Ray Mears Hits Back at Anti 4x4 Lobby

[Rebel]

The 4x4 is a thorny issue with very strong opinions on both side of the fence.

I have to admit that where I live they are extremely popular and none of them ever drive off road. When you've spent all that money on a Range Rover or Porsche Cayenne for the school run the last thing you want to do is drive it through a muddy field. Many of these vehicles have painted the walls of their tyres to make them look nicer, you don't want mud on that.

I guess it annoys people that so many of these vehicles that they perceive to be not only an inappropriate vehicle for urban use is also, in the opinion of those who oppose them, a gas-guzzling polluting monster that is more dangerous to pedestrians and other road users than a conventional vehicle is so prevalent on our roads.

Because the 4x4 has become a luxury status symbol and there are so many of them driving around busy towns and outside schools they are an easy target for our disdain.

If they were only driven by people who actually needed them because of the work they do or for their outdoor pursuits then I reckon there wouldn't be much of an issue. I don't think most people are targeting the traditional "Landie" but the luxury 4x4s. I even heard from a Police Officer that the police Range Rover 4x4 he drives on the highways will never be driven off-road because it's too expensive.

There's also a problem of how do you really define what a 4x4 is. If the government and whoever want to target certain vehicles as being bad for the environment surely they should also target other luxury cars that have huge engines like Bentleys, Jaguars, etc.

 

[JonnyP]

This subject annoys me, why cant people live and let live....If a woman wants to drive her kids to school in a 4x4, good luck to her....I remember watching a top gear prog, with that woman fron big brother, the host (as she was, maybe still is..???) cant remember her name....She said she drives her kids about in a big 4x4, she looked hard into what car to drive, but at the end of the day she chose a big 4x4 because she felt her kids would be safer in that than any other car....There are so many deaths on the road, who can blame a mother from trying to protect her kids....I certainly dont...If folk want to drive 4x4's, then leave em be, they do have to pay for the privilege in extra tax, higher insurance, possibly more fuel and higher running costs....

 

[baggins]

Following on from Saffy's post,
last year, i found a flyer plastered on to my windscreen of my battered old landy 110. I'd parked in town to go to the bank, the truck was covered in mud and there was all my chainsaw gear piled in the back. The flyer told me i was evil and i eas destroying the earth etc etc. The flyer had the green peace logo all over it, so i emailed greenpeace directly (having been a suporter for many years), i was outraged and told them so. I recieved a very quick and polite response, informing me that, while greenpeace were, indeed, against 4x4s; it was only the chelsea tractor brigade they were aiming at and my car was not what they were campaigning against.
Now my argument is that, fine, tax the pants of those flashy gits who have as much need of a 4x4 as i have as using masculine moisturiser. BUT, after my landy went to heaven, i couldn't afford to buy, let alone run, a new truck. The tax and fuel etc is now just too inhibitive for me to run one now. the only people who can afford to run them now, are those who don't need them.
Surely, the big manufacturers can build a decent, rugged, off road truck, that doesn't need a friendly arab to help run it. As it is, i think i'm going back to the origional off road wagon, the horse (more comfy than the landy actually).
Baggins

 

[JonnyP]

.
the only people who can afford to run them now, are those who don't need them.

Baggins

Sorry Baggins, but I need one to pull my large tipping trailer for work...My old landy is still hanging in there and does a wonderful job of getting me and my tools and supplys to work....

 

[Risclean]

Most 4x4 owners I've come across wouldn't be able to drive offroad without getting stuck even if they actually go off the road.
One thing that really annoys me is when I meet a 4x4 on a single track road. I drive a Vectra which one of the 8 previous owners fitted sports suspension to. This gives good handling but less clearance than most couches. Of course the 4x4 driver won't go on to the verge so I've usually had to go further off road than them
No more though, the next time I meet one I'm not moving to they get out of my way:AR15firin

They there's those great big Nissans with the clip on roll bars.

Seriously though, I don't know you could tax the Chelsea tractors withoug hitting the people who have a geniune need for 4x4s.

