Old canvas Tat !!

[Ferret75]

We've got an app for that....

👹➕🌉➕🐐=🍴🕛

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[dewi]

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Owl bridge square equals food time?

 

[Toddy]

Ehm, trolls eat goats

M

 

[RonW]

'Ej, stop bashing them trolls!
There're nice ones in the forests around here too, y'know.....

Apart from the practical reasons as given by Toddy and British Red for instance and the personal preferences mentioned by a handful of others, there's also the ethical aspect for me.
Have you ever tried (or just even given it a thought) to retrace the process step by step in which a certain item, say a backpack, has reached you and what was needed in order to get it there in means of raw materials, labour and transport?
Of course any decent modern "bushcrafter" doesn't give a rat's bottom about sustainability, pollution, ecological footprint and more humbug like that. They just buy the next fashionable nylon backpack from China and throw the (one year) old one in the trash. The more ecologically-minded one sells them of course. 'Cause that's more sound economics too. But they do love nature, especially the local park and Ray Mears' documentaries...

 

[Stew]

To be honest, I wouldn't take a post by someone proclaiming themselves as an 'expert' too seriously.

 

[Ferret75]

'Ej, stop bashing them trolls!
There're nice ones in the forests around here too, y'know.....

Apart from the practical reasons as given by Toddy and British Red for instance and the personal preferences mentioned by a handful of others, there's also the ethical aspect for me.
Have you ever tried (or just even given it a thought) to retrace the process step by step in which a certain item, say a backpack, has reached you and what was needed in order to get it there in means of raw materials, labour and transport?
Of course any decent modern "bushcrafter" doesn't give a rat's bottom about sustainability, pollution, ecological footprint and more humbug like that. They just buy the next fashionable nylon backpack from China and throw the (one year) old one in the trash. The more ecologically-minded one sells them of course. 'Cause that's more sound economics too. But they do love nature, especially the local park and Ray Mears' documentaries...

I agree with Ron on alot of the points he has made (leave the trolls alone for one!) Lmao!

But from the point of practicality, yes lighter more space saving kit saves effort / energy - very important for those of you who go into the more extreme environments and need this edge. But in 'day to day' bushcraft how many people then add another piece of kit to take advantage of this?! Done it myself.

As I'm learning more, my kit is naturally becoming less, I also try to maintain anything I own so it will last ages, as Ron has said this has economical and environmental benefits, hopefully works on both a global and local level.
Overall I think mindfulness of necessity and upkeep of your kit also makes for an excellent Bushcraft discipline too.

I think there are just many types of Bushcrafter, those who love the very traditional kit and the materials of yesteryear because they feel in touch not just with the crafts and environment but the people who came before.

There are those who love the new tech kit for all its modern advantages and flexibility and being able to push themselves further because of it (and of course, because its shiny!!! Oh so shiny... Mmmm titanium!!! Ahem, sorry. Knife addict in recovery!)

And those who like to move between the two by precise degree, weigh up the exact advantages and disadvantages, mixing and matching. I have bits of both and as many have said, the newer materials have excellent properties for some things, but true robustness at a reasonable cost isn't quite there yet.

For me its each to their own and progress doesn't mean better, its just another place to be evaluated relative to what you value and what you want (BR you've started another excellent thread here mate... Hope you're a bit more chilled than last night, talk about Squirrel with a sorehead!!! LOL!!)


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[Bushcraftexpert]

I've been on a course and they said I was just like an expert. I have a certificate to prove it. I bet you don't even go out.

 

[Man of Tanith]

Mod moment Lets keep it friendly folks......

 

[mountainm]

I've been on a course and they said I was just like an expert. I have a certificate to prove it. I bet you don't even go out.

So you're certified?

 

[Ferret75]

So you're certified?

Me too!... several times! 😵 its all the mushrooms! Lmao!

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[brambles]

Apart from the practical reasons as given by Toddy and British Red for instance and the personal preferences mentioned by a handful of others, there's also the ethical aspect for me.
Have you ever tried (or just even given it a thought) to retrace the process step by step in which a certain item, say a backpack, has reached you and what was needed in order to get it there in means of raw materials, labour and transport?
Of course any decent modern "bushcrafter" doesn't give a rat's bottom about sustainability, pollution, ecological footprint and more humbug like that. They just buy the next fashionable nylon backpack from China and throw the (one year) old one in the trash. The more ecologically-minded one sells them of course. 'Cause that's more sound economics too. But they do love nature, especially the local park and Ray Mears' documentaries...

As we say here ... aye, right.

