Nature Deficit Disorder & Nature Knowledge Disorder

Macaroon

A bemused & bewildered
Jan 5, 2013
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SE Wales
Stating the obvious.................No, I'll stop here, I feel a rant coming on; time to lay down in a darkened room for a wee while :confused:
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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But, how much nature contact and knowledge did children ever have in London from the 18th century on, or in Glasgow etc? I don't deny the value of being out in"nature".
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
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Thats a very valid point.

And how will the colonists on Mars manage? (Like as not, as opposed to the factory workers, our best and most educated?) I guess they will have to adapt, same as any other animal.
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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But, how much nature contact and knowledge did children ever have in London from the 18th century on, or in Glasgow etc? I don't deny the value of being out in"nature".

Still a great deal of seasonality in life back then. Not so much nowadays when we can have virtually any food at any time of the year….and central heating and electric lighting.
Near sixteen hours of dark just now, and it's easy for us. Not so in the past. We've conquered the dark, we've conquered hunger and cold and 'out of season'. In doing so we've taken huge steps away from the natural world, beyond the restrictions of city living.

When Wordsworth wrote it was quite a novelty to appreciate nature in it's wild grandeur. It was damned hard work for most of the population.
Now it's confined, restricted, unapproachable for many.
To our detriment I think. Wellie boots and cagoules are part of the school uniform for our local primary children. They're out in the woodlands two or three times a week :D

M
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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Even back in Shakespeare's day I wonder how much nature Greasy Joan enjoyed while keeling the pots.
 

oldtimer

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Sep 27, 2005
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This site often makes me realise how much I take for granted in my own knowledge and understanding of nature and how atypical it is. But I had the benefit of living for most of my like on the boundary between town and country. It is easy for me to forget how urbanised modern folk are.

In another life, I had a lot of contact with Primary School children. I often asked them the following questions and got depressing answers such as.

Q: where milk comes from? A: the supermarket.
Q: What animal gives us bacon? A: Varied, but pigs often not given as an answer.
Q: When do we pick apples from the trees? A: any time of year.

Even more depressing was that sometimes the teachers fared little better.

I think the lesson is that we all need to disseminate what we know to the younger generation and help them to have the experience we have had. One of the many things I like about this site is the frequent sharing of accounts of family outings into the countryside. They always lift my spirits knowing that knowledge will not die with my generation.
 

bowji john

Silver Trader
But, how much nature contact and knowledge did children ever have in London from the 18th century on, or in Glasgow etc? I don't deny the value of being out in"nature".

Really good point

You might be surprised that when I was a lad (sorry!) very few African children had ever seen any of the African animals that we in the west think we know

Access to the countryside / bush / wilderness is MUCH rarer than we would like to think

It is becoming rarer

Unfortunately with us humans it appears that the more we seek it - the faster we destroy it

It is a dichotomy we all have to wressle with

One thing I do know (as a very old fart) that patch of land you take for granted today will be gone tomorrow

Protect it !

Love

J
 

Nomad64

Full Member
Nov 21, 2015
1,072
597
UK
But, how much nature contact and knowledge did children ever have in London from the 18th century on, or in Glasgow etc? I don't deny the value of being out in"nature".

Conditions for the urban poor in Victorian times were pretty grim but at least kids would have been outdoors most of the time - out of necessity given the overcrowding in most homes.

Until the 1960s, thousands of working class Londoners (women and kids mostly) used to make an annual September migration to rural Kent and Sussex to pick hops and there have been a few interviews recently with elderly "hoppers" reminiscing fondly about their "holidays" in the country.

http://www.hoppingdowninkent.org.uk/intro2.php

Its worth bearing in mind that cities were also a lot smaller then and the countryside was a lot closer - I'm typing this two miles from Birmingham city centre and have a map showing that this area was all fields in 1904 and have a 100 year old grandmother in law who can remember sheep being driven down what is now a busy dual carriageway near the city centre. 25 years ago I used to live in Wanstead just beyond the east end of London and until the M11 was extended there used to be cows grazing on some common land near Leytonstone - I wished I had a camera with me when I saw one standing forlornly at the entrance of a McD0nalds drive-thru!

That said, I did have the opportunity to read through some of the papers relating to London kids who were evacuated to the village in somerset I grew up in - its fair to say they were on a steep learning curve although the only one who came to serious harm did so as a result of the hand grenade he brought with him from home!