 

[RobertRogers]

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Unless something changes it won't be many generations before the earth will no longer be able to sustain our growing population. Hope I am not around when the big crash happens.

 

[Tengu]

No, Mikey P, Im going to paint it blue

and it will have furry dice...

...and a number on the door.

and it will be capable of doing the East African Safari race which is the worlds toughest.

 

[saffy]

I think I still live in a country where I can drive what the hell I like. My other half uses our Defender as a daily drive to work, whereas I use a Series1. Series 1 is from 1953 - how many modern euro bubbles could still be usable after 50+ years? At the weekends they often look like this...

 

[Jackdaw]

I read recently that a single petrol lawnmower used for an hour produces the same amount of CO2 that 40 "average" cars produce if run for an hour.

Admittedly I am not sure what they meant by an average car, but it's pretty compelling. If you take into consideration other luxury goods that some households have it gets pretty damning for some!

 

[BOD]

Can some one privide the link to the Green peace statement?

 

[Tadpole]

I read recently that a single petrol lawnmower used for an hour produces the same amount of CO2 that 40 "average" cars produce if run for an hour.

Admittedly I am not sure what they meant by an average car, but it's pretty compelling. If you take into consideration other luxury goods that some households have it gets pretty damning for some!

it's an oft misquoted study, the real facts are that the study was funded by the Swedish E.P.A. and it found that found that using a four-horsepower lawnmower for an hour causes the same amount of pollution as driving a car 150 kilometers. a petrol lawnmower releases more than 1,000g of CO2, per hour, a family holiday for four to Florida, uses 2,415kg of CO2. Use a diswasher once a day, and you produce the same CO2 as a Range Rover Turbo Diesel driven normally for three kilometers.

 

[Steve R]

Of course the 4x4 driver won't go on to the verge so I've usually had to go further off road than them

That happens to me a lot round here, I live in a very rural area with lots of narrow raods, I drive a 1.5 Proton.

 

[nickg]

But isnt there a bigger question of freedom of choice here.
Could you say the same about any high performance sport car - who actually NEEDS a Ferrari or a McLaren F1 when you cant go faster that 70 anywhere on a road in UK. There should be no need to JUSTIFY your choice of car to anyone but yourself. No vehicle should be taxed on its IMAGE but on its impact to the environment (that would make skip lorries and busses the most expensive vehicles you could drive IMHO).
Besides this the other point that the govt is convieniently forgetting is that the tax is a ROAD FUND License - introduced to fund the building, upkeep and repair of the ROADS and as such should be based on the usage levels and wear imposed on the roads by the vehicle (I return to my previous comment on buses and skip lorries), not by any perceived eliteism of the owners - and are jags rollers merc volvos bentleys limos etc to also recieve higher taxation - surely the Govt is just as envious of those wealthy owners - ooops silly me - thats them isnt it!!

rant over

Nick

 

[Emma]

Seriously though, I don't know you could tax the Chelsea tractors without hitting the people who have a geniune need for 4x4s.

This is a thought I just had. I haven't thought it through properly. Just wondered if discussing it might help...
Raise tax on petrol (I mean fuel when I say petrol, wouldn't want to discriminate against diesel and LPG fuelled vehicles...) bought in cities?

Problems I've thought of so far:
- defining the city area for increased taxation
- increased congestion exiting city and in surrounding areas to reach cheaper petrol
- less urban area petrol stations increasing prices to be in line with city centre prices, beating object of increased tax
- irritating city centre dwellers who are a large number of voters will deter this happening anyway

 

[saffy]

This is a thought I just had. I haven't thought it through properly. Just wondered if discussing it might help...
Raise tax on petrol (I mean fuel when I say petrol, wouldn't want to discriminate against diesel and LPG fuelled vehicles...) bought in cities?

