New law on knives for under 18?

[RAPPLEBY2000]

i know, me too, i'm sort of agreeing with both sides really, i don't have a problem with responsible adults carrying anything.

its the potential for it to get into the wrong hands easily that i have the problem with.

do you remeber the day you were 16 or 18 you suddenly felt the urge to try out the new 18+laws, (in more than one way :roll: ) same goes for this if a thug wants to buy a knife or any other tool and use it as a weapon they can. it's just having of them on the street which i think is the important issue.

i don't think anyone wants to stop knifes being used for sport/leisure it's the use by young/ teenage men/women for fighting in cities that is the concern.

 

[chugnut7]

Minimum five year sentence for carrying a knife. BBC News Article

Bloke on the radio this morning seemed to think that this was unlikely to become law. Cited the many legitimate reasons for needed to carry a knife i.e. anglers preparing bait etc.

 

[Tantalus]

just my tuppence worth.........

havin lived in varous countries around europe

britain is fast becoming the most "antiseptic" country that i know

everything remotely nasty is being removed from our streets and our lives ....... including basic freedoms but i digress

i grew up in the country and animals and plants are food

only to get the food out of em you need a knife, it is simple

have eaten fish on uninhabited islands in the med

worked grape picking in france

spent countless weekends in the bohemian backwoods

wandered bavarian forests foraging for mushrooms

please don't get me wrong about kids and schooling, but the authorities have been running schools with ever increasing regulation about what they can and can not teach

somewhere along the line they forgot to add ....and taking knives into the streets to try and scare people is bad

now instead of admitting the apalling holes in discipline they plan to make it illegal and arrest people who "don't know any better"

sorry if this sounds political but we used to get safety lessons on crossing the road, and brushing our teeth, don't play with matches, what would be wrong with a section on being responsible around sharp objects?

all of the above activities involved sharp knives for legitimate purposes

fishing hunting foraging etc

as for a ban well i just dont see it being too practical

any 12 year old can pick a kitchen knife out of the cutlery drawer

will parents be held responsible for this? :?:

Tant

 

[Realgar]

I've carried a knife all the time since I was eight - even at school. The teachers knew about it and there was no problem coming from a rural area I think most kids did, they were never used for anything more sinister than sharpening pencils and cutting paper (well ok, some kids carved their names in the desks ). In the current climate I have the sense to take it out of my pocket before going out for the night These days even at work where I use mine extensively people look at you like you're some mind of underworlder when you get it out to do something perfectly legit like trim a bit of wire or slice tubing. I've seen a number of news articles stating that noone can have a legitimate reason for owning blades such as machetes - well some of do, most of us here I suspect.

The media is rapidly equating knives with guns, I can see the point with the number of stabbings that go on but if this carries on we'll be into plastic safety scissors. A creative mind can always find a useful weapon, even a house key can be nasty.

Realgar

 

[tenbears10]

I agree we need laws to stop people committing crimes that is obvious but what I don't agree with is that we need laws to ban everything that can be used to commit a crime. It is a sliding scale if knives are not allowed then criminals will use something else. In prison, I believe, people make an effective weapon by melting the bristles on a toothbrush and sharpening the hard plastic blob. Shall we ban toothbrushes?

The way to create a society that understands how to act responsibly is not to impose stricter controls on everything, as people have said banning things glamorizes them even more in the eyes of young impressionable people. It is not so cool to carry a knife if your dad and everyone else you know has one in their pocket.

Bill

 

[R-Bowskill]

About 10 years ago I was on the jury for a murder trial, Lad stabbed his sisters' boyfriend with a SMALL kitchen knife. One thrust and it went into the other lads heart. He picked it up off the kitchen side one day when there was an argument. Nothing like the insane designs alot of youngsters seem to be impressed by that are totally impractical for any legitimate use.

Sometimes in shops I hear people who seem to be still in school saying how great some knife that's styled on something in a sci-fi film is which is worrying as there is nothing legal they could use it for and if it's just going on the wall it doesn't need to have an edge.

In many ways this is like the issue of martial arts weapons, In principle I'm opposed to bans, but if something can kill another person then restricting the sale to people who can show 'good charicter' and a legitimate reason to have it etc as with firearms is a better option than either a free for all or an inflexible ban.

It sounds good in the media when politicians propose banning something, usually gets them some votes, but without enforcement and penalties a ban isn't worth the paper it's written on. Teaching people to take responsibility for their actions is harder but more effective.

 

[Lithril]

When I was at school I know a guy in our year who stabbed another in the leg, we were in home economics and guess what... we were cutting veg up, the school supplies those knives!

