thank goodness it was shut

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william#

Settler
Sep 5, 2005
531
0
sussex
when i was a nipper i never gave a flying where i camped bivi ed or where i lit a fire
though i was always very discreet
oh i miss those days but they are gone land is managed more and more and are indeed a financial concern for the owners .
these days i tend to not get into the woods as much as i use to as i am so aware of land owner ship (supose i got more than my fair share as a nipper).
i see no reason for using bcuk as a name to athorised only but the most organised events .
remember ,in other cases, use discretion and that old common sence , and def leave the sound system at home
lol
if we have to explain any more you wouldnt understand
lol
 

Lithril

Administrator
Admin
Jan 23, 2004
2,575
49
Southampton, UK
One thing I am concerned about is people using the BCUK name without Tonys authorisation. As far as I am aware the only official BCUK moots are run by Tony and this year is the Merthr Mawr meetup.

Can I make it totally clear that under no circumstances is anyone to use the BCUK name to describe a moot or camping without permission from Tony. There is no flexibility to this and anyone found doing so will be banned.

Matt
 

Great Pebble

Settler
Jan 10, 2004
775
2
51
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Hmmm.

Y'know.. I'm not at all sure that ID cards and the like are a good idea. Basically anything which makes BCUK anything more than a loose, internet connected "meeting place" for people of like mind is as apt to be problematic as it is to resolve problems.

If for instance, Pumbaa's "friend" had appeared with a "BCUK ID Card" to prove to that landowner that he was "official"?
And with the exception of matter where criminal charges forthcoming there would be little you could do other than ban said individual from the site and refuse to renew his membership. Financial liability for the actions of those who can "prove" they belong to the "BCUK Club" might also be a factor.

In various activities that I've been involved in, I've heard, usual extremely vocal, calls for "national organisation" and/or "representative bodies" to give practioners of A.N Other activity "a voice".

Sometimes it works. Usually I have to say, when thae activity is a fairly mainstream one, with truly sizable number of devotees. More often, and 'tis only my experience it's true, People can quickly discover that the "voice" they elected (or in some cases didn't) isn't saying what they want it to.

Equally you may find (again this is just my my experience) that if you're legal, decent, honest, truthful, careful, responsible, polite, tidy, yadda, yadda, yadda that you will achieve better results on your own than presenting yourself as part of any organisation.

All in all, I think it's fair to say I don't like "gangs" (clubs, societies, associations...same thing IMO). I'm in a few though :) They're low key, they don't have many rules, And nobody on what passes for their committies speaks for me. I just happen to like the club T-Shirt usually.

There's a rather obvious response waiting in the wings here, which is that there's no law forcing anyone to join. Which is true of course. However, if the organisation in question claims, as they often do, to represent the "hobby of whatever" in "wherever a location" then they do have an effect on anyone involved in the same interest. Kind of guilt by misassociation.

My ha'pence worth.
 
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Klenchblaize

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 25, 2005
2,591
127
63
Greensand Ridge
Sorry to say this but the genie is well and truly out of the bottle and isn’t going to be put back I’m afraid. “Naming and shaming” will do nothing more than raise the awareness of the problem (if there is one) and frankly the media will have a field day. Something along the lines of “Battle Of Survivalists Turns Ugly” springs to mind as just one. That’s right, please don’t rely on the Press to talk of the more caring Bushcrafter in reverent and sympathetic tones – especially when he is now so closely linked with a certain fondness for those long sharp things we are not supposed to carry about our person.

This is not at all rocket science but pretty much what happens whenever something becomes popular and cool and is sadly nothing more than I predicted in a thread some 12 months ago. It goes something like this: I’ve seen it on the TV. I’ve got the knife and Kelly kettle and I’m off to bl__dy well use them. Oh the stories I shall tell of my battle with nature when next in the pub. Should keep in free beers until at least next week!

As referred to elsewhere people looking for land to hunt over (mostly vermin control here in the UK) have endured this kind of disappointment for as long as I can remember due mostly to the actions of a small minority or just one estate owners bad experience of someone let loose on their land and who gets it wrong. It doesn’t therefore surprise me that people wishing to camp out and “do things” in the woods receive little sympathy, especially when the landowner can only envisage disturbance and heap big wood smoke.

Cheers
 

leon-1

Full Member
Great Pebble has a couple of very good points there and people should think on them.

The I told you so type of post doesn't help this situation in any way shape or form either.

As a personal opinion it would be nice if the Forestry commission could post on here asking for volunteers to help with woodland maintanence, likewise for the National parks authority asking for volunteers for any of thier projects.

