He He... I thought this thread would polarise opinions and I also knew the usual have a pop brigade would use it as a chance to make it personal.
could get kilted up and storm the place for you Wayland, but I demand some camping rights in return
Not mine to offer mate, although we were offered that right, we voted against it as the site faces too many challenges and having some people allowed to camp and others not, would have made it far too confusing not to say unfair.
If you had to inform them " they cannot camp without permission and the council doesn't give permission to camp here, etc. etc. " surely you had done enough to educate them. Should they then subsequently decide to ignore you then that is their conscious decision to do so. Also as far as I'm aware should the police be called they themselves can do nothing with respect to trespass as it is a civil not criminal offence other than ask them to move on etc.
I am all for responsible camping and advocating safe camp craft but to be frank if somebody such as yourself had been that forward to me whilst I was out and about I sure would have questioned your own specific responsibility or duty towards being so frank and forward.
My 2 pence
real shame when a nice bit of land gets destroyed by people like that, even worse when it is an important habitat and the council have no intention of sorting it out. what can you really do
It is not that the council does not want to sort it out, it simply does not have the manpower to do so which is why it has to rely on voluntary groups like ours.
I confess don’t know all the legal ins and outs but the current situation is that warning notices are clearly visible around the site. The established procedure is that campers are first asked to leave, if they refuse to leave then the police are be brought in to assist.
The way the police operate when called is that they will serve fixed penalties for any litter or criminal damage such as the cutting of trees or lighting of fires.
I’ve seen them do this on at least one occasion which made it a very expensive nights camping for that particular group.
Due to the above mentioned shortage of manpower the council has asked us where possible to start the ball rolling with the first part of that procedure by phoning them where upon they register us as working volunteers and then asking the campers to leave as due representatives of the council.
It’s not a perfect system but it works reasonably well.
Gosh what a sense of power, to do what you had no right to do, wish I was that macho. You don't tackle the "Neds" then?
Actually I do deal with the Neds as well. It’s not pleasant, it usually involves verbal abuse, sometimes threats I’ve even been spat at on occasions but if they are not asked to leave by someone then the next part of the procedure cannot begin.
If it is a particularly large or rowdy group we have a phone tree system that means we can put more people on the ground for safety, but more often than not we just politely ask them to move on, tell them what happens if they don’t and see what happens.
I think most campy/backpacker types have all they need in terms of fuel and stoves, and probably wouldn't dream of chopping wood or building a fire. It'd be out with the gas stove, up tents, and so on for most folk...
the vast majority of backpackers go along with the 'leave no trace' philosophy.
I’m afraid my confidence in that assumption was dented somewhat on this occasion by the saw handle that was sticking out of one of the rucksacks.
As a landowner, you see a fire on your land, even a wee one, alarm bells ring. Look at the blog posts here, lots have a fire. A recent site I was had a rule of only BBQs off the ground eg no disposable ones on grass, and light on the beach near the high tide line.
The usual place that fires get lit here is directly on the pine debris in the woods and the fire often spreads under the surface.
It’s taken us days to extinguish some of them and we’ve had to call in the Fire Brigade on multiple occasions.
Personally I would've let them on their way, probably even showed them the best spot and given them a few pointers if they seemed decent enough. I've seen the same thing on the fishing scene. The worst case being some local elitists ousting a father and his two young sons from a prime spot because they didn't have the 'right' gear, were casting over their lines and generally didn't know what they were doing. I let them have my spot, use my gear, showed them how to cast and got them some lovely flatfish, then gave the other locals a mouthful once they'd left. Show them the way, don't show them the door.
Edit: I actually feel sick now. I've used up my self-righteous quota for the next two years!
I’ve tried that in the past I’m afraid. Of the six occasions that I’ve chatted with people about the problems, believed their promises or stated good intentions and then decided to turn a blind eye, twice I was proved right and four times sadly disappointed.
it is sad to think that a couple who wanted to go camping, could be turned away by an individual.
I agree with you, unfortunately we have a Grade A. Site of Biological Interest (SBI) sitting on the edge of a major conurbation and it’s difficult to make exceptions without sending out the wrong messages.
Wouldn't the Scots laws just mean that the local "Neds" had a legal right to camp there? As would the couple you turned away?
I'm probably obtuse, but I'm not sure how that would help the damage?
Anyone could camp there with 'responsible access' eg leave no rubbish, if you have to have a fire, very small, no scars and only driftwood, no impact on the flora and fauna. So their type of [FONT=&]camping[/FONT] would not be allowed.
There is no Legal right to camp anywhere here, in Scotland, just [FONT=&]responsible access[/FONT]. For example you are supposed to move away after 48hrs and not have group camping, also light a fire if you need to (how often do we light fire when we could use a stove ?)
I light a fire in a BBQ bucket etc if not on a beach, beaches are easier as you can light it below the high tide line etc.
