Need advice on waterproof jackets

[KojakPeg]

Hi Everyone
I'm a new member, and I'm looking for some advice about which waterproof jacket would be best suited to my needs. I live on the North East coast of Scotland, and am looking for a really waterproof breathable jacket that's good for coastal and hill walking.

When I began looking for a new waterproof jacket, I imagined it would be a fairly easy choice (i.e. go to a big high chain buy a Gore-Tex jacket and Bobs your Uncle. And if I was really lucky I'd find a good one going cheap in the sales). However, now that I've looked into it a little more, it's not quite so straightforward. And my short list is getting longer by the day. So I thought I would ask for advice form people who have actually used the kit and have real world experience, about how each Jacket performs. So here's my new short list (some of them are a bit pricier than I'd been hoping, but if they are truly waterproof, breathable and durable then I figure it'll be cheaper in the long run. However it does mean that I've got to get it spot on).

1. Fjall raven anorak no 8 (http://www.fjallraven.co.uk/anorak-no-8)
2. Fjall Raven Hunter Hydratic Jacket (http://www.fjallraven.co.uk/hunter-hydratic-jacket)
3. Country Innovation Rover jacket (http://www.countryinnovation.com/rover-jacket.html#.U0DLwFRdWKk)
4. Snugpak Antartic smock jacket (http://www.snugpak.com/outdoor/antarctic-smock-jacket-1917)
5. Bergans Morgedal Anorak (http://www.raymears.com/Bushcraft_Product/1070-Bergans-Morgedal-Anorak-Dark-Khaki/)
6. Paramo (not sure which one)
7. Ridgeline monsoon II (http://www.uttings.co.uk/p110057-ri...roof-anorak-smock-teak-rlcpamt1/#.U0DMpFRdWKl)
8. Ridgeline roar euro II (http://www.uttings.co.uk/p110060-ridgeline-roar-euro-waterproof-jacket-olive-rlcpjrex/#.U0DOiVRdWKk)

So what do you think? And are they really waterproof and breathable?

Many thanks

Kojak

 

[Oakleaf]

Kojak

Its a hugely individual thing. Its been covered on one or two threads recently - but nothing that immediately leaps out on a search.

There are some hugely qualified people to talk fibre/ clothing technology on here - but not me! ( one out of the two aint bad ) so bow to that expertise. For me, the two key elements are what exactly you want to do and what your body will do ( like it or not ). If I lift my arm to lock the car door then my temperature climbs and I sweat proverbial buckets.

This bring home element 1 - breathable is a relative term. Some breatheable jackets will act near enough to PVC as to make no practical difference. In these I get wetter from sweat than if I just let the rain and fresh air get to me and follow a natural cycle.

Yet if sitting about features large and you are a skinny rake that really feels the cold and sweats rarely then such a jacket could be ideal.

Of the what I call 'sealed' jackets - ie no under arm vents, then for me the hands down champion was a single layer ventile Country Innovation. Don't know if still the case, but the one I had was actually made by Keela. Fantastic jacket that was amazing for something like 5 years - I actually wore away the cuffs. Then mid walk it 'failed' water and wind just whistled through it. No matter what I did thereafter it never went back to what it was. However, for those 5 years it was worth every penny and I more than got my moneys worth. Keep in mind Keela are at Glenrothes - possibly a doable trip out for you? And last I recall, they had a factory outlet shop.

Second in line has been my Jahti Jakt outfit from Artic Outdoor. Their green is a tad dark for stalking ( deer ) for where I am, but pushing 8 years plus on, the jacket has yet to let in water. It is big cut and has vent zips under the arms. For me, these are essentials ( but remember I sweat! ). I now try only to acquire waterproof jackets with ventilation - and of the ones I have, none have yet let water in at that point.

I now have a Helikon ECWCS Parka which is early days, but seems to work really well - its a shell only. But has the daddy of ventilation - running near 'pit to wrist. Only real gripe is most of these systems are designed for matching trousers. So the jackets tend ( personal view ) to be 3-6" too short.

Paramo - a number of clients have these. Big on under arm ventilation and there's a certain honesty about the proofing system - ie douse it in Nikwax to keep the water out. Every owner loves them, but for me ( a deer stalker ) the material is a touch fragile. But thats a niggle.

Ridgeline - popular with loads of clients. Absolutely waterproof. But even the 'low sweaters' say that heat and moisture build up is significant if you work hard in them.

No experience of the others to comment upon.

If I'm specifically Bushcrafting - ie around fire, or want total silence. Then my Swanndri Mosgiel Extreme is the choice. Breathes like a net curtain and fine in a light shower. But gets very heavy in prolonged rain.

In general I can only liken it to boots - by all means take advice on quality and build features etc. But no one can define what will be most comfortable for you. You just have to filter advice - if Tubby McChadd here says a jacket is a bit warm and Racing Snake McSlim says its too cold - you can figure out 'your truth' for that jacket.

I hope that helps - do feed back how you get on.

 

[Limaed]

Why not head across to Hilltrek - they are based in Aboyne. I no personal experience of them but they come recommend as a professional outfit. They also sell both Ventile & Paramo both very weatherproof fabrics depending on what your after: http://www.hilltrek.co.uk/acatalog/Jackets.html

 

[tent peg]

such a lot of money after many years of buying overpriced waterproof jackets that simply did not work (Berghaus, Lowe alpine, rab etc) I have finally settled on british army goretex jackets (think they are actually sympatex), super grade or even new are less than thirty quid. Light weight and technical enough for my hillwalking needs. Vowed that never again will I be fooled by the label

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=321346994838

 

[KojakPeg]

Hi Oakleaf
I know what you mean about breathability, there's no point in having a jacket that's 100% waterproof (not that it's actually possible) if you end up soaking wet through sweat. I have read some of the comments, on here, about the monsoon II and I probably will end up rule it out, but I am sorely tempted. As for Keela, I can't believe I forgot about them, because the Munro was on my list, and it's very reasonably price too. And the other jackets you mentioned have given me lots more to look into, which is great.

As you say, it's a very personal choice, and there's probably a jacket out there for every need. My main problem is that I know longer believe the marketing when it says it's waterproof, because over the years I've bought so many jackets that repute to be waterproof and breathable, but turn out to be nothing of the kind. And I'd hate to take the plunge buy an expensive jacket only then to find it was little better than the rest.

Now to look up those other jackets you mentioned

Many thanks

Hi Limaed
Thanks for the tip. I had come across them on my google searches, but had no idea they were so close. And some of the ventile jackets look good

Many thanks

 

[copper_head]

I've used a Ventile smock for low land walking and messing about in the woods for some years and its great for that purpose. I've had several gore-tex (or equivalent) jackets that have all failed in the end. Im currently saving for a Keela Munro for hill walking, after many recommendations on here.

 

[KojakPeg]

Hi tent peg
I know what you mean, I'm fed up with the usual stuff that promises so much, but deliver so little and like you say, the alternatives are so expensive. So the idea you can get good quality at a cheaper price is music to my ears and I'll definitely have a look

Many thanks

 

[KojakPeg]

Hi Copper head
Thanks for that, the Keela Munro does look good without breaking the bank, but you reckon if I do end up going with ventile that it is waterproof?

 

[Shewie]

If it's for hill walking I'd probably look at more technical fabrics rather than some of the cotton types you've suggested. I have a CI ventile Kestrel smock and the Bergans Morgedal from your list, both great for woodland camping where cotton gives a bit more protection but neither of them breath that well in my experience. Out of the two the ventile breaths much better than the epic cotton of the Bergans, I get really hot in the Bergans in no time, especially with a pack on.