 

[Andy]

When I was at school (god I feel old) 4 craft knives went missing in one hour. These are nasty shape things. Enen in this case I never herd of anyone getting attacked.
Someone said how they wouldn't want their kids goig to a school where kids brought big nasty knives like the ones he and his mates used to take to school. I'm not saying I think knives should be allowed in school with no reason but did anyone get hurt?

 

[bambodoggy]

There are very adequate laws in place to control knife use and purchase....all the police/government have to do is enforce them.

None of this is about sensible use of knives, it's about media hype. All the way through you could change the word "knife" to "gun", "crossbow", "Blowtorch" etc etc etc.....

When are we going to wake up to the fact that it's people that can be evil not these items?

If, and it's a very big IF, this auto 5 year jail term comes in....some of YOU will go to jail....don't think you won't because you see "bushcraft" as legitimate....a mandatory sentence is just that...mandatory! You would also be unwise to rest your freedom on the fact the the copper who pulled you was sympathetic to you carrying whatever you are carrying....I wouldn't want to play russian roulette with 5 years of my life on the dependency of a policeman's mood.

It's sad that we need to check/search schoolkids but then we have to search everyone at an airport, going into some themeparks (certainly in Florida this year) so why not have a metal detector at the school entrance?
I'd rather my kids were searched each morning in a this non-invasive way than they and me risked 5 years in prison because I wanted to teach them bushcraft.

This is not to mention the fact that those members of sociatey who shouldn't carry knives will still carry them anyway....again, look at hand guns.....nobody's allowed them but lots of criminals have them......meanwhile our olympic pistol team has to practice abroad.....madness!

 

[BIG-TARGET]

Remember, Kings and dictators perfer unarmed subjects!!!!!!

 

[C_Claycomb]

Heading off topic :roll:
In this particular case I don't think that "Kings and dictators" has the slightest bit to do with it. To be honest, I don't think that the idea of an armed populace keeping goverment in line has any bearing on anything in the UK. The populace here hasn't been armed enough, or had that revolutionary mindset, for a very very long time.

Back on....

I don't see why it is assumed that young people cannot be responsible. There are fewer and fewer things which young people can be "trusted" to do, there are ever more rules of things they can and cannot do. The law for a long time took the view that people under a certain age weren't even responsible enough to answer for their own actions.

I think that is where much of the problems have come from. This hole we are in is the result of our constant effort to make things "safe" and "free". The combination of permisive laws, and reduced personal responsibility has brought us here. Reducing responsibility further, by banning yet more things, or controlling them more tightly will not fix the problem.

Society has to be self policing. The only way that the police and the government can guarantee the safety of everyone is to strip all personal freedom. They can't stop every crime unless there is a policeman on every corner.

Additionally, I haven't heard of anyone getting stabbed with some Gil Hiben Klingon death cudgel. If some adolescent thinks that would be cool, more fool them, sharp or not it will probably end up under their bed, only taken out to show mates. The knife that will be used as a weapon most often will be some market stall folder, cheap hunting knife, something from the kitchen section, or a craft knife. Screw drivers, or even melted cling film work fine too...

I would rather live in a world where I could be mugged at knife point, than in one where I pass multiple metal detectors and density scanners while out shopping. :-(

 

[Aelfred]

"There are fewer and fewer things which young people can be "trusted" to do, there are ever more rules of things they can and cannot do.... Society has to be self policing."

Couldn't agree more Chris, lack of trust and fear of allowing children to make mistakes for themselves restrict young people from developing responsible attitudes towards all the 'cool' things they aren't allowed to go near.

In response there is a push to abdicate all responsibility for oneself and prostrate everybody in front of the state in an effort to protect the vast majority from an acknowledged few.

Calls for even stronger knife laws have been called for, including:

"a five-year minimum jail term for carrying an object with a blade longer than three inches, which would equalise the penalties for knives and guns.... Also want to see a six-month minimum jail term for carrying a blade shorter than three inches, or three months for juveniles."

Pretty heavy demands. Full story at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2763,1372631,00.html

 

[bambodoggy]

That's a very valid point you make about guns/knives both having the same penalty Aelfred....

I'm a law abiding person but if I was a criminal (regardless of age but it appies to youngsters just as much...the "Cool" brigade) and I knew I'd get 5 years for carrying a gun and i'd get 5 years for carrying a knife....then if I'm honest I'd rather have the gun....better self defence and much bigger cool factor and show off ability.....and seeing as I'm doing a 5 stretch it might as well be for a sexy Glock17 than a rusty old sickle!

