New law on knives for under 18?

[jakunen]

Couldn't do that now Bambodoggy, you'd be done for attempted assault, destruction of property, racism and god only knows what else...

Under the eyes of the government there is no such thing as 'harmless fun' or 'innocent fun' nowadays. The only permissible fun is going to the cinema or playing exceptionally violent often pseudo pornigraphic games on pcs, x-boxes and ps2s that extoll the virues of stealing a car, dropping drugs off at clubs, picking up persons of negotiatable favours and trying to outrun police...

 

[bambodoggy]

Sad isn't it Jak.... suddenly that idea of dropping off the map and leaving society to it's own devises doesn't seem so far fetched or unappealing....roll on the wilderness life forever! ! !

 

[falling rain]

I have a friend who is a police officer and I'll be seeing him sometime over Christmas so I'll ask him what their guidelines are, and what would be the score if he stopped a car (or person on foot) and the occupant was a 'Bushcrafter' with Axe, Knife, and folding saw. As far as I understand it if you can prove a legitimate reason for carrying the items you should be OK, but the laws the law and you still would be in possesion of offensive weapons even if you were in the countryside. Michael Ryan did most of his killing in a rural area of Hungerford so I really don't know how it would be dealt with. Also the type of clothing Bushcrafters wear can look a little para military at times and to the uninitiated may look like you're some kind of S.W.A.T or gun freak. Of course if you were in the middle of a city there would be absolutely no justification for carrying a knife but as another thread was saying (fear of the woods) some of these nutters go to the woods to carry out their rapes or murders (with Knives) You'd have to prove to a police officer you wern't one of these nutters !! It's all very complicated and maybe there is no definative answer and depends on which copper stops you but if they really wanted to take it to the letter of the law anyone of us could find themselves in serious trouble. All of the tools we routinely carry in the woods, are at the end of the day offensive weapons. It may be different for the chef with his set of knives on the way to work, but few of us do Bushcraft for a job as has already been mentioned. If you really think about it it's pretty scary.

 

[jakunen]

That's part of the whole problem Nick, we don't carry offensive weapons.

What we carry are tools, for use in the woods to help us camp. Its onyl our blinkered headliner society that brands them 'offensive weapons'. I'd just like to know why cars aren't labelled offensive weapons, they kill far more. Especially in conjuction with alcohol...

 

[Wayne]

Sadly as long as the majority of the public only watch the telly, go to the pub and try to chat up the bar keep then any activity you do will set you apart from the masses and therefore you will be in some sort of out group that can be beaten with the stick of media induced hype.

Are we going to be the last generation that can safely go into the wild places carrying out bushcraft tools without committing a crime?

We all choose to ignore the odd bit of legislation but an automatic 5 year stretch is going too far. I also wouldn't want to rely on a jury not to convict me either. I have served on a jury and found the behavior of barristers to be mind blowing.

I know this thread is becoming somewhat polictical but this is possibly the biggest threat to Bushcraft in the UK for years

 

[bambodoggy]

FallingRain, Wayne and the rest of you are all very right.... you may be lucky enough to be stopped by a nice understanding police officer but as I said earlier in this thread if they bring in the 5 year sentance...is it worth gambling 5 years of your life against carrying a woodlore knife? ? ?

The offensive weapon laws are the least of your worries as a bushcrafter, it's not so hard to prove that what you have isn't an offencive weapon although as has been stated in our courts things can easily go either way.... what you need to look into more carefully is the points and blades act....this is what I fell foul of and while it isn't as serious as an offensive weapons charge it does leave you with a criminal record and what really rubbed salt in it was that during an agournment I bumped into the police officer in the loo and I swear to god he actually appologised to me and said if he'd known it would go this far he'd have sent me on my way when he stopped me. It's not always the police to blame for being heavy handed. after the whole thing was over the court clarke handed said item back to me and warned me to be careful taking it home!!!!!! I asked him how I'd got it back and he said it wasn't illegal to own this item but just have it in a public place (in this case the boot of my car), I asked him what was to stop the police arresting me again for the same thing on the way home and he said nothing...that's why he warned me to be careful!!!!! How?
The difference, by the way, has nothing to do with size of blade etc.

Having said all of the above I will still be taking my knife's and axes and saws into the woods and to our meet-ups.... I have no intention of giving up my tools without a second day in court....just hope it doesn't come to that!

 

[jakunen]

Having said all of the above I will still be taking my knife's and axes and saws into the woods and to our meet-ups.... I have no intention of giving up my tools without a second day in court....just hope it doesn't come to that!