The sad truth is that kids are now much more sedentary than they used to be because of a combination of factors; roads are busier, fields and bomb sites have been built on and computer games and social media are superficially an attractive alternative to playing outside. A few years ago I helped out with a couple of Outward Bound courses my employers were sponsoring for kids from a few of the scruffier schools in Brum. The kids might not have been from rich families but the amount of electronic and hair care stuff they brought with them was astonishing. It took at least a day and a few major tantrums before they got over not having their phones etc. but it was heartening to see how quickly most of them embraced the great outdoors in all its windswept and muddy glory.
 

bowji john

Silver Trader
Conditions for the urban poor in Victorian times were pretty grim but at least kids would have been outdoors most of the time - out of necessity given the overcrowding in most homes.

Until the 1960s, thousands of working class Londoners (women and kids mostly) used to make an annual September migration to rural Kent and Sussex to pick hops and there have been a few interviews recently with elderly "hoppers" reminiscing fondly about their "holidays" in the country.

http://www.hoppingdowninkent.org.uk/intro2.php

Its worth bearing in mind that cities were also a lot smaller then and the countryside was a lot closer - I'm typing this two miles from Birmingham city centre and have a map showing that this area was all fields in 1904 and have a 100 year old grandmother in law who can remember sheep being driven down what is now a busy dual carriageway near the city centre. 25 years ago I used to live in Wanstead just beyond the east end of London and until the M11 was extended there used to be cows grazing on some common land near Leytonstone - I wished I had a camera with me when I saw one standing forlornly at the entrance of a McD0nalds drive-thru!

That said, I did have the opportunity to read through some of the papers relating to London kids who were evacuated to the village in somerset I grew up in - its fair to say they were on a steep learning curve although the only one who came to serious harm did so as a result of the hand grenade he brought with him from home!

The sad truth is that kids are now much more sedentary than they used to be because of a combination of factors; roads are busier, fields and bomb sites have been built on and computer games and social media are superficially an attractive alternative to playing outside. A few years ago I helped out with a couple of Outward Bound courses my employers were sponsoring for kids from a few of the scruffier schools in Brum. The kids might not have been from rich families but the amount of electronic and hair care stuff they brought with them was astonishing. It took at least a day and a few major tantrums before they got over not having their phones etc. but it was heartening to see how quickly most of them embraced the great outdoors in all its windswept and muddy glory.

+1 from me
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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My Father taught children in Bermondsey who went hop-picking. It was common for them to get their hair "done" on return because the delousing station left it ever so soft. The bomb sites were my playground, as well as Brockwell Park in London. Wonder how we survived collapsing walls and hidden holes. The difference is not the absence of nature but the over-wheening presence of parents. They should leave the poor children alone to find their own way outside.
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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S. Lanarkshire
I'm not so sure about that; youth 'culture' is so technology based now that it's hard to unplug many of them, and harder for many of them to unplug themselves.
If you want to programme the tv, the microwave, the phone, etc., etc., find a three year old :rolleyes:

Outside is boring for many of them. The stimulation is totally different, and if there is nothing to kickstart the fitting into nature, the awareness of the seasons, etc., they don't bother.

I've told this story before, but the Granny who didn't know what dockens were, or that they were used to relieve nettle stings, and asked what a nettle was, is not unique. My husband commented, when I told him about it later that day, that she grew up in a city, where weeds were something the dogs pee'd against or the council came and sprayed with weedkiller :sigh:
The Granny didn't know, her children didn't know and she was childminding her grandchildren and they weren't going to know.

Grass they did know; it's what you need wellies on to play football upon.

M
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,389
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Wiltshire
I'm not so sure about that; youth 'culture' is so technology based now that it's hard to unplug many of them, and harder for many of them to unplug themselves.
If you want to programme the tv, the microwave, the phone, etc., etc., find a three year old :rolleyes:

Outside is boring for many of them. The stimulation is totally different, and if there is nothing to kickstart the fitting into nature, the awareness of the seasons, etc., they don't bother.

I've told this story before, but the Granny who didn't know what dockens were, or that they were used to relieve nettle stings, and asked what a nettle was, is not unique. My husband commented, when I told him about it later that day, that she grew up in a city, where weeds were something the dogs pee'd against or the council came and sprayed with weedkiller :sigh:
The Granny didn't know, her children didn't know and she was childminding her grandchildren and they weren't going to know.

Grass they did know; it's what you need wellies on to play football upon.

