Rustlers Burgers

[abominable_scouse_monster]

BR & Toddy,

I come from a background of teachers (mum and two aunts) and my dad is a engineer in the nuclear sector and they both have fond memory's of school, but speaking as some one who has been through the modern school system a fair number of today's children won't cope with that system. Simply because they have disinterested parents who couldn't care less how the child get's on in school as it's not there problem that's why my mum had the misfortune of dealing with 17/18 year old's who attended Collage just for the EMA who could't spell there own name (not joking) and others who where just so I'll behaved they where impossible to teach.
I saw some of this when I was in school, for example we had mixed ability home group so we had say Set 1 students mixed in with set 5 students, and the attitude was markedly different, say we had 10 minutes free at the lesson we would be allowed to use it as free time mostly to do homework (start it or finish it etc) You would see the set 1's get out the books and make a head start, set 3's just chat and the 5's put feet up on the desk and start shouting out obsenatys.

What's needed is a cultural shift towards valuing education in this country among a large tract of society, some familys praise education and the willingness to learn then we have others who downright ridicule others for wanting to learn. I have seen kid's ask parents for books in the shop and the mum or dad say "nha you can't learn anything from a book" not meaning that particular book but books in general.

 

[santaman2000]

Red, I'm sure it's far more restricted now here as well. It never was a course leading to certification unless it was either a Vo-Tech or had advanced standing with the more technical universities. Embry-Riddle Aeronautical university here in Florida offers advanced credit toward their degrees for participents in the local high schools (although now that I mention that, it's university credit rather than certification) Just basic understanding and introduction. As you said regarding the cooking; enough to inspire further study if the interest and aptitude was there. Even at that, it was an elective course. Albeit a popular one.

 

[stuart f]

That's why comprehensive education was considered to be the best option though; folks like you got didn't get the education you were obviously capable of. The problem was/is that now no one's getting the best education they might.....and I agree, your daughters are a credit to you and your wife, and themselves

cheers,
M

Thanks Mary, i suppose in a ways i would like to meet that careers chap now,and say there you go, i bucked the trend, mind you though i don't think the mohican and doc martins were showing me at my best then :yelrotflm .

Cheers Stuart.

 

[Andy BB]

I'm not saying that academic education is a waste of time - for those with an academic inclination. What I am saying is trying to force everyone down that route is folly and that those who are not academically inclined would benefit from more practical alternatives.

One size does not fit all.

Please don't put words like edjumactation in my mouth - my daughter with her Cambridge law degree doing her masters at Oxford or phd lecturer father will find longer ones. But academic study is not the be all and end all - practical disciplines matter as well!

If its good enough for Homer Simpson, its good enough for me - you need to watch more TV (although my favourite was saxomophone..)

I'm not disputing that practical skills are important, but that is surely where parents come in for basic skills like cooking, rather than putting all the onus on the teachers. Responsibility cannot be abrogated for that - well, not in my book anyway!

As far as deciding who is smart enough for the larning, and who is too "intellectually challenged" to be anything other than a blue-collar worker, I remember the days of the old Secondary Modern schools, which did just that. However, not politically correct for modern times, methinks!

 

[santaman2000]

....I'm not disputing that practical skills are important, but that is surely where parents come in for basic skills like cooking, rather than putting all the onus on the teachers. Responsibility cannot be abrogated for that - well, not in my book anyway!...

Trouble is with that however is that it pe-supposes that the parents know how to cook. Adding cooking (or any other basic skills course) to the curriculum doesn't "put the onus on the teachers." It adds another paid teaching position (and thus another employment opportunity) that didn't exist when it wasn't on the curriculim. Granted that adds to the taxpayers' burden but with the end benefit might be a reduction to the taxpayers' burden for healthcare.

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Trouble is with that however is that it pe-supposes that the parents know how to cook. Adding cooking (or any other basic skills course) to the curriculum doesn't "put the onus on the teachers." It adds another paid teaching position (and thus another employment opportunity) that didn't exist when it wasn't on the curriculim. Granted that adds to the taxpayers' burden but with the end benefit might be a reduction to the taxpayers' burden for healthcare.

I think with that you are correct, there is a whole generation of parents out there who think cooking starts and ends at pierce film lid and microwave for 5 minutes at 750 Watt and the worst sin of all "Mum's shop at ice land" philosopy of cooking which is just right from the pack no need for a plate.