Here! Here! bambam.

The crazy thing is I carry far more blades, and also far more dangerous stuff when I have to go out on engineering jobs than when I'm going into the woods and the coppers just smile, nod and ask me where they can get the same items from as they want to do some DIY.

And when I worked as a locksmith they NEVER asked why I had a small jemmy, a padsaw, various master keys, several 'devices' for getting cars, and other sundries about my person...:?:

 

[falling rain]

That's part of the whole problem Nick, we don't carry offensive weapons.

What we carry are tools, for use in the woods to help us camp. Its onyl our blinkered headliner society that brands them 'offensive weapons'. I'd just like to know why cars aren't labelled offensive weapons, they kill far more. Especially in conjuction with alcohol...

Exactly Jak. We carry tools. But not everyone will see them as tools as you said. Lets have a little scenario.
You're out in the woods minding your own business carving a bit of wood with your knife dressed in you normal olive green gear. (Some people wear DPM but hey.) Little old Mrs/Mr - do gooder, always poking her nose in, walks by and sees a man with a knife in the woods. (Not a man passing time, and enjoying himself at peace with the world) Calls police, police come. What are you doing then mate ?. - I'm practicing my hobby which is Bushcraft. - What's Bushcraft then ? - You explain. - The fact is sir you are in possession of tools and a knife that are not legal in a public place. (yes I know, but we havn't all got access to private woodland before anyone mentions it) and be honest have you ever got your knife out to trim a bit of bark etc in the local public woods. I bet we all have.) - Arrested - up before the jury - (as Wayne said ) would you like to bank on it that the jury would know or care what Bushcraft is. The fact is - YOU HAD THAT KNIFE AND THE LAW SAYS IT'S ILLEGAL. Not everyone would understand. - Bang - 6 months jail :yikes:
This of course is an extreme scenario but however not impossible. And if you were unlucky enough to have a very good and over zealous prosecutor against you, it could all end in a lot of tears. I will continue to carry my tools and I will continue to practice my Bushcraft out of sight of the public as far as I possibly can. I just hope that keen copper, and judge, and jury never come my way.

 

[bambodoggy]

I'm not a big fan of Prince Phillip as he does seem a bit of a prat but for entertainment value some of the things he says are priceless but one thing he said after dunblane struck a cord with me..... He was totally slated and ripped to bits in the press for saying it but I think he was quite right. It strikes me that the press hammered him just because......they could!

This is what he said, not verbatum as I can't remember but you'll get the gist of it.

"If we are banning guns because of the actions of one mad man with a hand gun then I can only imagine we will soon be banning cricket and baseball as there is plenty of cases of these bats being used for unlawful purposes".

He's saying exactly what most of us are saying....it's not the item that matters, it's the person carrying them and what they do or intend to do with them that matter.
He's still an old duffer but there's a brain in there somewhere! lol

 

[jakunen]

May be we shouldall start carrying a copy of RM's books and videos with us to prove that we are all perfectly upstanding and responsible members of the public. After all, even the girls in Tescos working on the checkout know who that 'hunk wiv de beard is. Ooh he's dreamy. I wouldn't mind sharing a sleeping bag with himmm'.

PSYCHE NURSE TO CHECKOUT 11. STAT!!!

 

[bambodoggy]

Lol...you watch little britain Jak?

Ooooooowwwwww, he's Goooooorgeous!!!!!! Fwwwwwoooorrrrrrr!!!!!!

 

[Wayne]

you guys need to get out more ):

 

[jakunen]

Bambam, no, I rarely watch tv. Too much s**** on it like Corrie and all that. Just had a chat with a girl on the check out.

Wayne, I know, that's why I'm on this forum and try to go on as many meet ups as I can...and why I want a car so that I can just pick up my pack and disappear for a fw days and forget about BT, engineers, the internet, :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4:

 

[falling rain]

Here! Here! bambam.

The crazy thing is I carry far more blades, and also far more dangerous stuff when I have to go out on engineering jobs than when I'm going into the woods and the coppers just smile, nod and ask me where they can get the same items from as they want to do some DIY.

And when I worked as a locksmith they NEVER asked why I had a small jemmy, a padsaw, various master keys, several 'devices' for getting cars, and other sundries about my person...:?:

There we go Jak. you wern't stopped because you needed those tools for your job, same as the chef in my earlier post. We do Bushcraft for a hobby, so would a man who was an exhaust fitter at quick fit and a Bushcrafter in his spare time get away with carrying a knife in the woods on a sunday morning. He may, but it's just possible he also may not. I'm getting a Sami knife for christmas with a 9'' blade. That's over the limit so I'll only be using that on very private land. BUT and here's the rub. How do I get to that private land. and the answer is along public highways or along a public footpath etc. I could well be stopped. :shock:

 

[Gary]

I wouldn't bank on it Jak, I have often heard 'Ray who?' even on bushcraft courses - its no get out of jail free card.