I have a Berghaus 75 litre rucksack that is all synthetic material which I bought in 1983, still going as strong as it ever was. I also have a Karrimor Hot Ice bought in 1984 that is still perfectly useable - the lightweight Silvaguard version. I wonder - can anyone tell me where the vast cotton fields of Britain are? No? You mean it's all grown abroad and shipped here? What about sustainability and transport?

Now don't get me wrong - I have some items that are of more traditional material because I like the feel of them and the aesthetics, I accept them for what they are and if you prefer the fashion of traditional materials then all power to you. But please don't pretend it's anything other than that - a fashion. If the explorers and bushcrafters of yesteryear had had access to modern materials, then they would have used them. After all, what they did use was the best that was available to them THEN. They did'nt continue to use what were used generations before them because they had found something better.

Oh, and "bushcraftexpert" ... when you're in a hole it's best to stop digging. A certificate? Really?

 

[sandbender]

I've been on a course and they said I was just like an expert. I have a certificate to prove it. I bet you don't even go out.

Good enough. But with that said is Bushcraft something that one can ever truly describe oneself as being an expert in, I mean there is so much to learn.

Additionally, as others more expert than I have often mentioned, 'Gear' and 'Bushcraft' are quite separate things, there is no such thing as bushcraft gear, merely the gear you might choose to use while practicing your hobby (bushcraft).

Bushcraft is the knowledge in your head and skills that you command, quite a separate thing from whatever you might choose to wear or cart your stuff around in.

So, in summary.

You may well be a bushcraft expert, but does that expertise permit you to pass judgement of the clothing and gear carrying choices of others?

Just curious.

 

[Toddy]

I agree with Brambles. Our modern tarps don't seem to last near as long, but my Berghaus rucksacks are now nearly twenty years old and they are still rock solid sound.
Then again, so are my waxed cotton jackets

M

 

[Ferret75]

Good enough. But with that said is Bushcraft something that one can ever truly describe oneself as being an expert in, I mean there is so much to learn.

Additionally, as others more expert than I have often mentioned, 'Gear' and 'Bushcraft' are quite separate things, there is no such thing as bushcraft gear, merely the gear you might choose to use while practicing your hobby (bushcraft).

Bushcraft is the knowledge in your head and skills that you command. Quite a separate from whatever you might choose to wear or cart your stuff around in.

So, in summary.

You may well be a bushcraft expert, but does that expertise permit you to pass judgement of the clothing and gear carrying choices of others?

Just curious.

nice thoughts, again each to their own. Varies with budget, approach, mindset, skill level and the environment they want to learn / practice them in. The good thing about a forum is it helps you decide which way you lean towards, what you feel you want to try and some of the possible pitfalls, expert or otherwise. Alot of the threads on here are usually based on trialling, reviewing, making and modding -- its half the fun of it for some!

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[RonW]

As we say here ... aye, right.

I have a Berghaus 75 litre rucksack that is all synthetic material which I bought in 1983, still going as strong as it ever was. I also have a Karrimor Hot Ice bought in 1984 that is still perfectly useable - the lightweight Silvaguard version. I wonder - can anyone tell me where the vast cotton fields of Britain are? No? You mean it's all grown abroad and shipped here? What about sustainability and transport?

Now don't get me wrong - I have some items that are of more traditional material because I like the feel of them and the aesthetics, I accept them for what they are and if you prefer the fashion of traditional materials then all power to you. But please don't pretend it's anything other than that - a fashion. If the explorers and bushcrafters of yesteryear had had access to modern materials, then they would have used them. After all, what they did use was the best that was available to them THEN. They did'nt continue to use what were used generations before them because they had found something better.

Oh, and "bushcraftexpert" ... when you're in a hole it's best to stop digging. A certificate? Really?

Hej Brambles, good to see you're still using those old synthetics you got way back then. I do believe that that would make you quite an exception now, wouldn't it?
And let's face it, the synthetics made and used in the 80's are quite a difference from the ones made and used today, right? Same goes for any other material, actually.
But if you really want to analyse it, then we should breakdown the logistical chain step by step. You'd be surprised..... Any idea how much oil, chemicals, energy and transport is needed to just produce the fibre??