BCUK is potentially a very large resource for them as a great many of us just love being outdoors, many are very much willing to learn and all of us have the enviroments best interests at heart.
 

Mantic

Nomad
May 9, 2006
268
4
51
UK
Great Pebble - The ID card thing was only a suggestion - the main aim would be to introduce a system whereby those people who wanted to take advantage of land owned by BCUK friendlees, should only be able to do so in a regulated fashion. And by regulated I mean controlled by BCUK chosen co-ordinators and land owners, not the BCUK members (chaos would ensue I fear).

Sure, we want to maintain a relaxed atmosphere here at BCUK (that goes without saying) but this wouldn't affect that - it would only involve a new level of control over those who actually use this facility and I doubt it would be everyone.

I also don't like regulated hobby groups with rules and orders and what not but you need to remember that we have an opportunity here to create a group dedicated to improving our hobby not just for a small number of people but for everyone and not just for now but for the future.

If it weren't for the Rammblers Association (for example) we wouldn't have the level of access to land we enjoy today. We benefit from the efforts of that charity despite having no affiliation or connection with them at all! They too started off as a small group of like minded individuals and I very much doubt that they enjoyed rules and regulations that much either.

Yes, we can continue in a low key fashion, hoping that everyone is neat and tidy and follows the country code but looking back, you'll find that this thread was started because (in some cases as pointed out by Pumbaa) that didn't appear to be happening. I know that I'm not going to cause any damage but you don't know that do you? How would you feel if I trounced through your favourite neck of the woods, laying waste to everything and turning the land owners against anyone who even mentions the word bushcraft.

Off-road driving is also having a seriously bad time at the moment. I read recently that a group of off-road drivers were stopped by another off-roader who warned them that the route they were taking was very wet and that continuing would damage the course excessively. The response he got was, "we don't care about that too much since we don't live around here". It's attitudes like that which destroy the hobby. I am suggesting we make a pre-emptive strike before it gets any harder to put up a tarp.

Sure, if you prefer nice small groups of hobbyists, that's fine but will you be happy to accept the advantages that have been won for you by other, larger groups?

Ultimately we can take the opportunity to decide if we're an information repository or whether we're something more.

Serously, I'm not having a go at you, just addressing your comments - we're all on the same team here :)

Leon-1 - nice idea but I think we should be contacting the Forestry Commision and asking them if they want us to help. There's also the Rambler's Association for keeping paths open, various Tent Camping Association could be helped - the list goes on.
 
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Ahjno

Vice-Adminral
Admin
Aug 9, 2004
6,849
39
Rotterdam (NL)
www.bushcraftuk.com
bambodoggy said:
Lol....if you were camped in my back garden Johan I'd set the dog on you! lol :nana: :D :D :D :nana:

:yikes:
:lmao:

This one?

image.php


or this one

Chihuahua%20in%20%20glasses.jpg


:lmao: :nana:

Shame though, I normally carry a good wine with me ;) :approve:

Lithril said:
One thing I am concerned about is people using the BCUK name without Tonys authorisation. <snip>
Matt
Tried to point that out, sort of ... but yours is way better ;)
 

Great Pebble

Settler
Jan 10, 2004
775
2
51
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Personally, I blame the Ramblers Association for a lot of the ill feeling in the countryside towards those seeking access for any purpose other than their own.
Landowners may have been forced to allow people to "roam" but they haven't been forced to be nice to them or allow any leeway with "roaming" is interpreted.

Personally, I don't want to be associated with anyone when I ask someone if I can stay on their land. Nor would I expect that anyone should want to be associated with me. You shouldn't have to carry my rep. nor live off it and vice versa. That doesn't mean that I'm in anyway anti-social, I enjoy meeting people outdoors and the cameraderie when you are in a group, planned or otherwise. I just don't relish being tarred with same brush as anyone, sure, it's something we all face anyway but with the right attitude you can convince people who are not entirely hostile to the idea that you are a worthy person to spend time on their property.

Attempting to "organise" or "co ordinate" such access, impinges upon everyone who spends time in open country, including those (and there's more than a few) who are not online or are unaware of BCUK, and even those who are aware of it and choose for whatever reason not to be a part of it.

One of the things that is most attractive about what, for want of a better term, I'll describe as "wild camping" is the onus that it places upon the individual to be self reliant and self responsible. If you are unable to convince a land owner that you are capable and trustworthy enough to be allowed access to their property, then maybe you should be looking at yourself rather than at others who have gone before.

There are of course situations in which the misdeeds of those who have passed before you will taint the experience of landowners to the point at which nothing you say or do will convince them that should give another stranger a chance.
That's tough. Take it on the chin and wander on to the next property...

