Gone are the days of trust and good old common sense, if only we could turn back the pages and tell the PC brigade where to stick their ideas!!!
:twak: 
:twak: Scouts and knives
- Thread starter The Green Man
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woodwalker
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We have never had any problems using moras, just handing them out at when required in the session. After a couple of sessions instilling the basics of respecting the tools and their proper use, the Scouts are now fantastic and in fact the only people whoever seem to cut themselves on camps or sessions are the Leaders! 
its sad the state we are in Knife and axe training and use of them are a part of scouting and camping all we seem to have done is mystify and Taboo a tool
found this however
http://www.swiss-army-knife-wenger.co.uk/swiss_army_knives_scout.html
it is locking blade and must have been sanctioned by the scouts
found this however
http://www.swiss-army-knife-wenger.co.uk/swiss_army_knives_scout.html
it is locking blade and must have been sanctioned by the scouts
I organised a bulk purchase of clippers for our Explorers, sent home a letter for the parents to sign explaining why we thought they were good knives and said we wouldn't let them have them until they'd done some training. We also gave the parents the option of us giving the knife directly to them instead of the kids - a couple went for that, most of them let the Explorers take them.
This summer camp most of them bought their clippers along and had them on their belt for most of the time they were onsite - as did the leaders. In our opinion they have to learn how to use them properly and we only had one minor cut all week (oh, two if you include leaders - ) which I thought was pretty good.
The only time we had an issue was when I went up to instruct some Guides on the rifle range, I still had my knife on and one of the crew objected - wrongly saying that it was now 'Scout rules' that knives can only be worn on your own pitch - not around site.
I've since checked with the info center and they emailed me an apparently un-published fact sheet saying that they can be carried when there is cause to do so - camping being mentioned. When I specifically asked about carrying them around site they said that it would be acceptable when needed for a particular activity "if for instance a Scout or Explorer Scout was out in the forest and knew that they would need their knives then this would be appropriate for them to have the knives on them".
This summer camp most of them bought their clippers along and had them on their belt for most of the time they were onsite - as did the leaders. In our opinion they have to learn how to use them properly and we only had one minor cut all week (oh, two if you include leaders -
) which I thought was pretty good.The only time we had an issue was when I went up to instruct some Guides on the rifle range, I still had my knife on and one of the crew objected - wrongly saying that it was now 'Scout rules' that knives can only be worn on your own pitch - not around site.
I've since checked with the info center and they emailed me an apparently un-published fact sheet saying that they can be carried when there is cause to do so - camping being mentioned. When I specifically asked about carrying them around site they said that it would be acceptable when needed for a particular activity "if for instance a Scout or Explorer Scout was out in the forest and knew that they would need their knives then this would be appropriate for them to have the knives on them".
I watched Tribe, last night. There was an occasion when a group of people were using knives to peel the skins off some root plants, and there was a young kiddy, must have been well under the age of ten? and he was handling with confidence, a knife which had a rather large blade. These people taught the use of what in this country are now deemed dangerous weapons to their children. No doubt the children grew to respect the knife for what it is: an indispensable tool.
No doubt also some in the PC brigade, if they bothered watching the program, were tut-tutting at the irresponsibilty of the parents.
I am not involved in the scouts, but I admire the people who still try to inspire the kids despite all the obstacles this society now put in the way.
No doubt also some in the PC brigade, if they bothered watching the program, were tut-tutting at the irresponsibilty of the parents.
I am not involved in the scouts, but I admire the people who still try to inspire the kids despite all the obstacles this society now put in the way.
Probablt mans' oldest tool, other than a good hefty rock or stick, and the right to carry is taken away in the blink of an eye. It's not fun checking that the small knife I carry meets legislation because a few people have spoilt it for the rest of us.
I have bought Moras for our Troop and we have used them a few times without any cuts so far. I have Scouts from various Troops and even some Japanese scouts carving with them my ACC liked the idea as did my DC in the end.