Do you all see the point now? Lets seperate guns and knives..... guns only shoot so while still a tool they are a limited tool....but a knife, well, that's about the most versatile tool I can think of.....

 

[tenbears10]

If I read the Guardian article correctly then these parents are trying to push to introduce a mandatory jail sentence of 6 months for carrying a knife less than 3 inches 'on the street'.

That makes no distinction between fixed or folding, locking or not, valid reason or scally wag. All of which means that if this is made law I would go from being a responsible law abiding adult to a criminal overnight just because I have a sak on my belt to open boxes and post at work. Why is that right?

:aargh4:

When this country learn that you can not stop crime by banning things that could be used as weapons? if knives are banned only criminals will have knives and the ones that don't will stab people with scissors. Will we ban them next?

I am going to have to move to another country if this keeps up.

Bill

 

[Roving Rich]

Well, I think Bambodoggy said it best from my point of view.
Banning knives will have no effect on crime. Criminals will still carry knives as they do hand guns. Psycopaths will continue to mame and kill people using kitchen knives screwdrivers and broken bottles. The only result is honest law abiding citizens wont have a pocket knife for the million and one applications they are so handy for.
I think this is a case of media hype once more. I don't believe a ban on pocket knives is possible. I have carried one since i was about 8 years old and my Father is the same. I doubt either of us would consider removing them, as neither of us have ever used a knife in anger. Its just too handy a tool to be without.
It is a law impossible to inforce. Imagine prisons full of gardeners, fishermen, pipe smokers and carpet fitters. I can't see the pipe smoking pensioner parting with his beloved penknife and I see no reason why he should. This is just another civil right being removed to pander to the negative news media. :twisted:
Funny, I can't help thinking I might be better off out of this country. Canada appeals, safer than here, and they all have guns, knives ans are allowed to go hunting. :roll:
my 2ps worth
Rich

 

[Tantalus]

sorry tenbears but the guardian has not reported this correctly

i watched the press conference live on the bbc's website this morning and a clear distinction was made between legal sub 3 inch slipjoints, and illegal sub 3 inch lock knives/ fixed blades

Tant

 

[bambodoggy]

IF, and it's a very big IF, this auto 5 year jail term comes in....some of YOU will go to jail....don't think you won't because you see "bushcraft" as legitimate....a mandatory sentence is just that...mandatory! You would also be unwise to rest your freedom on the fact the the copper who pulled you was sympathetic to you carrying whatever you are carrying....I wouldn't want to play russian roulette with 5 years of my life on the dependency of a policeman's mood.
This is not to mention the fact that those members of sociatey who shouldn't carry knives will still carry them anyway....again, look at hand guns.....nobody's allowed them but lots of criminals have them......meanwhile our olympic pistol team has to practice abroad.....madness!

I hate to quote myself.....but hey, we'll ALL be criminals over night!

Luckily (at the moment anyway) even our government isn't that daft....................is it? :yikes:

Where you going to move to then Bill? Can I come? ack:

Tant....I know you're only only reporting as you see and not saying it's right or wrong but if a knife is sticking 3" into your best mate does it really matter if it folds or not? I've never understood the folding issue....

 

[tenbears10]

sorry tenbears but the guardian has not reported this correctly

i watched the press conference live on the bbc's website this morning and a clear distinction was made between legal sub 3 inch slipjoints, and illegal sub 3 inch lock knives/ fixed blades

Tant

That seemed to be too crazy even for the nanny state. Still my ingram and allan blade knives will get me 5 years so maybe I shouldn't worry about the sak just yet.

bambodoggy, parts of the USA sound nice, Canada is great by all accounts, hopefully i'm going to New Zealand for a couple of weeks next year and I think I wont want to come back, hell anywhere is a big step up from this place at the moment. It is not where I want to move to but as long as it is not here. The rest of europe can not believe what is happening in the UK. The price of everything, banning everything that is dangerous/cruel/will win votes*

*delete as appropriate.



Bill

 

[chugnut7]

Should we as a (online) community of citizens be considering campaigning against this should it ever be seriously considered?

Our rights and opinions are as valid as any others. Everyone here has made cogent and sensible points against the premise on which this proposal is based. A petition, engaging those in the bushcraft community with high public profiles, letters to MPs etc. might help us all avoid a criminal record.

 

[bambodoggy]

Trouble is Bill....they all seem really hard to get into! I think by choice I'd be headed to Canada.....but the US would come a close second ):

Actually Canada has some pretty strict firearms laws (brought in in the last 3 to 5 years) but they are what I would call sencible laws....there for a reason and not just as a knee jerk vote winner!

Go for it Chugnut....I'll vote for you! :super: