Being 'pressed' into doing something you don't really want to from press gangs maybe. Just an idea but I'm not sure on that one 
Phrase origins
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I've heard more than once that this is not as 'cut and dried' as people thinkDon't get me started on naval expressions
"Room to swing a cat" of course refers to the whip, not the moggy. Small ships (less than ships of "the line") didn't have "room to swing a cat (o' nine tails)"
Red
One tale is that a cat was a type sailing collier,(capable of hauling up to 300 plus tons of coal) Whitby cat boats sailed in fleets , so if the harbour was small it meant that other boats could not use it. (Captain Cook learnt to sail in a Whitby cat)
In addition, the use predates the British navy articles, (written 1661 in the reign of Charles II)
There was the practice of placing a cat in a leather bottle and using it as target practice for archers
Much ado about nothing written in 1598
Benedick
If I do, hang me in a bottle like a cat and shoot
robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
a quick google on "swing a cat"+etymology gives this, its interesting to try this for some of the other phrases here too.
Whether the 'cat' was a real moggy or the flail-like whip used to punish sailors in the British Navy isn't clear. Many reports claim that the cat in question is the 'cat o'nine tails'. As so often though, they don't supply evidence, just certainty. As a candidate for folk etymology goes the 'cat o' nine tails' story has it all - plausibility, a strong storyline and a nautical origin. That's enough to convince most people. The evidence is less convincing though. The phrase itself dates from at least 1665.
Richard Kephale's Medela Pestilentiae, 1665:
"They had not space enough (according to the vulgar saying) to swing a Cat in."
The nature of that citation makes it clear that the phrase was already in use prior to it being committed to paper. The 'cat o' nine tails' isn't recorded until 1695 though, in William Congreve's Love for Love:
"If you should give such language at sea, you'd have a cat-o'-nine-tails laid cross your shoulders."
If those dates are in fact the earliest uses then the 'cat o' nine tails' theory is wrong. The task for anyone who wants to claim that theory correct is to pre-date those citations.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/no-room-to-swing-a-cat.html
Whether the 'cat' was a real moggy or the flail-like whip used to punish sailors in the British Navy isn't clear. Many reports claim that the cat in question is the 'cat o'nine tails'. As so often though, they don't supply evidence, just certainty. As a candidate for folk etymology goes the 'cat o' nine tails' story has it all - plausibility, a strong storyline and a nautical origin. That's enough to convince most people. The evidence is less convincing though. The phrase itself dates from at least 1665.
Richard Kephale's Medela Pestilentiae, 1665:
"They had not space enough (according to the vulgar saying) to swing a Cat in."
The nature of that citation makes it clear that the phrase was already in use prior to it being committed to paper. The 'cat o' nine tails' isn't recorded until 1695 though, in William Congreve's Love for Love:
"If you should give such language at sea, you'd have a cat-o'-nine-tails laid cross your shoulders."
If those dates are in fact the earliest uses then the 'cat o' nine tails' theory is wrong. The task for anyone who wants to claim that theory correct is to pre-date those citations.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/no-room-to-swing-a-cat.html
Rule of thumb..
In French a thumb is a "puce" (sp?)
In French an inch is a "puce"
Thumb = inch
Rule - old form of ruler as in "a fool rule"
Rule of thumb= rough and ready measurement, actually using your thumb as a ruler.
My thumb is 1/2 mile long on 1/25000 scale maps and I use "rule of thumb" for measurement/nav
My span from fingers to nose - facing forward - is a yard facing away from my fingers - a metre.
My foot is a foot long - 12"
Body parts from cubits to "hand " hights for horses are the old way of measuring things before srtandardization came in - rule of thumb is self explainatory....
In French a thumb is a "puce" (sp?)
In French an inch is a "puce"
Thumb = inch
Rule - old form of ruler as in "a fool rule"
Rule of thumb= rough and ready measurement, actually using your thumb as a ruler.
My thumb is 1/2 mile long on 1/25000 scale maps and I use "rule of thumb" for measurement/nav
My span from fingers to nose - facing forward - is a yard facing away from my fingers - a metre.
My foot is a foot long - 12"
Body parts from cubits to "hand " hights for horses are the old way of measuring things before srtandardization came in - rule of thumb is self explainatory....
I had always assumed this was related to gold prospectors and the use of a pan for sifting river bed sediment for gold.
In days gone by, the way they cleaned chimney's was to climb on the roof and drop a live goose down it. It flapped on it's way down and this cleaned the flue. However, geese were expensive, so you tended to look after your's. If you did not, however, remember to extinguish the fire in the hearth, your 'Goose would be cooked'!
Being the underdog is an old wood sawing expression. When large logs were sawn in pits there was one guy on the top of the log who pulled up the saw and guided it. The other guy was under the log in the pit and he made the down stroke but also got all the sawdust from the sawing. The log was held in place by iron spikes called dogs. Therefore the underdog is the one who get all the nasty filthy jobs and is looked down on by everyone else.
This is one interesting thread.
I feel sad that I have nothing to contribute in the way of phrases but nursery rhymes... another matter....
Humpty Dumpty - King George going mad.
Mary, Mary Quite Contrary - Mary Queen of Scots who was notoriously vain (apparently)
Ring a Ring of Roses- The Plauge (as been mentioned before)
Hey Diddle Diddle - Exploits of the royal family circa 1800.
