thank goodness it was shut
- Thread starter william#
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
I know the thread has been closed and I'm not trying to continue it here, but I think nobody should be using the BCUK name, for any reasons, to gain anything other than things that are sanctioned by BCUK. It's primarily a resource and forum site and BCUK cannot be held responsable for the actions of individuals who are members of the site. If people are using the BCUK name to be allowed to camp or for discount or any other reason then they shouldn't be.
The original thread was locked because of unsubstantiated allegations and suppositions.
This one can go the same way for the same reasons.
Tread carefully.
This one can go the same way for the same reasons.
Tread carefully.
BorderReiver said:The original thread was locked because of unsubstantiated allegations and suppositions.
This one can go the same way for the same reasons.
Tread carefully.
Fair comment. I was not refering to incidents in the other thread I was commenting in general and am not supposing or alleging anything.
I know of no one who has done this. I'm just saying 'IF' anyone is using the BCUK name they shouldn't be. We all have a duty to each other as members of the site not to sully BCUK There was nothing unsubstantial about it ! All i was trying to do is organise a moot in dorset for the benifit of the members here . How do you do that without mentioning BCUK ?
And doors ARE being closed due to a thread where a few people on here were saying "just go and camp anyway , what can they do ?"
Maybe some of what i put may have been airing frustration at the fact that these planks want to ruin it for everybody ! But the FACTS still remain so .
WHEN next this site is check by these people they will now see a locked thread where i was trying to reactify the situation , this just says "we couldnt give a flying #@*$ !!!"
All i can say is think what you like , but this has happened several times too me personaly , and i know that the same has happened to other members .
Deny it if you like , but that attitude doesnt help .
The point of my thread was to make members think before promoting illegal camping which with a knife or axe would be considered armed trespass and to try and rectify the point of view that BCUK is receiving .
Pumbaa
And doors ARE being closed due to a thread where a few people on here were saying "just go and camp anyway , what can they do ?"
Maybe some of what i put may have been airing frustration at the fact that these planks want to ruin it for everybody ! But the FACTS still remain so .
WHEN next this site is check by these people they will now see a locked thread where i was trying to reactify the situation , this just says "we couldnt give a flying #@*$ !!!"
All i can say is think what you like , but this has happened several times too me personaly , and i know that the same has happened to other members .
Deny it if you like , but that attitude doesnt help .
The point of my thread was to make members think before promoting illegal camping which with a knife or axe would be considered armed trespass and to try and rectify the point of view that BCUK is receiving .
Pumbaa
Pumbaa if that was what you implied then the thread would have remained open for discussion. This is the second one you have ranted on. Please desist.
The thread in question clearly spelled out the legalities of wild camping, etc.
In the UK there are no cohesive laws for the entire land mass. In Scotland what was proposed is considered perfectly acceptable, it is not in England.
The fact that the land was 'public' and no damage was being intended, despite intense despoilation by others to the site, is as much a part of the thread as the 'negative' overtones that have so offended you. If whoever has apparantly refused you access based their decision on this one thread, out of thousands, it's a very specious arguement.
Time to put this to rest until it can be done in a less confrontational way.
Toddy
The thread in question clearly spelled out the legalities of wild camping, etc.
In the UK there are no cohesive laws for the entire land mass. In Scotland what was proposed is considered perfectly acceptable, it is not in England.
The fact that the land was 'public' and no damage was being intended, despite intense despoilation by others to the site, is as much a part of the thread as the 'negative' overtones that have so offended you. If whoever has apparantly refused you access based their decision on this one thread, out of thousands, it's a very specious arguement.
Time to put this to rest until it can be done in a less confrontational way.
Toddy
I feel that I need to say something in support of the site here, although I'm sure that the point being raised is not an attempt to tar us all with the same brush.
In the past I had not really given landowners a lot of thought, for what reason, well actually none other than they never came up in my planning but here's the thing.
This was all before I joined BCUK. Now I'm not trying to shine a light up the sites rear here, but having had a number of discussions with members such as Wayne on this site my ignorant ways have been put right! This change of heart is down to BCUK, and only BCUK.
Now I've seen a number of threads about where to camp and I support those who discuss respecting the landowner and his/her rights I would only suggest legal sites that I'm aware of.
I have to say that I've never seen threads supporting illegal camping and to be honest if I had, I would be rather disappointed having been re-educated right here.