Yet still, looking at what was needed to make it, ship it and how much longterm waste it would give once produced, used and discarded, then I do believe that leather and canvas, even those made today, would still be preferable from an ecological standpoint or even an economical one. Today's leather and canvas would be less bad, says it better maybe.
Now comparing your generation synthetic backpack to canvas/leather equipment from the same era, which is more available today? I can only speak for the market here, but the vast majority are still the steelframed canvas ones. I was given a perfectly useable specimen from the 50's or 60's the other day and I have seen, had and used plenty more. Bergens or the Swedish m39 ring a bell? I also had the "pleasure" of seeing and using the synthetic counterparts from those days....
But what about all that ww2-vintage stuff that still is being sold and used or the 1950's and 60's webbing items? How many synthetic ones are left from say the gulf wars or any other area of hard use?
Yes, explorers would probably have used goretex, nylon and, titanium all the others. Question is, would they have come equally far? Would the price in gear, effort and lives have been equal? I do believe the real smart ones would have looked at what would do the job, not only what was available. Many of the smart ones adapted local materials, that were much better suited than the stuff they brought with the from home.
So no; the fashionside belongs completely to those fancypancy multistrap/flap/crap backpacks we see today or have seen the past decades. And while the Bergens and m39 will soldier on for many more years, the vast majority of today's backpacks will litter the landscape.... alongside with all that new Chinese so-called canvas. Because that it just as crappy or even worse.

And that's just the backpacks....

 

[decorum]

I've been on a course and they said I was just like an expert.

Take the stage then and show us how you* do it.


* Most folk understand that there's usually more than one way to do most things. So I've used _you_ rather _to_

 

[dewi]

I've been on a course and they said I was just like an expert. I have a certificate to prove it. I bet you don't even go out.

I've highlighted where you've misunderstood. They said like an expert. Did they specify which bit of an expert you are like? It could have been your brewing up method, nowt wrong with being an expert cuppa maker!

When I read you got a certificate though, I genuinely let out an audible 'awww'. We have something in common now, I have a certificate for horse riding, my instructor added 'world's greatest horse rider' on it and two gold star stickers. Blimey, that was 31 years ago, it was a brilliant day out!

 

[Ferret75]

Errrmm, I think he gets the idea now gents! Let's put the sharp sticks away before someone has an eye out...

Yours sincerely, Pete, (Health and Safety Guru, part time Tea making Expert).

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[brambles]

Hej Brambles, good to see you're still using those old synthetics you got way back then. I do believe that that would make you quite an exception now, wouldn't it?
And let's face it, the synthetics made and used in the 80's are quite a difference from the ones made and used today, right? Same goes for any other material, actually.

Yes - the current stuff is better

Yet still, looking at what was needed to make it, ship it and how much longterm waste it would give once produced, used and discarded, then I do believe that leather and canvas, even those made today, would still be preferable from an ecological standpoint or even an economical one. Today's leather and canvas would be less bad, says it better maybe.

Still not revealed the secret cotton sites of England to me



Now comparing your generation synthetic backpack to canvas/leather equipment from the same era, which is more available today? I can only speak for the market here, but the vast majority are still the steelframed canvas ones. I was given a perfectly useable specimen from the 50's or 60's the other day and I have seen, had and used plenty more. Bergens or the Swedish m39 ring a bell? I also had the "pleasure" of seeing and using the synthetic counterparts from those days....
But what about all that ww2-vintage stuff that still is being sold and used or the 1950's and 60's webbing items? How many synthetic ones are left from say the gulf wars or any other area of hard use?

The WW2 vintage stuff you see is surplus that was never issued, made in the milliuons and never needed. Gulf War/Afghanistan issue made in far less numbers so usually has been issued. Equipment used in combat will not come out unscathed, it's designed to be thrown away.

Yes, explorers would probably have used goretex, nylon and, titanium all the others. Question is, would they have come equally far? Would the price in gear, effort and lives have been equal? I do believe the real smart ones would have looked at what would do the job, not only what was available. Many of the smart ones adapted local materials, that were much better suited than the stuff they brought with the from home.

You mean like using dogs versus horses in the Antarctic? Correct choices worked well for Amundsen.

So no; the fashionside belongs completely to those fancypancy multistrap/flap/crap backpacks we see today or have seen the past decades. And while the Bergens and m39 will soldier on for many more years, the vast majority of today's backpacks will litter the landscape.... alongside with all that new Chinese so-called canvas. Because that it just as crappy or even worse.

And that's just the backpacks....

Your comments all seem prejudiced by the cheapo disposable "festival" type offerings. Am I replying to you on the basis that since you espouse natural fibres you must be going out wearing denim jeans and a 1970s leather car coat?

.............

 

[dewi]

Your comments all seem prejudiced by the cheapo disposable "festival" type offerings. Am I replying to you on the basis that since you espouse natural fibres you must be going out wearing denim jeans and a 1970s leather car coat?

Hey... What's wrong with denim jeans and 1970's leather coats? You've just described my entire wardrobe there Brambles!