I've heard the Ridgeline jackets are good but very hot also, I think the new ones have pit zips though so that should be a massive improvement.

I have Paramo, the Velez Adventure smock. It's my favourite waterproof for those dry days I'm not a fan but many others are, it's a long running debate.

If you're looking at pure hillwalking then I'd look at Goretex PacLite or eVent, I've found them the most waterproof and breathable combination so far. I've not tried the latest Goretex fabrics but I've heard good reports. Montane and Rab offer seem really nice eVent options, Berghaus for PacLite

 

[Salaud]

I have/had ridgeline clothing and would say 2 things about them.
1, When they say waterproof they mean it. I have sat in a hide in torrential downpour and been dry.
2. They say breathable,but they're not. If you exert yourself even slightly you will get wet from the inside. If you're hill walking I personally would knock them off your list.b-(

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk

 

[Uilleachan]

I'm opposite you on the west coast, I'm using a hilltrek double ventile for almost everything these days, but if it's proper wet from the outset, for bumbling around wet woods stick hunting etc, short hill loch/river fishing trips where I'm not walking for miles and spending time static, I'll use oilskins and wellies. For the winter climbing and walking I'm still using my old goretex, when that dies I'll be replacing it with climbing spec double ventile.

Nip out to Hilltrek and take a look. I've their Rannoch (same as the glencoe but minus the additional water collecting slash pockets) jacket and it's a great all rounder, from their range the "Alligin" in double ventile is the same price but a better design for hill walking, as it has a hem draw cord which is important on the hill, where a fixed hood also has benefits.

A little more up market (read £ $ &#8364 but more or less made to measure are Firemore jackets ( http://www.firemore.com/mountglen.html )

 

[Toddy]

Uilleachan thank you for the link
HWMBLT's Slioch goretex is still going strong, but it's heavy. I've been eyeing up lighter weight ones for him but wanted the made to measure bit that Slioch used to offer.
Firemore ....link appreciated.

M

 

[KojakPeg]

Hi Tent Peg
I know what you mean about the money, but I'm fed up with jackets that say their waterproof when there not. Having said that the more expensive jackets on the list would have to be really exceptional for me to justify spending that much money. So if there are cheaper alternatives that do the job well I'm all ears and will defo have a look at the link

Many thanks

Hi Copper head
Yeah like you I want a waterproof jackets that does what it say on the tin and that will stand the test of time. I'd forgotten to add the Munro jacket to the list, because it does look good and like you say it's a front runner without breaking the bank too

Cheers

Hi Stewie
Thanks for the great advice. You can't beat first hand experience and to be honest I'd never heard of half the jackets, until recently. And reading the marketing hype doesn't give you the real picture. I knew most of them were for hunting and bushcraft, but was hoping if they were good for those they would be good for walking too, but maybe not. And that's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. So my short list is now a lot shorter

Many thanks

Hi Salaud
Thanks for the warning I definitely been crossing the ridgeline off my list.

Cheers

Hi Uilleachen
Thanks for the advice. So you rate the double ventile as a walking jacket? I will go and have a look in hilltrek. I saw them on the web and their Glencoe and Rannoch jackets looked good. And I've climbed shahallion more times than I can remember so it would be fitting lol. As for the fire more, yeah they do look good but you're right about the price

Cheers

p.s. I did write replies earlier that haven't appeared on the post so if they do appear later and this one's a bit of a duplication I do apologies lol

 

[tent peg]

Hi Tent Peg
I know what you mean about the money, but I'm fed up with jackets that say their waterproof when there not. Having said that the more expensive jackets on the list would have to be really exceptional for me to justify spending that much money. So if there are cheaper alternatives that do the job well I'm all ears and will defo have a look at the link

Many thanks

Hi Copper head
Yeah like you I want a waterproof jackets that does what it say on the tin and that will stand the test of time. I'd forgotten to add the Munro jacket to the list, because it does look good and like you say it's a front runner without breaking the bank too

Cheers

Hi Stewie
Thanks for the great advice. You can't beat first hand experience and to be honest I'd never heard of half the jackets, until recently. And reading the marketing hype doesn't give you the real picture. I knew most of them were for hunting and bushcraft, but was hoping if they were good for those they would be good for walking too, but maybe not. And that's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. So my short list is now a lot shorter

Many thanks

Hi Salaud
Thanks for the warning I definitely been crossing the ridgeline off my list.