Now here's the legal bit, I'm a training officer for a law firm but this isn't my area however, I have to say that I have read both threads and I can't see anything that has warranted the comments that have been made. You see it's all about the evidence and personally I haven't seen any. If you say someone has given BCUK name when entering land what evidence do you have, anything other than you seeing the person doing this, you seeing them do it, you see them misbehaving and finally you can identify the individual is circumstantial, if you are saying you have a way of identifying them on the site well there's a whole other issue there which is one a data protection problem. If there are other legal colleaques on here who know more on this than I perhaps they would have a take on it.
If this is an issue then it's something that should be drawn to the Mods and Tony's attention and I would suggest that there's no place for the mud throwing and name calling.
Please don't take this personally, but you need to be very careful when you start down this path so for one I think we need to draw a line under this.
Pib
In the past I had not really given landowners a lot of thought, for what reason, well actually none other than they never came up in my planning but here's the thing.
This was all before I joined BCUK. Now I'm not trying to shine a light up the sites rear here, but having had a number of discussions with members such as Wayne on this site my ignorant ways have been put right! This change of heart is down to BCUK, and only BCUK.
Now I've seen a number of threads about where to camp and I support those who discuss respecting the landowner and his/her rights I would only suggest legal sites that I'm aware of.
I have to say that I've never seen threads supporting illegal camping and to be honest if I had, I would be rather disappointed having been re-educated right here.
Now here's the legal bit, I'm a training officer for a law firm but this isn't my area however, I have to say that I have read both threads and I can't see anything that has warranted the comments that have been made. You see it's all about the evidence and personally I haven't seen any. If you say someone has given BCUK name when entering land what evidence do you have, anything other than you seeing the person doing this, you seeing them do it, you see them misbehaving and finally you can identify the individual is circumstantial, if you are saying you have a way of identifying them on the site well there's a whole other issue there which is one a data protection problem. If there are other legal colleaques on here who know more on this than I perhaps they would have a take on it.
If this is an issue then it's something that should be drawn to the Mods and Tony's attention and I would suggest that there's no place for the mud throwing and name calling.
Please don't take this personally, but you need to be very careful when you start down this path so for one I think we need to draw a line under this.
Pib
In the interest of stopping threads like this from being opened and then closed, might I suggest (along with others) that Pumbaa raise his concerns through PMs to the mods. It's their site, let them decide if anything is to happen or not.
I think I'm right by saying that most of us here aren't disagreeing with everything that you're saying Pumbaa, just how it's being said. If the mods don't like your tone, they'll close the thread - it really is that simple (and hey, it's their site and so their rules).
Just my twopenneth.
I think I'm right by saying that most of us here aren't disagreeing with everything that you're saying Pumbaa, just how it's being said. If the mods don't like your tone, they'll close the thread - it really is that simple (and hey, it's their site and so their rules).
Just my twopenneth.
BCUK does not condone or encourage any action which may be deemed as illegal, which includes using land which people are not authorised to do so.
What BCUK does condone is the safe and legal use of land with the relevant landowners or authorities consent.
This is an area where there is no grey, you either have consent or rights to camp or you have not.
If you camp illegally (I would discourage you from doing this) and get caught that is your fault, take the consequences on the chin as an adult, but don't bring BCUK into the frame.
Pumbaa I commend you for trying to set up a meet and for doing the correct thing by asking the relevant authorities permission.
I will put this in bold so that people do not miss it
BCUK does not condone or encourage any action which may be deemed as illegal, which includes using land which people are not authorised to do so.
What BCUK does condone is the safe and legal use of land with the relevant landowners or authorities consent.
What BCUK does condone is the safe and legal use of land with the relevant landowners or authorities consent.
This is an area where there is no grey, you either have consent or rights to camp or you have not.
If you camp illegally (I would discourage you from doing this) and get caught that is your fault, take the consequences on the chin as an adult, but don't bring BCUK into the frame.
Pumbaa I commend you for trying to set up a meet and for doing the correct thing by asking the relevant authorities permission.
I will put this in bold so that people do not miss it
BCUK does not condone or encourage any action which may be deemed as illegal, which includes using land which people are not authorised to do so.
What BCUK does condone is the safe and legal use of land with the relevant landowners or authorities consent.
Umm, looks like I missed the fun
pumbaa, thanks for bringing it up, this is something that does concern me and Leon has stated the position of Bushcraft UK quite concisely and extremely accurately.