Clearly, Pumbaa had a major problem. And I can readily understand why he is so upset. You cannot help but wonder though if the outcome would have been different if he and the original alleged transgressor had not both stated their common interest in this community.

I wild camp. I shoot, I off-road and I fish so I'm well used to the problems created by hooligan freelancers for the average Joe. I'm equally aware however (and it's particularly true of angling) just how frustrating it can be when a perfectly respectable, upstanding and otherwise wonderful group of people form a club or association which ends up with a virtual monopoly on the practise of an activity in a particular area. Although it must be said that angling clubs do balance things out a bit by keeping water courses stocked, as do shoots in their own fashion.

As it stands, you can avail of the goodwill, where it exists, between landowners and fellow BCUKers by availing of personal recommendation. This, I can assure you, will hold far more sway with most folk than any badge or membership of an organisation which can be purchaced for less than the cost of a night on the tiles. Neither does it bring with it the spectre (for the landowner) of being innundated with similar requests from everyone else with the same card who sees it as their "right" as a member of the "club".


FWIW if & when I ask folk if they mind if I pitch up in their lower ten, I don't usually follow it up immediately with "and do a little bushcraft"... I might ask, if the situation alllows, if a small fire is permissable. Usually I'll leave it at that.
I've yet to meet a landowner who wouldn't at some stage during the evening call to "make sure I was alright/see if I needed anything" , which is when you can have a wee chat about any more adventurous activities you might fancy.
 

pumbaa

Settler
Jan 28, 2005
687
2
47
dorset
I feel i should make this clear as it seems to have been misinturpreted .
There are 2 reasons as i see it for mentioning BCUK when aquiring land for the use off .

1. If you are trying to set up a meet for the peeps on here (return the favour if you will) . Something i have been trying to do for a while .

2. When you get the "what is bushcraft " question , its good to be able to point people in the direction of BCUK , so they dont think we are of to the woods for pubic haircuts (belive it or not i have had this situation where people genuinly think thats what bushcraft is !)

At the end of the day wether these are aceptable is down to Tony . So Tony , your Point of view please .
These are the only circumstances i have mentioned BCUK to Land owners . I dont think this is wrong , but Tonys word is final as far as i am concerned .
Pumbaa
 

Mantic

Nomad
May 9, 2006
268
4
51
UK
Great Pebble - Reasonable points and I agree with many of them. I would say that our points of view, though divergent, are not mutually exclusive - thus we can rest easy knowing that neither is stopping the other from doing what's important :)
 

nickg

Settler
May 4, 2005
890
5
67
Chatham
One of the problems with promoting the idea of BCUK (or any single organisation) as a reference or controlling authority is that it gives the 'powers that be' a single identifiable target upon whom they can impose restrictions and controls that affect the whole activity of bushcraft. It creates the situation that the controlling organisation must be held responsible for the activities (and misbehaviour) of ALL the members and individuals undertaking the activity. How can they accept this responsibility without imposing extensive authoritative controls and then policeing those controls? They will need extensive financing to support the full time infrastructure required to administrate the organisation. Where does this funding come from .. obviously some form of licensing at cost to the individual. So you then end up with the situation that in order to obtain the required licenses to indulge our activities we will need to have completed certain qualification courses .. at a cost; and belong to varoius support organisations & clubs .. at a cost. Personally I have seen this in my lifetime with several hobbies, target pistol shooting to name just one.. I am no longer able to do this.
Be VERY careful when you consider this route. I like bushcrafting, among other things, because of the very freedom that it gives me from burocracy.
It is far better for us to talk, give and accept advice, even 'go on a lot' through groups like BCUK and learn to improve our collective image through bieng seen to do it right than by organisational, burocratic control in any form.
Believe me.
 

nickg

Settler
May 4, 2005
890
5
67
Chatham
Nemisis said:
What about getting to know the land owners and offering our services or pointing out a few benifits mutual to both sides like clearing paths removing dead poss dangerous branches creating small clearings. These are only what we would do anyway and most of us go equipt to do these things axes bill hooks pangas etc. Bringing a little life back to otherwise neglected or ignored woodlands.
Dave.

Completely agree with you.
The kent meet have offered to help with groundcrealence etc at the littlehall pinetum where we meet. One of our active members is a tree surgeon and will be helping to fell a dead standing chestnut tree which is becoming dangerous. We have a great working relationship with the site management and are enjoying the benefits. And its fun work anyway so why not?
 

Mantic

Nomad
May 9, 2006
268
4
51
UK
Sure I might have implied that BCUK could be developed into an organisation which represents our hobby but it wasn't my only suggestion.