It was scary teaching Japanese scouts who claimed not to understand English
how to carve but it went well and they seemed to enjoy it.
The first thing I say to my Scouts is if you misbehave when using a knife you waon't be allowed to use it and they know I meen it.
It was scary teaching Japanese scouts who claimed not to understand English
how to carve but it went well and they seemed to enjoy it.The first thing I say to my Scouts is if you misbehave when using a knife you waon't be allowed to use it and they know I meen it.
I did a day of firecraft demo (Bowdrill, charcloth and cramp ball) this year for the Beavers, Scouts and Explorers (200 in all) and had an array of knives about my person all of which I was using at some point during the demo. I explained the value of the knife as a tool and mixed a bit of knife safety in with the demo. The whole day was fantastic and it was a close run thing I reckon as to who enjoyed it more - the demonstrator or the audience
I have had requests for demo's for two other groups for later this year based on word of mouth from people that attended the day
I don't like to generalise but I find kids that take part in Beavers right through to Explorers a joy to be around as they all seem to still display the decent qualities our useless pc society is doing its utmost to destroy. My little lad went to camp last year for the first time and was quite nervous as he didn't really know what to expect. Within minutes of arriving, a group of lads of varying ages had taken him under their wing and that was the last I saw of him for the rest of the day
I have had requests for demo's for two other groups for later this year based on word of mouth from people that attended the day
I don't like to generalise but I find kids that take part in Beavers right through to Explorers a joy to be around as they all seem to still display the decent qualities our useless pc society is doing its utmost to destroy. My little lad went to camp last year for the first time and was quite nervous as he didn't really know what to expect. Within minutes of arriving, a group of lads of varying ages had taken him under their wing and that was the last I saw of him for the rest of the day
I wonder if anyone can help me; I was observed teaching a day in the wilderness here at my outdoor centre yesterday by three head teachers.
The day can take any form, but we follow a stream down to the sea where we make shelters and fires etc. I introduce my groups to the skill of using fire steels etc. the children are mostly Years 5 and 6, 10 - 11 year olds . Sometimes I make feather sticks and use the knife as an axe to split wood down .I always include a bit about how important it is to see the knife being used as a real tool and not a weapon as many young people view knives today. I don't always include a knife in the demo, but sometimes it just seems appropriate or I need to split big or wet wood to burn, instead of using paper wood i have bought with me!
I have only had positive feedback from visiting teachers who have seen the value a) in learning a new skill and b) the value of witnessing a knife being used for what it was intended.
Most have seen Ray Mears on telly and I have never had boys drool at the knife and want to hold, it's just a tool I use.
Having said all that, the Heads , thought the knife might just encourage the children to go home and get knives and use them as a weapon The knife is the Bearclaw DFK, so not big, i really disagreed with the heads. I said i had had no negative only very feedback and had run many bushcraft courses both for primary school children, secondary children and 'youth at risk'
I was by far the most experinced out of us as the others only had limited knowledge of knives and their uses in the field. One of them suggeted I use an axe instead!
So, I believe firmly in the positives of showing youth the proper way to view knives, and how useful a tool they can be.
I was wondering whether you might have any ideas as to whether there is any literature on this subject or whether there is any anecdotal evidence to suggest the positives or indeed the negatives of using knives in this way with young students.
I would really grateful if you could give me yours or any others views (or point me in the right direction) on this subject, as I feel strongly about the postives, and feel it would be a loss to the whole experience to shy away from this topic.
Hoping you can help
cheers
The day can take any form, but we follow a stream down to the sea where we make shelters and fires etc. I introduce my groups to the skill of using fire steels etc. the children are mostly Years 5 and 6, 10 - 11 year olds . Sometimes I make feather sticks and use the knife as an axe to split wood down .I always include a bit about how important it is to see the knife being used as a real tool and not a weapon as many young people view knives today. I don't always include a knife in the demo, but sometimes it just seems appropriate or I need to split big or wet wood to burn, instead of using paper wood i have bought with me!
