Survival air rifle, modified, sawn-off, easily packable

[lub0]

A .410 will kill a wood pigeon easily within its appropriate range.

It sounds to me as though your fellow allotment holder is a Walt - that "pathetic bird shot" is carrying about 600 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle - as opposed to the 12 ft lbs from an air rifle. Now the shot spreads, but even a quarter of that shot at thirty yards will be carrying far more enery than a pellet.

If its vermin control, you use the most efficient tool - Ed Cook demonstrated the efficiency of a .410 on an estate with a significant rabbit problem

As he puts it



Red

It's incredible the kill count some people can achieve, they must be seriously skilled in hunting vermin as a hunter myself I appreciate how difficult it is to stalk these little critters. And rik_uk3 I would imagine bunnies are more susceptible to birdshot than birds as they do not posses the thick coat of armour-like feathers to protect them. I swear even with my 11.6ft lb HW80 if you don't hit a pidgeon precisely in the neck or head, even at ranges as close as 8 meters he will survive and fly away as long as you havn't hit it's wing. Feathers are surprisingly tough! I believe 12ft lbs is close to 500ft/s of energy... so not massively different to a shotgun!

So whats the effective range of a 410? I recall my friend telling me he had to be almost on top of them to ensure a clean kill, pidgeon that is! I bet you could kill an bunny a lot further away than a pidegon.

As you can probably tell I'm not a fan of shotguns at all and would love to upgrade my HW80 to a silenced .22 LR however I could never justify owning one as I don't have land of my own and my little permission is just that... too little! It took me nearly two years to become familiar with all aspects of air rifle shooting/hunting, and about £400 to get the second hand HW80 shooting sweetly with a nice s/h Leupold sitting on top. With real firearms you just point and shoot... air gunning is easily the most difficult and skilled form of shooting there is, which I find nothing but annoying to be honest, however once you have a tuned and zeroed setup you are good to go.

p.s have you heard of the single shot 9mm parabellum rifles, innocuously referred to as "backyard guns" by many?

 

[British Red]

You are confusing feet per second with ft lbs Lub0. Ft lbs is a measure of energy. Ft /s is a measure of velocity

a .410 cartridge deliver 600 ft lbs of energy, your air rifle under 12 ft lbs of energy, so yes, a huge difference - at the muzzle the .410 delivers 50 times as much energy.

Now the shotgun pellets spread and the intent is not to have them all hit the target - but the idea of them being deflected by feathers is laughable.

I use .410 up to thirty yards or so with No. 6 shot and it will comfortably fold a pigeon up at that range. With heavier shot or more choke it could be extended, but I'll just move up to a 12 bore if I want more range.

A moderated .22 is a useful tool on rabbits (they aren't actually silenced), but so is a .22 centrefire or what have you. I can assure you - owning rifles, shotguns and airguns that none of them are "just point and shoot" - and nor is air gunning "the most difficult and skilled form of shooting".

Red

 

[lub0]

I've used a moderated .22 LR with a NV scope fox and rabbit hunting on a game farm in Wrexham for a month and they are indeed point and shoot out to 60 meters and have very predictable and reliable hold-overs for up to 100 meters. Air rifles however are a whole different ball game with weird arcing flight paths and extreme sensitivity to wind, so air rifles certainly are the most advanced form of shooting there is. You have to be very highly skilled to use one effectively in the field. My all time greatest shot with my 11.6ft HW80 was at 65 meters with a strong west to east wind. The target was a plastic full sized pidgeon mounted on a fence post. The xhair on my fixed 4 power leupold was really, really far up and left of the target. After about 10 tries I eventually hit it and was ecstatic as I heard the loud thump of the pellet hitting home. With a .22 LR I would at most of had to hold over and left just a fraction.

If what you say about the .410 cartridge is true then either my friend was using some sort of dud ammo and/or is a rubbish marksman, haha!
I thought 12ft lbs equated to around 480 ft/s? I cannot find the online calculator to check again, though.

edit: I can see I got confused with the energy formula, thought you were talking in ft/s but can see you meant 600 ft /lbs which is indeed a lot of energy! Wonder why my friend was saying how hard it is the kill woodies with a 410..?

 

[British Red]

12 ft lbs doesn't equate to any velocity at all lub0, I thought I had already explained that it is a measure of energy. All sorts of bullets and shot weigh different amounts. A given measure of energy will result in wildly different velocities depending on the mass of the projectile(s)

I would suggest going to a proper shooting club and learning the basics

Red

 

[lub0]

Red in this video the 12ga birdshot does some devastating damage, I'm curious if this ammo is available in the UK as I was under the impression we can only buy underpowered cartridges here. And I do know about energy and velocity, in fact I have a combro myself, I just misread your figures is all. So a .410 is 600 ft lbs power? That's crazy, I honestly didn't think shotguns were all that powerful with birdshot in them. Buckshot on the other hand....

 

[British Red]

Again, Lub0 You misunderstand energy. Birdshot, buckshot, the energy is the same. All that changes is the amount of shot. We don't call it buckshot, we use the SG / LG naming convention.

SG has 9 of .32 calibre lead balls in a one ounce load. No. 6 shot has 225 projectiles. Both cary the same energy if proppeled by the same charge as the mass of lead is the same.

Birdshot shoots a more complete pattern, buckshot has greater penetration - its a matter of "right load for the job". A bird could fly through a buckshot pattern at 40 yards and be missed completely - but birdshot would not penetrate a larger animal.

The 600 ft lbs on a .410 is a fairly lightweight cartridge. A 12 bore shooting bird shot can produce 1800 foot lbs. Most large centre fire rifles produce more than that - in order to be deer legal, you have to produce over 1700 ft lbs for all species above Roe.

Heck some guns produce 30+ ft lbs of recoil energy!

 

[lub0]

I thought buckshot contains a more energetic propellant like cordite and birdshot a slower-burning flaked smokeless powder and that accounted for the huge power difference.

 

[sasquatch]

Yup, they call a .410 a bird gun with good reason.

 

[British Red]

I thought buckshot contains a more energetic propellant like cordite and birdshot a slower-burning flaked smokeless powder and that accounted for the huge power difference.

Nope both can use the same propellant, its about accelerating a weight of shot contained in a wad against which the gas exerts pressure. The size of the shot inside the wad is wholly irrelevant.

 

[British Red]

p.s have you heard of the single shot 9mm parabellum rifles, innocuously referred to as "backyard guns" by many?

You are thinking of a 9mm garden gun. Its a pretty low power cartridge producing only about 100 ft lbs of energy - suitable only for close range rat use around buildings really. Useful on a fast moving squeaker in a barn but thats it really

 

[bushwacker bob]

the one I had was 9mm rimfire.

 

[British Red]

Yep, thats the puppy "9mm Flobert" if you are being posh!