 

[British Red]

If its good enough for Homer Simpson, its good enough for me - you need to watch more TV (although my favourite was saxomophone..)

I'm not disputing that practical skills are important, but that is surely where parents come in for basic skills like cooking, rather than putting all the onus on the teachers. Responsibility cannot be abrogated for that - well, not in my book anyway!

As far as deciding who is smart enough for the larning, and who is too "intellectually challenged" to be anything other than a blue-collar worker, I remember the days of the old Secondary Modern schools, which did just that. However, not politically correct for modern times, methinks!

Why should parents abrogate responsibility for literacy or numeracy either? My point is that these skills have equal value.

There are and always have been lazy, indolent or incompetent parents.

One wouldn't comendemn a child whose parents were illiterate to the same fate. Why should we expect a child who has never had a proper meal cooked from scratch to educate themselves on the benefits and techniques of nutrition? It is an absolute fact that rates of diet based disease are far higher in the less academically qualified and poorer families.

Of course all children need an education in literacy and numeracy. But I venture to suggest, given the rising levels of diet based disease, that they would also benefit from education in diet that moves beyond silly preachy stuff in biology. "Eat healthily" is chuff all use if no-one has taught you to prepare healthy meals that are appetising and affordable.

We can disagree - but I think the attitude that people who choose "blue collar" work must be "too intellectually challenged" to have an option is a sad indictment of society that needs those skills - and intellectual snobbery to boot. A talented carpenter is far more use to society than a number of the phDs that have worked for me!

 

[Samon]

makes me want to home school mine when the time comes..

my neighbours send their 5 year old boy to a steiner school, apparently they teach (at a premium price I might add) the children in a way that they learn as and to be individuals. And focus less on the academic side and more on life skills and stuff.

The boys mother said she was educated at a steiner school until she was 16 I think and couldn't read until she was 8, but at 10 was reading things like the hobbit. I asked what sort of stuff the boy gets taught and she said things like cooking, planting plants and leanring to express himself.. admittedly I'm sceptical, mainly because the boy (at 5) didn't know why my rabbits ate grass or why my dog ate sausages.

I have faith in my wife and myself to educate our offspring in these finer details and make them enthusiastic to learn and try new things, and not end up a clueless plonker like alot of people seem to.

 

[Andy BB]

Why should parents abrogate responsibility for literacy or numeracy either? My point is that these skills have equal value.

There are and always have been lazy, indolent or incompetent parents.

One wouldn't comendemn a child whose parents were illiterate to the same fate. Why should we expect a child who has never had a proper meal cooked from scratch to educate themselves on the benefits and techniques of nutrition? It is an absolute fact that rates of diet based disease are far higher in the less academically qualified and poorer families.

Of course all children need an education in literacy and numeracy. But I venture to suggest, given the rising levels of diet based disease, that they would also benefit from education in diet that moves beyond silly preachy stuff in biology. "Eat healthily" is chuff all use if no-one has taught you to prepare healthy meals that are appetising and affordable.

We can disagree - but I think the attitude that people who choose "blue collar" work must be "too intellectually challenged" to have an option is a sad indictment of society that needs those skills - and intellectual snobbery to boot. A talented carpenter is far more use to society than a number of the phDs that have worked for me!

I was referring to the philosophy of the Secondary Modern system, hence the use of " " !

A talented carpenter more use to society than a bunch of PHDs? Possibly if their PHD is in media studies! Aand also possibly to those who can afford him nowadays.. Personally, I think a spinal surgeon was more use to my daughter than a perfectly-crafted set of dovetail joints, or the hip surgeon who did such a fine job on me, but I accept I may be biased in that opinion...............

 

[santaman2000]

I was referring to the philosophy of the Secondary Modern system, hence the use of " " !

A talented carpenter more use to society than a bunch of PHDs? Possibly if their PHD is in media studies! Aand also possibly to those who can afford him nowadays.. Personally, I think a spinal surgeon was more use to my daughter than a perfectly-crafted set of dovetail joints, or the hip surgeon who did such a fine job on me, but I accept I may be biased in that opinion...............

But neither of those surgeons could have been of any use without the eletrician that kept the operating theater lit. Or the craftsman that built the operating table. Or the one who made the prosthetic hip. Or the plumber who kept the water running so the surgeons could scrub in. The list gets long indeed.