Problems I've thought of so far:
- defining the city area for increased taxation
- increased congestion exiting city and in surrounding areas to reach cheaper petrol
- less urban area petrol stations increasing prices to be in line with city centre prices, beating object of increased tax
- irritating city centre dwellers who are a large number of voters will deter this happening anyway

erm, Red Ken is waaaaaay ahead of you....

bewarned this is crazy stuff
http://www.lro.com/news.php?sid=66&page=1

That article is pretty bad and the facts confusing, but the £100.00 per day charge does refer to landrover which have van panel rear end opposed to windows and seats.

 

[nickg]

If you read the TFL website it applies to ANY Lorry Bus or Van thats desil engined and ove 1ton unladen registered before 2001 and that hasnt been modified with anti pollution filters, excluding motor mowers cranes and building site vehicles. Skip lorries may find thier way into that last category. £100 per day fine or £2000+ for the modifications or £10000 for a new bus so guess what the result will be - yep - loads of dosh for red ken and the fares will go up to compensate for the extra running costs. Oh yes and the congestion charge will go up to compensate ken for the increased subsidies to the bus companies for the new buses (that they will get one day) - That bloke is nothing short of genius - evil - but genius.

Cheers
Nick

 

[EdS]

when I've got the canoe on the roof my 10 year old Discovery (300 TDi) does more mpg than the 6 year old Astra estate (1.7 TD). And is shorter but wit hmore usable space.

 

[saffy]

when I've got the canoe on the roof my 10 year old Discovery (300 TDi) does more mpg than the 6 year old Astra estate (1.7 TD). And is shorter but wit hmore usable space.

Are you saying the roof canoe is a factor in it doing more mpg than the Astra? Because I might be able to sell that idea to the misses for grounds of getting myself a canoe too :You_Rock_

 

[Rebel]

If you read the TFL website it applies to ANY Lorry Bus or Van thats desil engined and ove 1ton unladen registered before 2001 and that hasnt been modified with anti pollution filters, excluding motor mowers cranes and building site vehicles. Skip lorries may find thier way into that last category. £100 per day fine or £2000+ for the modifications or £10000 for a new bus so guess what the result will be - yep - loads of dosh for red ken and the fares will go up to compensate for the extra running costs. Oh yes and the congestion charge will go up to compensate ken for the increased subsidies to the bus companies for the new buses (that they will get one day) - That bloke is nothing short of genius - evil - but genius.

Cheers
Nick

Yep, he's a scary guy. He's got me worried. I'd leave the country but they've got all my money already. To quote an old song "St Peter don't you call me 'cos I can't go, I owe my soul to the company store." (Sixteen Tons)

 

[ricksurfgod]

I find all this sort of debate interesting as for the most part those against 4x4's in the UK are not in charge of any real facts and quote wildly innacurate "pop science" quotes. I drive myself a Mitsubishi Delica. It looks huge (infact I refer to it as the monster truck) but takes up less space than my mothers astra estate, its also inportant to note that a large number of 4x4's like mine are actually in 2wd whilst on tarmac so where does the argument lie for that one? I like a large numebr of people spend most of my time sat in traffic everyday, and use a large amount of fuel going absolutely nowhere. Now over the years I have owned all sorts of vehicles from large to small and in comparison the monster truck on average only gets 2mpg less than a 1300 petrol astra in town and if driven gently almost matches it on a run into the moors (1mpg less on my own experience) .so how am I any more responsible for this so called global warming than my counterparts in smaller euroboxes? It is important also to note my vehicle when available is filled with bio diesel come from watse veg oil and should I feel the need it can run on straight veg oil. I think it is dangereous to get dragged into the new religion of global warming beleiving items quoted as fact when a lot of the stat in volved are rounded and skewed to match a theory. I beleive the climate is changing and we are effecting it but not as alarmingly as quoted by some of the more extreme elements touting the word (you know the ones who accuse people of being stupid or a heretic for not beleiving the holy word of Gore!). I do believe using less is better and we should be concerned about our effects on nature but from more of a practical point of view. i.e. all the horrible sh!t produced from manufacturing batteries for the con that is Prius. and that is where our focus should be, along with re-planting forests and woodland.