There is a happy middle ground - one in which BCUK takes a more active role in supporting the hobby for its members and only its members.
 

nickg

Settler
May 4, 2005
890
5
67
Chatham
Sure, I understand that and youre quite right, that it could be a good thing for us, absolutely. The insidious point is that forces outside our community can and will manipulate that good intention for their own purposes. Manouever us into an awkward (to say the least) position. The govt and the police for years have used this principle (they call it 'the ratchet') to do just that to many peoples pastimes. I can show you the dangerous dogs act & the firearms act as recent examples also look at what they are moving onto paintballers, kite flyers?? off roaders etc. One click at a time until they are bound and entangled.
Im NOT a conspiricy theorist or a paranoid - honest, and I meant my comments as a caution not a criticisim. I genuinely believe that BCUK's inititive has done more for the spread and takeup of bushcraft in the uk than possibly any other single factor including Mr Mears gospels, and this is borne out by the size and energy we all see on the site as well as at the meets etc.
I would simply hate to see it subverted into some quasi political mouthpiece by the burocrats in govt.
 

capacious

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 7, 2005
316
9
34
Swansea
I don't mean to spoil all the fun here, but if you look at all the suggestions of how to get around the access problems, solely for BCUK members, and all the faffing around it involves, can you really honestly believe that the land owner (who will certainly have better things to with his time) could be even slightly bothered to do so? Think about it practically - it is IMPOSSIBLE to have 'ID' cards for access. Do you think that the land owner will wait at the gate to check you for ID? Or do you expect him to set up perimeter fencing, and have a thumb-print and retinal scan for entry at the gate?

The ONLY way to have freedom in the land is to go to Scotland. And what is wrong with that? Scotland is beautiful. I was there for a month in April/May. And I didn't meet ONE SINGLE land owner. It was pretty much perfect, actually.

Jake.
 
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leon-1

Full Member
capacious said:
I don't mean to spoil all the fun here, but if you look at all the suggestions of how to get around the access problems, solely for BCUK members, and all the faffing around it involves, can you really honestly believe that the land owner (who will certainly have better things to with his time) could be even slightly bothered to do so? Think about it practically - it is IMPOSSIBLE to have 'ID' cards for access. Do you think that the land owner will wait at the gate to check you for ID? Or do you expect him to set up perimeter fencing, and have a thumb-print and retinal scan for entry at the gate?

The ONLY way to have freedom in the land is to go to Scotland. And what is wrong with that? Scotland is beautiful. I was there for a month in April/May. And I didn't meet ONE SINGLE land owner. It was pretty much perfect, actually.

Jake.

At no stage has any of the mods or admin suggested that ID Cards or anything else be issued.

What we have said is that you should do what you would do with any land owner, get to know them, offer to help them and ask them that once they are happy that you are safe and sensible that you may be allowed to use the land.

This is fair, the arrangement is reciprocal and both parties get something from it. You will of demonstrated that you are both carefull and competent and you will be looking after a mutual interest.
 

Mantic

Nomad
May 9, 2006
268
4
51
UK
capacious said:
I don't mean to spoil all the fun here, but if you look at all the suggestions of how to get around the access problems, solely for BCUK members, and all the faffing around it involves, can you really honestly believe that the land owner (who will certainly have better things to with his time) could be even slightly bothered to do so? Think about it practically - it is IMPOSSIBLE to have 'ID' cards for access. Do you think that the land owner will wait at the gate to check you for ID? Or do you expect him to set up perimeter fencing, and have a thumb-print and retinal scan for entry at the gate?

The ONLY way to have freedom in the land is to go to Scotland. And what is wrong with that? Scotland is beautiful. I was there for a month in April/May. And I didn't meet ONE SINGLE land owner. It was pretty much perfect, actually.

Jake.

You're taking one tiny part of my suggestion and blowing it out of proportion mate. I originally said 'possibly' create ID cards and then later went on to remind everyone that it was only a suggestion.

Look, the idea behind my intial 'suggestion' was that if BCUK, through its members, could locate a few reasonable land owners who might be willing to allow us access to their land then great. If they could be local to as many members as poss, even better. Furthermore, if BCUK could maintain some sensible control over it, then we reduce the risk of encountering the stigma that Poombaa mentioned when he started this (or rather the original) thread off.

As for the faffing around, faffing on whose part? I think you'll find that there are quite a few people here who are more than happy to 'faff' about on your behest - they're called moderators.

Your suggestion of Scotland is great - I love Scotland, and you're right, access is very reasonable. I presume that you will be happy to ferry us all there whenever we choose. I mean, my living in Bristol, hey, it's only like 6 hours drive by car.

I think I'll nip up there tomrrow, just for the day like ;)
 

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