I think that its sad if members have caused problems for other members that are trying to do good things, which should be applauded and supported. I also have to say that Im disappointed in people that might read the forum and take what someone says in a thread as the stance of Bushcraft UK, fair enough, the odd comment may slip through but nearly every mention of wild camping and the like is followed by posts saying it shouldnt be done and that the best way is to contact land owners, ask friends, contact the land registry etc to find out who the right person to ask is. This is the type of advice people are constantly offered and yet someone deems that we support wild camping, I can do nought but shake my head at that.
pumbaa, if theres anything I can do to help you out then let me know, I totally understand your frustration and Ill do what I can.
Everyone needs to step back a bit and look at the big picture, theres far more good done here than bad, people just need to make sure theyve got things in context, that includes us and those we have to deal with .As I said before, Leons post is spot on.
pumbaa, thanks for bringing it up, this is something that does concern me and Leon has stated the position of Bushcraft UK quite concisely and extremely accurately.
I think that its sad if members have caused problems for other members that are trying to do good things, which should be applauded and supported. I also have to say that Im disappointed in people that might read the forum and take what someone says in a thread as the stance of Bushcraft UK, fair enough, the odd comment may slip through but nearly every mention of wild camping and the like is followed by posts saying it shouldnt be done and that the best way is to contact land owners, ask friends, contact the land registry etc to find out who the right person to ask is. This is the type of advice people are constantly offered and yet someone deems that we support wild camping, I can do nought but shake my head at that.
pumbaa, if theres anything I can do to help you out then let me know, I totally understand your frustration and Ill do what I can.
Everyone needs to step back a bit and look at the big picture, theres far more good done here than bad, people just need to make sure theyve got things in context, that includes us and those we have to deal with .As I said before, Leons post is spot on.
Thanks Tony ,
I know that i sometimes dont put things quite right and my point may end up lost .
Now i am a tad calmer , i still find this fraustrating .
I completely agree with the stance BCUK has on this matter , after all it is the right one . I know you and Leon are aware of some of the things that i am trying to do down here , and your support is appreciated .
If there was something that would be of use in rectifying this situation i would be one of the first to implement it , but i am not sure what can be done .
I am not the only one that has had this situation occur , but i feel it is up to others to speak out or keep it to themselves if they wish .
I would personaly like to see BCUK being in the forefront of the bushcraft scene , unfortunately this does include politics (curse those politics) , but we have the opertunity too get things moving for wild camping . This is something i would like to be instamental in getting done , the right way .
I appologise if any members have taken offence at my posts , that was not my intention .
If anyone has any ideas on how to open these doors please let me know , i have way too much time on my hands and it would be good to gain a blanket permission for BCUK to wild camp in some of these beautiful areas accross our country , or even designated areas .
cheers
Pumbaa
I know that i sometimes dont put things quite right and my point may end up lost .
Now i am a tad calmer , i still find this fraustrating .
I completely agree with the stance BCUK has on this matter , after all it is the right one . I know you and Leon are aware of some of the things that i am trying to do down here , and your support is appreciated .
If there was something that would be of use in rectifying this situation i would be one of the first to implement it , but i am not sure what can be done .
I am not the only one that has had this situation occur , but i feel it is up to others to speak out or keep it to themselves if they wish .
I would personaly like to see BCUK being in the forefront of the bushcraft scene , unfortunately this does include politics (curse those politics) , but we have the opertunity too get things moving for wild camping . This is something i would like to be instamental in getting done , the right way .
I appologise if any members have taken offence at my posts , that was not my intention .
If anyone has any ideas on how to open these doors please let me know , i have way too much time on my hands and it would be good to gain a blanket permission for BCUK to wild camp in some of these beautiful areas accross our country , or even designated areas .
cheers
Pumbaa
It's a tricky one but here are my suggestions:
1. Determine who owns the land.
2. Write to them advising them of our good intent.
3. Possibly create ID cards for BCUK members but only after subs have been paid / cost of card has been paid / minimum number of posts on forum made / etc (take your pick).
4. Single (or minimal) point of contact for each landowner (PoC).
The system could work as follows:
A. BCUK member wishing to camp at chosen area contacts forum mod who advises PoC.
B. PMs go back and forth between PoC and member to ascertain requirements - PoC determines if request is acceptable.
C. PoC contacts landowner requesting BCUK member access to land.
D. BCUK member uses land, taking ID card with them for identification (if required).
I think that it would be important that BCUK members contact PoV prior to accessing land rather than allowing carte blanche access at all times. This way, the system could be moderated, access to the land could be controlled and any wrong doing on our part would be recorded (and suitable action taken).
