Something for the plinkers

[santaman2000]

.....Want to hit the target? Never "shoot from the hip". Hollywood invented that. Looks good on film, but you miss a human size target over 10 meters.

Not completely true. Hollywood didn't invent it; it's actually part of the qualification drills for police. Most drills teach to shoot from a two handed grip and stance, HOWEVER! Since most true gunfights occur at LESS THAN seven FEET (much, much, much less than ten meters) most drills are at much closer range.

What Hollywood invented was the idea that handgun fights occur at longer ranges. They're up close and instantaneous (over as soon as they start)

The "hip shot" drill in this case revolves around a more realistic scenario: the attacker is within reach of the defender and the defender is using his/her weak hand to push away the attacker while drawing and firing.

Is it dangerous? Absolutely, but so is a gunfight. Especially if you haven't trained for reality.

 

[Janne]

Not completely true. Hollywood didn't invent it; it's actually part of the qualification drills for police. Most drills teach to shoot from a two handed grip and stance, HOWEVER! Since most true gunfights occur at LESS THAN seven FEET (much, much, much less than ten meters) most drills are at much closer range.

What Hollywood invented was the idea that handgun fights occur at longer ranges. They're up close and instantaneous (over as soon as they start)

The "hip shot" drill in this case revolves around a more realistic scenario: the attacker is within reach of the defender and the defender is using his/her weak hand to push away the attacker while drawing and firing.

Is it dangerous? Absolutely, but so is a gunfight. Especially if you haven't trained for reality.

I think the police in Europe train differently than in north America. The gun culture is different.
As far as I know there is no competition discipline where shots are done from the hip. Not even when the target is around 3 meters away.
I need to ask next Saturday one if our RO's if a hip shot is allowed or an DQ situation.

 

[Robson Valley]

I suspect that you will find that the quick-draw championships are pretty much shoot-ftom-the-hip. And my goodness are they fast, shooting agianst the clock.

For some years, I enjoyed shooting International Handgun Metallic Silhouette. You can hear the clang on a 200m ram right through your muffs.
While a .44mag pistol might work on a good day, I tried to be positive with a 7mm/.308 Unlimited bolt action pistol in Creedmore position.
Put this on your bucket list.

Anything at all is accurate at handshaking distance.

 

[santaman2000]

I think the police in Europe train differently than in north America. The gun culture is different.
As far as I know there is no competition discipline where shots are done from the hip. Not even when the target is around 3 meters away.
I need to ask next Saturday one if our RO's if a hip shot is allowed or an DQ situation.

I don't know of any competitions here that do either. (not modern police competitions) The drills I was describing are actual training and annual qualification drills. And the particular one from the hip is NOT at 3 meters. It's much, much closer. Less than arm's length. Like I said, you "push the attacker away" with your weak hand as you draw your weapon and fire.

Think a minute about a real police gunfight. You're ALWAYS going to be in the same room with each other; most often across the same table from each other. If outdoors, across the hood of the same car. Long distance just isn't an issue in 99% of the incidents.

But as Robson Valley said, most of the CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) competitions have at least one event from the hip.

 

[Janne]

I suspect that you will find that the quick-draw championships are pretty much shoot-ftom-the-hip. And my goodness are they fast, shooting agianst the clock.

For some years, I enjoyed shooting International Handgun Metallic Silhouette. You can hear the clang on a 200m ram right through your muffs.
While a .44mag pistol might work on a good day, I tried to be positive with a 7mm/.308 Unlimited bolt action pistol in Creedmore position.
Put this on your bucket list.

Anything at all is accurate at handshaking distance.

I used to hoot Silhuette too, many years ago.
Ruger Super Redhawk, .44Mag. Steel sights and a Burris scope. Made my own ammo, light bulletd and compressed powder. Norma 123 I recall? More that 20 years ago.
I remember that I managed a higher VO and flatter trajectory with Norma than Vihtavuori.

I always wanted a TC Contender in 308 Winchester as I had the ammo for free but got declined for a permit several times so I gave up.

 

[Janne]

I don't know of any competitions here that do either. (not modern police competitions) The drills I was describing are actual training and annual qualification drills. And the particular one from the hip is NOT at 3 meters. It's much, much closer. Less than arm's length. Like I said, you "push the attacker away" with your weak hand as you draw your weapon and fire.

Think a minute about a real police gunfight. You're ALWAYS going to be in the same room with each other; most often across the same table from each other. If outdoors, across the hood of the same car. Long distance just isn't an issue in 99% of the incidents.

But as Robson Valley said, most of the CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) competitions have at least one event from the hip.

If we believe the media, most of the perps are shot lying down or with the hands up?

No Cowboy shooting in Europe either! I think most Cowboys were too poor to own a state of the art gun like a Colt .45. More likely they had a shotgun or an old ex Army rifle.
Not much use for a revolver.