Shortly after the Cold War ended the British government released a previously classified document listing the official priority to be given to various survivors of a nuclear holacost (it was read on BBC before I left the country) It's interesting to note that while mechanics, craftsmen, nurse and paramedics were high on that list, surgeons weren't there at all.

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

I think we all just need to wake up to the fact that a skill any skill be it highly accredited like a Doctor or a PHD to a Plumber or a Carpenter who can learn on the job are equally valuable in a society.

 

[santaman2000]

True enough ASM.

 

[British Red]

...both of the last two posts sum up my opinion concisely. A society is a complex organism that needs many different skills - and requires an education system that fosters all of those skills - rather than indulge in "oneupmanship" that, again, decries the "dovetail joint". As said before, those surgeons are no use without a manufacturing base for their tools, a tradesman base to equip and maintain those hospitals and on and on.

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Oddly this just cropped up on the BBC.

And BR, I agree all skill's support other skill's. And we need a wide verity of skill's just to make the world function on a basic level and when we get to something as complex as Western Society I doubt all talents and skill's are recognised as much as they should be but they are still a important part of us all even if we do not possess that skill directly.

 

[Toddy]

Schools teach more than simply the curriculum though; they are both the best and worst examples of how to get along with other people, or at least learn to tolerate, endure, survive them

Steiner school has some very funny quirks Samon, fine if you're happy with them, but I know a lot of supposedly 'properly educated' children who are total flakes and misfits from that system. Going to get jumped on now, aren't i ? doesn't make it false though.

Education Otherwise is one of the home schooling associations.....it really depends strongly on how you get along with other folks in any group that you choose to be part of, but the kids still won't get into University if they don't get the grades, nor will they be accepted into what apprenticeships there are if they don't show grades or vocation. It's not a simple a+b+c, there's always the human/society factor too.

Anyway, enough from me, I'm off to bed. Play nicely


M

 

[Andy BB]

...both of the last two posts sum up my opinion concisely. A society is a complex organism that needs many different skills - and requires an education system that fosters all of those skills - rather than indulge in "oneupmanship" that, again, decries the "dovetail joint". As said before, those surgeons are no use without a manufacturing base for their tools, a tradesman base to equip and maintain those hospitals and on and on.

Who's decrying the dovetail joint?! Merely pointing out that the skills of a surgeon require high intelligence and a decade of post-graduate study. And the foundation for all of that is a decent education, which includes all those things like geometry and algebra. And I'd rather he/she spends their time learning that than how to boil an egg, or where mutton comes from. THe latter two skills are the responsibility of the parents in my book.

The reverse one-upmanship you argue has been tried on a grand scale before. All the highly trained academics, scientists, doctors, teachers, engineers etc were "re-educated" in Mao's Cultural Revolution to do "proper" jobs like digging and farming. And put China back 20 years as a result, even ignoring the huge amount of suffering that resulted. Do not decry those who want to study, in the same way that I'm not decrying those who prefer to work with their hands. Its not either/or.

 

[British Red]

But education is, and thats my point. Either academic Or no education. Thats the problem. At no point have I said there should not be an academic education. It is you that is saying there shouldn't be practical education. That's where the problem lies.

 

[Earthgirl]

At the end of the day it depends on the parent... and the environment that the child was brought up in...

My sister in law works in a school kitchen that caters for infants and juniors and today she was telling me about a child that when she saw that today there was going to be sausages in rolls for lunch she assumed they would be the tinned hot dog variety and when she found out they were actual proper sausages she refused to eat them...

Make your own conclusions... (sigh... )

 

[Samon]

At the end of the day it depends on the parent... and the environment that the child was brought up in...

My sister in law works in a school kitchen that caters for infants and juniors and today she was telling me about a child that when she saw that today there was going to be sausages in rolls for lunch she assumed they would be the tinned hot dog variety and when she found out they were actual proper sausages she refused to eat them...

Make your own conclusions... (sigh... )

No offence to the child but I'd be gutted if this was the attitude any of my family members, particularly my children!

I wodner if showing that little girl the truth behind tinned hotdogs would change her mind or not? It certainly changed my mind! haha, I thought they were pork!

 

[santaman2000]

I'd be gutted if any of my kids thought proper hot dogs came from a can.