Sound reasonable?
1. Determine who owns the land.
2. Write to them advising them of our good intent.
3. Possibly create ID cards for BCUK members but only after subs have been paid / cost of card has been paid / minimum number of posts on forum made / etc (take your pick).
4. Single (or minimal) point of contact for each landowner (PoC).
The system could work as follows:
A. BCUK member wishing to camp at chosen area contacts forum mod who advises PoC.
B. PMs go back and forth between PoC and member to ascertain requirements - PoC determines if request is acceptable.
C. PoC contacts landowner requesting BCUK member access to land.
D. BCUK member uses land, taking ID card with them for identification (if required).
I think that it would be important that BCUK members contact PoV prior to accessing land rather than allowing carte blanche access at all times. This way, the system could be moderated, access to the land could be controlled and any wrong doing on our part would be recorded (and suitable action taken).
Sound reasonable?
Do we? I don't think we go on enough. We're losing access to land at a faster rate than ever before - we should be fighting to save our hobby and protecting the environment to safeguard such freedom, ensuring that they remain available for future generations.
If we don't, we'll lose the lot.
If we don't, we'll lose the lot.
Mantic said:Do we? I don't think we go on enough. We're losing access to land at a faster rate than ever before - we should be fighting to save our hobby and protecting the environment to safeguard such freedom, ensuring that they remain available for future generations.
If we don't, we'll lose the lot.
Here Here
Pumbaa
What about getting to know the land owners and offering our services or pointing out a few benifits mutual to both sides like clearing paths removing dead poss dangerous branches creating small clearings. These are only what we would do anyway and most of us go equipt to do these things axes bill hooks pangas etc. Bringing a little life back to otherwise neglected or ignored woodlands.
Dave.
Dave.
If lack of access to suitable land to pursue a peaceful low impact recreational pasttime is the problem, then I believe that we need to be talking about taking action to change the law regarding access and not blaming it all on a few wild campers. I understand the position of the forum admins and am not advocating anythin illegal at all. I just think that the problem lies with government and landowners rather than the humble rambler whatever their actions. I had enough of subservience and grovelling for a basic right a long time ago.
Flux
Flux
AND NOW THERE'S OUR BEACHES http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=1964&&&edition=1&ttl=20060530131757
Mantic said:
Sounds reasonable
Point with BCUK ID cards is, if you use:
- paid subscription: not every member can't / will not pay for such a subscription. Compare (although not in whole) with BCUK Full Membership.
- certain amount of posts: That'll attract some nutters posting just rubbish (or just in the 'Welcome' section ...) to boost up their post account, to gain a pass.
That would mean before you gain (don't know if that's the correct word it, if it isn't please excuse me and teach me
) a pass you (a specially appointed Mod (?) would need to check every single post before sending out a pass.Other comments, and not related to Mantic's post:
Other option would be to use your normal ID papers (drivers license, passport, etc.).
We could come to an agreement with all BCUK members: we show the aforementioned ID to the landowner (now he knows your real name, so no more "I'm John Doe, from BCUK" While your real name is Igor Stradivlovsky) and incist he checks together with you the land after you did your bushcrafty things. The landowner sees his land is looked after and you (BCUK) don't get :BlueTeamE
Extra safety catch can be built in by making some sort of database. Give the landwner prior bushcrafting (when you ask permission) a code unique to your person (like: 12a34bc5) and an BCUK e-mail adress to check if you are really you. If troubles arise: the landowner knows who you are (he'd seen your passport) and can report it to Admin by quoting name and number (cross reference / double check).
Thing is to make these codes unique and in such a way you can't easily come up with a made up one on someone else his / her name.
I do understand all mentioned options give a lot of a hussle for the landowner ... and therefor I doubt it'll work and if we really need such a system.
Best option would be to be fair and honest, use your common sence: you're a guest on ones land - that's a privilege, show you really are worth BCUK membership (if you are one, and if you're not you still have to, because you're otherwise not a bushcrafter but just a vandal) to carry out everything what BCUK stands for.
I think you wouldn't appreciate it if I came along, camped on your land and misbehaved would you.
As an aside ...
I don't know on what scale BCUK is known in the UK by the general public. But I don't see the point in mentioning you are a BCUK member. If you have a badge, that should say enough (Tony got them, if anyone is interested
).Do you really get (in some areas, as Pumbaa had some troubles) easier acces when you say you're from BCUK???
For now ...
I'm off to do some more study