Scots invading perhaps not, the English law catching up with Scotland and other Scandinavian Countries, all for it, BUT, it requires education, not only in the family home but at school, and I'm definitely talking about Scotland as well here, any one who camps/canoes on Loch Lomond and other Lochs knows the absolute devastation a "nice" weekend can wrought on the local countryside, with anything from live trees chopped at for fire wood, the horrible disposable barbecue, to a (and I've come across this more than once) whole camping rig, tent, sleeping bags, air beds, chairs, etc, just either left or chucked in the fire, because people couldn't be bothered packing it up, why should they, Supermarkets supply the whole kit for next to nothing, in their eyes at least it seems.
Snip> Show them the way, don't show them the door.<Snip
I agree with this sentiment, but I've also been on the other side, where trying to give help and advice has resulted in verbal and attempted physical assault. Nothing about this has an easy answer, it never has and never will until we approach the countryside like the Scandinavians. They talk about "The Nature", they reverie and respect what they have, we should too.
Eloquently answered by the guys who live there and see it in action. Yes, it would require education and a change of attitudes and deep down I’m not sure we’re ready for it here, but it does sadden me that we do not have a workable, responsible access policy in this country.
I love wild camping but I travel to Scotland or Scandinavia to do it. In the past I have used the vague permitted camping in remote parts of Dartmoor and above the highest enclosures of Cumbria but these days I’m even loath to do that as it sends the wrong kind of message out to people that will not bother to find out what is or isn’t allowed.
I understand that SCR - but presumably a "friends" group couldn't just turn a couple away?
Yes, unless the Local Council had byelaws, a Friends group could not turn away Responsible Access seekers.
In the end it all comes down to rights and responsibilities. Some people are very quick to bleat on about their rights but usually neglect the responsibilities that go with those rights.
At the moment we have a punitive system, “Don’t do that because we will beat you with a stick if you do.”
Personally I’ve always preferred the carrot approach, “If you want to camp here, you need to be responsible about it.”
In reality we usually need the carrot and the stick but that is just human nature I guess.
We don't all need a shovel either God man I am going lightweight
Try less fibre
I find a scrape and a burn do the trick
The question was purely a method of illustrating the wider problems that are usually not considered.
It’s bad enough having to clean up litter and fire scars but dealing with human faeces and dirty toilet paper really is unpleasant. Believe me, it’s a regular problem.
As a dog walker on site I have the responsibility to deal with similar issues of course but many campers take no such responsibility and show no signs of understanding how to deal properly with it either.
If their response had indicated that they knew what they were about I might have felt differently but it was clear from their reaction that they had not thought about it at all, with the additional factor of the saw in the backpack I didn’t feel inclined towards a seventh experiment I’m afraid.
I expect Wayland would if they were dressed as Vikings
They could have been dressed like the Queen of Sheba for all the difference it would make. What on Earth has that got to do with this matter.
Doesn't dressing as Odin pretty much require turning a blind eye?
Well done, nice to see someone is paying attention.
In this instance, I think your a cockeral. You called their bluff on the shovel, but at the same time being rude. Just because you are a 'character' ? Who has an enviable profession and folk can't seem to get enough of your role plays. What gives you the right to be so rude to a courting couple who like to camp, even if it means climbing a fence ? You sheriff of sherwood all of a sudden as opposed to...."im a Viking"
Bang aht of order......unless, you can on Odins eye say you've never trespasses, illegally camped......blah blah blah...
How do you know they wouldn't have made a digging stick......
Love n kisses .....Chiseller....Anglo Saxon
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
Wow, there’s so much wrong with this I don’t know where to start.
As stated above the shovel question was just a verbal tool, not quite a bluff but along those lines I suppose. I am puzzeled by the fact that you think I was rude?
I normally only become rude as a proportional response to ignorant behaviour from others. Perhaps you could remind me when I first rattled your cage as you seem to have personal issues with me that I really don’t understand.
My post above is a simple précis of a cordial conversation that lasted about 20 minutes. My regrets at having to turn them away were largely because I quite liked them and under different circumstances could have got on with them quite well.
Swearing on Odin's or any other imaginary beings eye would mean little to me but I can say upon my own honour, which I hold very highly, that I have never illegally camped.
I take it from your attitude that you could not say the same and perhaps that, or simple envy, is a clue as to where your rude and aggressive attitude stems from.
Unless I am mistaken, you seem to have jumped to such erroneous conclusions simply because you think you know something about me from the posts I choose to make here. That would be on a par with believing in imaginary beings I suppose but not particularly wise.
In conclusion, dealing with such issues is never comfortable, as I said there are occasions when it makes me feel like a bit of a swine, but of course it is always easier to sit on the sidelines and whinge about things rather than stand up and do something about them.