As for the scenerio, I often practice my skills on Public land, Epping forest is covered with byelaws as well as the standard ones - which is good as way to many idiots have access to it - but my point is if I go over there and decide to carve a spoon for example I have to practice utmost caution. I will find a sheltered spot and keep an eager eye out the whole time.

Most people make more noise than a passing wilderbeast so putting the knife away isnt a problem but personally I think it is wrong we should be made to behave like this.

What has happened to this country in the last 10/15 years that has made it such a terrible place to live, I spent 15 years of my live defending this country for what? - I was going to say police state but lets face facts only the innocent law abiding poeple need fear the police anyone else just laughs at them.

Sorry semi-rant over.

 

[jakunen]

Ah, but Nick I was stopped without any ID on me. They only took my word that I was a locksmith...

I've also recently got a very nice Sami from Gary, and as I generally travel by public transport...

One thing I have learnt is to be proactive.
A few years ago I had to go to a Warlords wargamming meet in London during a time when guns were in the papers all day every day and had to take up a number of replica weapons. Being a responsible person I contacted BTP and asked for their advice. I told them what I would be carrying (various handguns, a few rifles, some machine guns and a shot gun with around 2,000 rounds of BB ammo), how I would be carrying it all and what trains/tubes I intended to carry. I got a very nice letter back thanking me for being such a responsible person and saying that I should take the letter with me in case of any trouble. I did get stopped as some old biddy was suspicious of a guy carrying a few gun cases, but after a brief discussion and then about 30 minutes chatting with the guys about the sport of Airsoft and letting them fondle my gear, they gave me a lift to the event and asked for detaisl of the games so they could have some fun too. (I nearly had to rifle but one guy to get my shotgun back!!!).

So maybe if we did similar when carrying a Hoodoo size collection of blades, the police might be a bit more understanding. Maybe a letter or e-mail from whoever organises the event with contact details?

 

[Wayne]

I am always happy to be proactive and take a sensible action. However the point is we are law abiding people and often as not we are practising skills alone away from organised events. Although meet ups are good bushcraft is for me a solitary activity. i wouldn't want to only be able to go to organised events or risk arrest.

 

[bambodoggy]

It won't always help Jak....when I got done under the points and blades act I was on my way to the cadets to run a downed aircrew survival weekend for the younger cadets.... as soon as it happened my Sqn adj sent a letter on headed paper to explain why I had what I had...it made no difference to the case going to court and when it was there my CO came and spoke for me...again it made no difference!

I do agree this is a good approach if you can do it but imagine having to do this everytime you want to nip down the local woods for an afternoon....it's amost like asking permission!!!!!

I know what Gary means....I too find myself hiding as people go by because I have tools that could look up setting to some people.... then I always feel cross for having to "hide" to carry out my hobby!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Snufkin]

I know what Gary means....I too find myself hiding as people go by because I have tools that could look up setting to some people.... then I always feel cross for having to "hide" to carry out my hobby!!!!!!!!!!

Then of course you are a man in the woods armed with a knife and acting in a suspicious manner.... You can't win.

 

[SquirrelBoy]

A bit off topic - but I remember being stopped by the police, was driving an XR2 at the time and they asked if they could search my car..

I said ok and they went over my motor and me, not much fun in the middle of a busy street. Anyway when they came across a plastic bag full of big chunks of flint they gave me very funny looks and made calls on their radios (to whom?) - even when explaining the Ray Mears factor (who..? etc). As Gary says its no card to freedom. They let me go along but not before taking my details - made me feel like a criminal.

Also the amount of police presents around here (Heathrow M25) is getting absolutly mad. I was driving home on Monday and passed a line of ARMED Police on a duel carridgeway, must of been at least 10 cars, bikes the lot.. Wednesday was very much the same. I know its probably for a special reason but do think the times we live in are getting very suspisious of everything going on. Good for the countrys security I guess but what about our right to live :roll:
Can you imagine being caught with a few craft tools, bag full of hexi tabs,cotton wool soaked in vaseline, snare wire... on the way to or from a wood - `Of course you were sonny,now lets have a chat back at the office...`

The times are a changing me thinks and I really dont I like it