I have only had positive feedback from visiting teachers who have seen the value a) in learning a new skill and b) the value of witnessing a knife being used for what it was intended.
Most have seen Ray Mears on telly and I have never had boys drool at the knife and want to hold, it's just a tool I use.
Having said all that, the Heads , thought the knife might just encourage the children to go home and get knives and use them as a weapon The knife is the Bearclaw DFK, so not big, i really disagreed with the heads. I said i had had no negative only very feedback and had run many bushcraft courses both for primary school children, secondary children and 'youth at risk'
I was by far the most experinced out of us as the others only had limited knowledge of knives and their uses in the field. One of them suggeted I use an axe instead!
So, I believe firmly in the positives of showing youth the proper way to view knives, and how useful a tool they can be.
I was wondering whether you might have any ideas as to whether there is any literature on this subject or whether there is any anecdotal evidence to suggest the positives or indeed the negatives of using knives in this way with young students.
I would really grateful if you could give me yours or any others views (or point me in the right direction) on this subject, as I feel strongly about the postives, and feel it would be a loss to the whole experience to shy away from this topic.
Hoping you can help
cheers
Nick
As long as you are teaching that a knife is tool what is the problem as you can see from this thread I have tought kids to use knives for carving wood and incidently soap.
Could you teach kids to cook without a knife?
kEEP IT UP YOU ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG
:You_Rock_
As long as you are teaching that a knife is tool what is the problem as you can see from this thread I have tought kids to use knives for carving wood and incidently soap.
Could you teach kids to cook without a knife?
kEEP IT UP YOU ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG
:You_Rock_
Grrrrrrrrr. Hi.
I just had to get that out of my system sry.
As you all know its not the knife or gun or pointy stick or whatever that does the harm, its the person using it.
It's easy to injure someone with your finger if you wanted to. Where will it all end. Will nobody be allowed out of their padded 'no knives allowed' houses soon?
I personally carry a leatherman with me all the time (except nights out on the town).
I can honestly say that I use it everyday whether it be the pliers or the blade.
When I camp out in the woods on a scout camp or otherwise or when I go scuba diving the most essential tool you could have (and indeed need for scuba diving) is a sharp bladed tool.
I always carry mine when doing the above activities.
Now if I was to walk around the town centre waving them about I would expect to be arrested and delt with accordingly.
I believe common sense should be allowed to prevail. Unfortunatley it's not.
Bodge
I just had to get that out of my system sry.
As you all know its not the knife or gun or pointy stick or whatever that does the harm, its the person using it.
It's easy to injure someone with your finger if you wanted to. Where will it all end. Will nobody be allowed out of their padded 'no knives allowed' houses soon?
I personally carry a leatherman with me all the time (except nights out on the town).
I can honestly say that I use it everyday whether it be the pliers or the blade.
When I camp out in the woods on a scout camp or otherwise or when I go scuba diving the most essential tool you could have (and indeed need for scuba diving) is a sharp bladed tool.
I always carry mine when doing the above activities.
Now if I was to walk around the town centre waving them about I would expect to be arrested and delt with accordingly.
I believe common sense should be allowed to prevail. Unfortunatley it's not.
Bodge
SimonM
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I went to my first District Leaders meeting last night and was pleasantly surprised that they are orgainising a "standardised" assessment for the Scouts to take.
This will be put in place after Leaders have had training to meet the standard themselves !... then 1 Leader will tour the District and Robert is your fathers brother...
All singing from the same songsheet there's a strange concept...
Simon
This will be put in place after Leaders have had training to meet the standard themselves !... then 1 Leader will tour the District and Robert is your fathers brother...
All singing from the same songsheet there's a strange concept...
Simon
SimonM, sounds like a good system. Bit of a resurrected thread but for what it's worth:
In our Troop, on each camp we run an axe, knife and saw session for all newbies. In the Scout's record books, Skip (Nigel) adds to the inside of the back cover a check sheet for Camp skills. As a Scout is trained up in each area the sheet is signed off by the Leader who ran the training. So far we have not had to put a sharps ban on a Scout, but that is the threat. Whilst none of the training is standardised, it does seem to be working. I have a few Frost Vikings and Nigel has a few Opinels for the use of Scouts, generally under supervision. The Scouts may bring their own knives to camp where they are stored by the Leaders and released when they are needed, although I suspect that not all knives are coming back when they're finished with (I was that age once and wouldn't have liked the current rules) It is my opinion that if they are off collecting wood then a saw is the most use to them, any axe and knife work should be done back at camp, so there is no reason for them to wander of into the woods with knives. I also have a nasty habit of 'appearing' in the woods, usually when someone is about to do something they shouldn't.
I think that demonstration, practice under supervision and experience gives a good fundamental education in the safe use of cutting tools. Whilst I have a resharpening marathon after every camp, the Scouts are going home in one piece. I hope to bring up the standard of care of the tools, but keeping the youngsters intact is the first priority.
I was taught mainly by pain and blood loss. Whilst effective I don't think that that is the best way but I really don't want to see a generation growing up with no idea how to handle traditional Scouting tools. I've dealt with a few cuts from sharps use on camp. At that age they heal quickly and bounce back fine. It is always a learning experience and the Parents all seem to be happy with their Sons and Daughters going out and doing.
All the best, lets keep fighting the boredom-mongers.
In our Troop, on each camp we run an axe, knife and saw session for all newbies. In the Scout's record books, Skip (Nigel) adds to the inside of the back cover a check sheet for Camp skills. As a Scout is trained up in each area the sheet is signed off by the Leader who ran the training. So far we have not had to put a sharps ban on a Scout, but that is the threat. Whilst none of the training is standardised, it does seem to be working. I have a few Frost Vikings and Nigel has a few Opinels for the use of Scouts, generally under supervision. The Scouts may bring their own knives to camp where they are stored by the Leaders and released when they are needed, although I suspect that not all knives are coming back when they're finished with (I was that age once and wouldn't have liked the current rules) It is my opinion that if they are off collecting wood then a saw is the most use to them, any axe and knife work should be done back at camp, so there is no reason for them to wander of into the woods with knives. I also have a nasty habit of 'appearing' in the woods, usually when someone is about to do something they shouldn't.
I think that demonstration, practice under supervision and experience gives a good fundamental education in the safe use of cutting tools. Whilst I have a resharpening marathon after every camp, the Scouts are going home in one piece. I hope to bring up the standard of care of the tools, but keeping the youngsters intact is the first priority.
I was taught mainly by pain and blood loss. Whilst effective I don't think that that is the best way but I really don't want to see a generation growing up with no idea how to handle traditional Scouting tools. I've dealt with a few cuts from sharps use on camp. At that age they heal quickly and bounce back fine. It is always a learning experience and the Parents all seem to be happy with their Sons and Daughters going out and doing.
All the best, lets keep fighting the boredom-mongers.
I am a boy scout in America and we dont really get all the knife rules, but before we are even aloud to carry a knife in scouts, we must pass a test and after (my scout master makes us) hours (usually 3) we get a little card that is called a "toten' chit" which allows us to carry a knife. Usually kids have either lock backs or slip joint saks. But we are aloud to carry fixed blades (just not rambo knives) wherever we want. I usually whe i leae the house take my 4 inch(10 cm) blade, just clipped to my inside pocket, I just would never take it to school (im not dumb)
SimonM
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I have now been back as a leader about 10 times and have introduced more practical skills into meetings. We have covered hatchet, bow saw and knife use so far.
Sadly it went a bit pear shaped this week when one of the Scouts cut his little finger - to the bone, severing a tendon.
I have been trying to re enact the accident - here are my thoughts....
All I can come up with is that he was holding the knife by the body and attempted to close the blade with his hand in the way - ouch! (Before you all ask, he was shown the correct way - infact this was the second week of this project, with a safety talk and demo both weeks from me.)
Anyway - after the 1st Aid bit Mum & Dad arrived to take him to hospital,and announced that they had meant to tell us for a few weeks but little "Billy" had been diagnosed with dyspraxia just before Christmas! Now this would not have stopped him joining in, but it sure as hell would have changed how we supervised him (and he would not have had MY knife either!)
The really scary thing is though he was using an axe 3 weeks ago!
Is it just me or do some parents really not help .....
Simon
Sadly it went a bit pear shaped this week when one of the Scouts cut his little finger - to the bone, severing a tendon.
I have been trying to re enact the accident - here are my thoughts....
- Cut is on right hand, little finger, outside face just between nail and knuckle joint.
- Child is RIGHT handed.
- All cutting done kneeling, knife towards ground and away from body.
- Type of knife - SAK (mine!)
- Age of Scout involved -11 years.
All I can come up with is that he was holding the knife by the body and attempted to close the blade with his hand in the way - ouch!
(Before you all ask, he was shown the correct way - infact this was the second week of this project, with a safety talk and demo both weeks from me.)Anyway - after the 1st Aid bit Mum & Dad arrived to take him to hospital,and announced that they had meant to tell us for a few weeks but little "Billy" had been diagnosed with dyspraxia just before Christmas! Now this would not have stopped him joining in, but it sure as hell would have changed how we supervised him (and he would not have had MY knife either!)
The really scary thing is though he was using an axe 3 weeks ago!
Is it just me or do some parents really not help .....
Simon
I find that a bit of a confusing one to diagnose the 'cause' behind that cut Simon. What was he carving?
I would really love to get my Scouts doing things like this but with 22 of them, it's very hard doing many 'normal' activities.
I need to separate them off and only work with a patrol or less at a time and having something for the rest to do at the same time is a bit tricky in my Troop.
I would really love to get my Scouts doing things like this but with 22 of them, it's very hard doing many 'normal' activities.
I need to separate them off and only work with a patrol or less at a time and having something for the rest to do at the same time is a bit tricky in my Troop.
SimonM
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Hi Stew,
They were all carving notches at the time, stage one of making a tent peg!
The Troop only has 7 members, a result of several factors, but mainly a lack of leaders (3 leaders run ALL sections and are struggling to make the program interesting). Hopefully his wil be redressed when my CRB comes thro and I take over the Scout section!
22 Scouts - imagine the possibilties....
The idea of 22 is great but the practicality of it is somewhat limited at the moment. I've been with this troop for about a year now and it's my first proper leadership role.
To my mind, there is a lack of core Scout skills within the group. I would expect the patrol leaders to be able to take on a minor leadership role when doing things like knotting but when they don't know the skills themselves, how can they pass them on? This means that the 4 leaders are teaching everything but then there's a similar problem there with 2 of them not knowing a great deal either.
To my mind, there is a lack of core Scout skills within the group. I would expect the patrol leaders to be able to take on a minor leadership role when doing things like knotting but when they don't know the skills themselves, how can they pass them on? This means that the 4 leaders are teaching everything but then there's a similar problem there with 2 of them not knowing a great deal either.
Simon
Some parents do not help at all in opinion I know our Cub Leader has a problem with parents who will not accept thier child has special needs (the leader in question is expeeirenced in such matters). Remeber you can only act on what you know about a child.
Alf
With 22 you will need to split the evening or camp into sessions
I have worked with a dozen at once (out of 40 Japaneses Scouts who could not speak english
) with knives it all about teaching in a safe way so they do not injure each other or themselves. I sat one lot in circle on chairs over a metre apart all facing me. showed them to keep thier work and knife in front of thier knees (sat leaning forward) to remove the risk of stabbing themselves in the leg. I bought fixed blade knives to reduce the risk of injuries like simons scout but then you need to teach them how to remove the knife from the sheath and put it back. another way I positioned them was on the end of a bench facing away from each other.
You can start by getting them to sit a table with a folder and carving soap as well.
Alf