Cheers

Hi Uilleachen
Thanks for the advice. So you rate the double ventile as a walking jacket? I will go and have a look in hilltrek. I saw them on the web and their Glencoe and Rannoch jackets looked good. And I've climbed shahallion more times than I can remember so it would be fitting lol. As for the fire more, yeah they do look good but you're right about the price

Cheers

p.s. I did write replies earlier that haven't appeared on the post so if they do appear later and this one's a bit of a duplication I do apologies lol

What a lovely post! taking the time to reply to us all! Your very welcome :thumbup:

 

[leon-1]

I don't have any experience of the jackets you mentioned, but I do have some experience of the materials.

I do think that there is no jacket that covers every occasion though. A good few years ago I was up climbing and walking in the Nevis region, we had been issued with The North Face Mountain Jacket and Salopettes, on the first day every one of us got soaked to the skin and not just from rain. That was doing the Aonach Eagach Ridge, I had taken a jacket made by Keela as a backup, from that point I used it. There is a reason that it's the jacket of choice for the Scottish mountain rescue.

Not all goretex is the same and some will "Breath" more freely than others, don't write off other fabrics, my old Keela was made of some funky stuff called Innovation 7 and is probably one the best thought out Jackets with one of the most suited fabrics to the Scottish environment. At the time the Jacket cost me £70, but we were talking early 1990's. The jacket itself is still in use today, but not as much as others (I work around fires a lot).

I also have an old double layer ventile made by West-Winds that I used whilst helping to prove a bushcraft course in Islay. The weather was torrid, there was a lot of walking involved and although I did get wet I was surprised to find that people wearing Gore-Tex were as wet if not more so than I. The day that we walked out the weather started a little grim, but later changed to glorious sunshine, considerable heat and the ventile behaved admirably, but I still perspired like mad until I took the jacket off, but then I perspire quite freely anyway.

Double layer ventile are good jackets, but warm. I believe that you can get them where they are only double layered across the shoulders (I have a hand made jacket like this) and this is a better option if you head down the Ventile route.

At the moment I have a favourite lightweight jacket that goes everywhere with me and that's a Marmot Pre-Cip, it weighs less than 400g, it has pitzips, packs into one of its own pockets and it works. I wouldn't say ideal for serious hill use and climbing, but it's worth having a look into and it won't break the bank. I've used it in the UK and in Italy, it's stood upto everything that's been thrown at it so far and over this last winter that's been considerable.

 

[KojakPeg]

Hi Tent peg
Well, you guys all took the time and effort to answer my post, and give me lots of help and advice. So, I figure the least I can do, is show my appreciation and thank each of you. Not to mention that, it's quite a tough choice, when you've only got the marketing blurb to go one. As well as being a potentially costly mistake if you choose one wrong one. So, the more info the better, and after reading though each of the posts, I've been able to cross most of the jackets off the list, which was exactly what I was hoping to do

reading up on each of the jackets, I was hoping I'd found a replacement for gore-tex that you bushcraft guys had been keeping secret. I'm still interested in finding out more about double ventile and I will definitely be looking into all of the other suggestions, and it looks like I will have refine the old short list, but then that's why I'm researching it now. So that be the time the bad weather returns, which being Scotland will probably be June lol, I'll have made the best choice I can. And with any look I'll see the right jacket in the sale and save a bundle too lol

So Please keep the advice and suggestions coming

Many thanks

 

[KojakPeg]