M
That's a sad sad story, but I'm afraid it's very common.
I count ourselves (my family) very lucky for living where we do ...
plenty of forest , rivers and hills, monoliths, barrows, stone circles and ancient sites .
More than enough subjects to keep my kids interested and excited about the great outdoors and the history of their land.
Having a dog , also helped as we make his walks , epic ones ... To benefit us all!

When you're as skint as we are ,which is most of the time, these sites are a god send , as it doesn't cost any money to get out there , even if it's just for a walk.

I'm not sure about the rest of the UK , but I'm pretty sure you dont have to go very far to get to a "pocket" of nature.
I mean, even London has great parks...
So I'm guessing this is a personal choice , and quite often the adults are just as bad as the kids when it comes to being "plugged in" and glued to their screens...
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
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78
Cornwall
Of course the village children had a wonderful time in times past, up before dawn to stand out in the freezing cold to act a bird scarers then growing up in virtual bondage in their tied cottages and to have their spirits and bodies broken by the insane weights they to carry, two hundredweight sacks, and other heavy tasks until they collapsed and eked out the rest of their lives either being patronised by the Vicar and his family or immured in a Workhouse. The wonder is that so many broke out and trekked to the towns where work was as hard but after work they were free as they were not in a village and accepted the divorce from nature, beyond keeping whippets, bantams and poaching when they could. The creation of the suburbs and their gardens was the true return to nature but on their terms.
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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S. Lanarkshire
Response to Leshy

That is such a good point too. It really doesn't need us to go far to be in the green world.
My two were trailed from one end of the country to the other. It's a beautiful world out there, it's their world, they ought to be part of it :)
I'm lucky, I have both a garden and the woodlands right outside it, but even just children walking to school and seeing the changing seasons is a connection.

Ever watched a baby in a pram (or in a carrier on an adult) under trees ? the baby is incredibly calm and big eyed and contentedly fascinated watching the leaves move. They fall asleep so peacefully there too.

I worked a Summer with a mixed group of able/less physically able children. We built dens, lit fires, cooked lunch, made things from willow, clay, etc.,
We all went home filthy, happy, beautifully tired out :D (adults too!) We lifted one little boy, (he'd never walk or talk, but a happy natured child) out of his wheelchair and laid him with his 'friend' inside one of the willow dens we'd built. The children had threaded through everything from rushes and grasses to dockens and daisies into the rods to create low walls. The inside was shady in the heat, but fresh, green smelling, and quite lovely.
His Mum was in tears later when she thanked us. He'd never had something like that before, never even lain on the grass before. He smiled all that day, slept right through the night, and was awake and obviously determined he was going back the next. Another child walked in callipers so determined that he wouldn't sit in his wheelchair to get to the site. It took him three times as long, and two adults holding his hands the entire time, but he did it. His Mum said he was exhausted, but he loved those few weeks, that it did more for him than all the physiotherapy and specialist tutors in helping him be just a little boy playing outdoors.

We only tried to give the boys, and the others, the same experience we were trying to give all of the children, and we hadn't realised that it was something so very special. All of the children had a great Summer :) and as an adult who had never worked with children with such challenging issues before, I found it both incredibly rewarding and heartening. We learned things and ways of showing and teaching that we would never, ever have thought of.
How do you describe a yellow dye to a blind child ? (we dyed wool and made felt with them too)….the colour is how the Sun feels :)

I think denying ourselves contact with the natural world is unhealthy…..even on days when I ache and the computer's siren call of beep/new mail is echoing :D

M
 
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sunndog

Full Member
May 23, 2014
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derbyshire
Still a great deal of seasonality in life back then. Not so much nowadays when we can have virtually any food at any time of the year….and central heating and electric lighting.
Near sixteen hours of dark just now, and it's easy for us. Not so in the past.

Spot on mary

Its not just 'the great outdoors' people have become detached from. Its the actual world itself

Dark, cold, and even the weather itself are alien to a lot of people. Those who walk straight into their garage from inside their light, warm clean bubble drive in a light, warm, clean bubble to the underground carpark below the bigger light, warm, clean bubble in which they work
For some of these people simply being alone in a field at night with no torch is something to panic about!


Seriously i know people that can go weeks without actually being outside in winter (and they arent even classed as wierdos)

I know if i live in such a disconnected way for even a short time it effects me. Just not being cold, wet, or dirty for any length of time irritates me lol
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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:D

Just in, frozen, mud mostly washed off. Quietly chuffed with the work I've done (and the harvest :D) but chilled and feeling so much better for just being out of doors.

M
 

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