There's a few more but I can't think of them at the moment. They were sung at public houses, made up by town bards and contained ruder words than are in them now, and usually more verses too.
I feel sad that I have nothing to contribute in the way of phrases but nursery rhymes... another matter....
Humpty Dumpty - King George going mad.
Mary, Mary Quite Contrary - Mary Queen of Scots who was notoriously vain (apparently)
Ring a Ring of Roses- The Plauge (as been mentioned before)
Hey Diddle Diddle - Exploits of the royal family circa 1800.
There's a few more but I can't think of them at the moment. They were sung at public houses, made up by town bards and contained ruder words than are in them now, and usually more verses too.
Being 'pressed' into doing something you don't really want to from press gangs maybe. Just an idea but I'm not sure on that one
The phrase is a diminuation of 'impressed', as in 'impressed onto service' or forced into it.
Cheers
Nick
In days gone by, the way they cleaned chimney's was to climb on the roof and drop a live goose down it. It flapped on it's way down and this cleaned the flue. However, geese were expensive, so you tended to look after your's. If you did not, however, remember to extinguish the fire in the hearth, your 'Goose would be cooked'!
Nice one Jedadiah I didn't know that one, Keep 'em coming
Goosy Goosey Gander
- the religious thought police in Cromwellian times searching out Catholics and other religious misfits - goose stepping in their cavelry boots...
- the religious thought police in Cromwellian times searching out Catholics and other religious misfits - goose stepping in their cavelry boots...
Eric_Methven
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
'Letting the cat out of the bag' so I've been told, referred to what happened before a flogging. Once a sailor had been sentenced to so many lashes, he would have been issued with a length of rope and, in his spare time, would have had to make a 'cat o' nine tails'. The 'cat' would be inspected by the Bosun, and if it was not properly made, including the prescribed number of knots in each tail, the Bosun would make one. This was a bad thing, because if the Bosun had to make one, he got pretty pee'd off and would include bits of broken glass and small nails in the braid of the rope, so it'd take the skin off your back.
Anyway, it wasn't always convenient to serve out lashes on the day of the conviction and sentencing, so the 'cat' would be placed in a bag and hung somewhere on deck for everyone to see. On a day (sometimes weeks later) decided by the Captain, First Officer or someone appointed by them, when a flogging could take place without too much disruption to a ship's company, the 'cat' would be hung out of the bag, the tails trailing over the side letting everyone including the poor miscreant, that today was the day. The waiting could be worse than the actual flogging, and I've been told that after the first dozen lashes you don't really feel the lashes, just a continual pain until it stops.
Anyway, 'letting the cat out of the bag' meant somebody was soon to be in deep doo-doo's.
Eric
Anyway, it wasn't always convenient to serve out lashes on the day of the conviction and sentencing, so the 'cat' would be placed in a bag and hung somewhere on deck for everyone to see. On a day (sometimes weeks later) decided by the Captain, First Officer or someone appointed by them, when a flogging could take place without too much disruption to a ship's company, the 'cat' would be hung out of the bag, the tails trailing over the side letting everyone including the poor miscreant, that today was the day. The waiting could be worse than the actual flogging, and I've been told that after the first dozen lashes you don't really feel the lashes, just a continual pain until it stops.
Anyway, 'letting the cat out of the bag' meant somebody was soon to be in deep doo-doo's.
Eric
There's a few 'miscreants' who may benifit from that punishment nowadays Eric. Bring it back I say.
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Quite correct except the messenger (or viol) went around the Capstan. A Windlass in those days was a smaller drum with a horizontal shaft and found on small ships.
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
"Taken Aback"
another nautical one when the helmsman lets the wind get forward of the sail in a square-rigger and the ship is suddenly slowed or brought to a stop.
I wonder if he gets the cat for that
another nautical one when the helmsman lets the wind get forward of the sail in a square-rigger and the ship is suddenly slowed or brought to a stop.
I wonder if he gets the cat for that
re: floggings, in hospital in the early 80's I looked after a man in his 90's who had been a sailor, (I think merchant navy?) he had a huge crucifix tattoo covering his back. He told me it was popular to ward off the lash. I read later that the idea was
1 the tattooing in some way numbed the skin
2 the bosun would instinctively shy away from lashing the cross
3 the lash itself would shrink away...
1 the tattooing in some way numbed the skin
2 the bosun would instinctively shy away from lashing the cross
3 the lash itself would shrink away...
Eric_Methven
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Excellent thread this! Well, I know I'm just going to have to make a 'cat', just to see how difficult it is to do. You never know, what with some of the leather stuff I make, I might find a niche in the BDSM market.
Eric
Eric
The line "put him in bed with the Captain's daughter" from 'What do you do with a drunken sailor' did not refer to an actual female person, but was a euphemism for the cat o' nine tails. Not sure what he's doing in bed with it, though?
I've heard the Cat has nine tails because of the way the rope is constructed, with the main cable made of three twisted ropes, each made of three twisted yarns (not sure I got the terminology right). So the the sailor was issued a single length of cable, which he then had to deconstruct into its nine strands.
I've heard the Cat has nine tails because of the way the rope is constructed, with the main cable made of three twisted ropes, each made of three twisted yarns (not sure I got the terminology right). So the the sailor was issued a single length of cable, which he then had to deconstruct into its nine strands.
Cat o nine tails as the most common "rope" on a ship wasn't rope but cable - cordage made of 3 yarns each consisting of 3 strands and hence 9 in total.