Hi Woodsman
Yeah, I did the CMD Arete Ridge (mixed the two names up earlier) near Ben Nevis as well as the north gully some years ago and I still tell the war stories lol, because the ridge was pretty nerve racking. It was great fun going up the gully, in the snow and ice though, but I wouldn't do the ridge again in a hurry. When we got the top of Ben Nevis we could see for miles. Ten minutes later there was a total white out and I could barely see my out stretched hand in front of me. I was glad to get back to the B&B that night I can tell you, and even gladder still that we had a tough time of it, because it made it much more memorable. Although, I didn't think that at the time though. I also did the Aonach Eagach Ridge, but that was in much better weather

As for the Keela, the more I hear the more I like the sound of it. The marmot looks good to and isn't a crazy price either. And the double ventile is sounding more and more interesting. Like you say with the weather we get you can end up soaking no matter what so a well made durable jacket is also key.

Is west winds now called snugpak?

Many thanks

 

[Uilleachan]

I do rate double ventile for walking in scotland but i only mentioned it because you have the Country Innovation Rover jacket on your list, so as it's something your considering I thought I'd post.

I would caution that (due to the outlay) it would be best to figure out the type of jacket your after, what I mean by that is functionality and fit, technical, long, short, internal v's external flush v's bellows pockets etc. Once you have the type to suit your requirements nailed down then it's down brand and materials.

For me the ventile jacket covers all my outdoor requirements other than winter climbing (due to functionality and fit, my ventile has external bellows pockets no hem cord and is very much a country rather than climbing jacket) or when the weather is raging and blowing in horizontal sheets of west highland rain at 25mm+ per hour, oilskin weather . I use it in summer, well what passes for it here and find the "double" aspect not to be an issue for over heating, if I work my layers accordingly.

I like a long fit and love my hard to replace long fitting goretex climbing jacket, so to preserve that jacket and keep it just for winter mountaineering, I needed a replacement. I'd had a 2nd hand ventile as a youth that on reflection years later I realized would have filled the void for a general all rounder that I was then in need of filling. The rannoch fitted the bill and continues to serve me well.

@ Toddy
I thought Firemore had closed, but it turns out they simply relocated south. A pal supplied the link as I couldn't find them online, so I'm glad it's of interest to you. When one considers the cost of made to measure services offered by the competition then firemore are quite competitive.

 

[leon-1]

Is west winds now called snugpak?

Many thanks

West-Winds were taken over by Snugpak. They cut a number of jackets from their range, one of which was the short Parka, this is the jacket that I still have and would like to get a replacement for eventually.

 

[rg598]

None of the jackets you listed are actually waterproof. They are all soft shells, which are water resistant, but in no way qualify as waterproof. If you are out only for a short period of time, they will hold out fine, but they are not designed to resist prolonged rain. They will absorb water and eventually get saturated.

On the issue of being waterproof, if you really need a waterproof jacket as you described, you need to get a hardshell jacket (GoreTex, eVent, NeoShell, etc). Those jackets are actually waterproof, and will keep the rain from permeating unlike soft shells.

When it comes to breathability, keep in mind that no jacket will be breathable when it is wet. Neither GoreTex nor Ventile, nor poly-cotton is going to be breathable when it is wet. Breathability only matters when you are using the jacket as a wind blocker when it is not raining.

My advise is that if you are looking for an actual rain jacket, then get an actual rain jacket. Get a hardshell that will be waterproof. Get a light hardshell so that when it is not raining you can put it in you pack or pocket. If on the other hand you are only looking for a water resistant jacket rather than a waterproof one, which will serve more as a wind shirt, there are many softshell jackets on the market. The ones you have selected are very heavy and bulky. I would get something lighter that you can again, put in a pack. At some point you are bound to want to take your jacket off (no matter which one you chose), and being able to put it away is a huge factor. The fact that something is breathable doesn't mean you are not going to overheat in it.