 

[Robson Valley]

Yeah, A TC in .308 would be OK.. The 7mm IHMSA pill was flatter and better in the wind at 200m.
Cowboy Action is pistol, shotgun and rifle, by definition. 19" s/s 12ga shotguns are a hoot to shoot against flying targets.

Quick-Draw is a shot against the clock, usually at a balloon.
I can't see of even an un-intelligent reason why this could not be set up with air/C02 pistols and revolvers.
You watch some YouTubes of the LasVegas finals in "Quick-Draw." Extraordinary until you get some slo-mo to see what they actually do.

 

[pysen78]

Check out this old Bob Munden for some incredible from the hip shooting. Apologies for the lousy quality, but the slow motion shots still take the cake. https://youtu.be/XsU5AMxvlKg

 

[Janne]

I recommend you check out Jerry Miculek on Youtube.
Is considered the worlds fastest shooter.

Not that it will make me any better shooter, but I have a model 929 waiting to be picked up in Miami.

 

[santaman2000]

..... I think most Cowboys were too poor to own a state of the art gun like a Colt .45. More likely they had a shotgun or an old ex Army rifle.
Not much use for a revolver.

Probably lots of truth to this. In fact true cowboys (the ones who drove the cattle herds from Texas to the markets in Kansas) only lasted a few years and was mostly over before cartridge guns anyway. But our penchant for calling anybody from that era and area a "cowboy" includes a lot of folks who did carry Colts as well as others.

 

[boatman]

Cap and ball revolvers were common surely?

 

[boatman]

Wasn't it those crossing on the wagon trains that most often had a two-barreled shotgun? Versatile and cheap they were everywhere.

http://www.guns.com/2011/12/12/shotguns-the-guns-that-really-won-the-west/

 

[Janne]

As they had to travel fairly light, I imagine a revolver would not be chosen. Bad accurancy, no use for one. Shotgun or rifle is better for shooting food.
Yes, cap and ball would have been common post Civil War.
The 1873 Colt was first issued to the Army, and I guess it would take a couple of years before it was accessible for civilians.

I would imadine that most civilians ( that could afford) a new handgun would get a S&W model 3.
Imho that is a much, much better gun. Faster to reload.
I read somewhere that the drovers ( = cowboys) were not allowed to carry guns, as an accidental discharge would cause the herd of semi wild cows to stampede.

I also read ( same publication?) that the drovers had a very short life expectancy, many died from pneumonia and other diseases.
Badly paid job.

 

[Robson Valley]

I think to this day the short-barrelled, 12 ga side-by-side shotguns are still called "coach guns."
I had one but it didn't have exposed hammers. From Boito/Brazil.
One of very few shotguns that I truely regret selling.

 

[santaman2000]

Cap and ball revolvers were common surely?

They were certainly common on the frontier. The question is were they common on the cattle drives? Much of what I've read indicates they weren't.

 

[santaman2000]

As they had to travel fairly light, I imagine a revolver would not be chosen. Bad accuracy, no use for one....

Their use was almost always for fighting; and again, you're overthinking the need for accuracy in close combat. Reliability is paramount.

 

[santaman2000]

....I would imadine that most civilians ( that could afford) a new handgun would get a S&W model 3.
Imho that is a much, much better gun. Faster to reload. ....

The loading gate on the Colt was one of its primary advantages. Loading on horseback on the run was far less likely to spill cartridges from an open chamber (something that was a problem with top breaking revolvers) That said, there were certainly a number of professionals that preferred the early Colt and S&W double actions and single actions: Jesse James carried a S&W Model 3 and John Wesley Hardin carried a Colt 41 caliber double action Model 1877.

 

[santaman2000]

........I read somewhere that the drovers ( = cowboys) were not allowed to carry guns, as an accidental discharge would cause the herd of semi wild cows to stampede.

I also read ( same publication?) that the drovers had a very short life expectancy, many died from pneumonia and other diseases.
Badly paid job.

Most of what I've read agrees about fear of stampeding herds being one of reasons they rarely carried, but I haven't seen anything about it being prohibited.

Most of the cowboys (drovers) only made one, or at most, two such trips. It wasn't their regular employment as such. They commonly came from other vocations and needed the extra cash offered by the cattle drives. Short life expectancies would have been common among everybody at the time and place. Bad water, no doctors, dangerous work (all outdoor work at the time) poor diet, etc.

 

[Janne]

Their use was almost always for fighting; and again, you're overthinking the need for accuracy in close combat. Reliability is paramount.

I meant accurancy for hunting. Getting fresh meat on the trek, to break up the diet of salted pork and salted beef.

 

[Janne]

British Army used the top breaking Webley between the 1880's and up to 1950's, without that problem.
I have experience from both the Webley and the Peacemaker, used to shoot them quite a bit in the okd days in Sweden.
I found personally that reloading a top breaker is by far the fastest revolver to reload.