Natural Remedies

[mark a.]

Now that the scourge of homeopathy has been given a patina of credibility by the MRHA allowing changes to homeopathic packaging, it's got me wondering how this applies to bushcraft and similar natural activities.

Bushcrafters enjoy using traditional tools and ideas, and often the use of naturally available materials crops up. I think it's great that there are natural products that do seem to work, but how do we reconcile the fact that natural remedies can often be ineffective and sometimes dangerous too?

Fortunately on here most suggestions for injuries seems to be "don't mess around, go and see a doctor" or relatively harmless ideas such as using sphagnum moss as a nice soft padding. But then you do get the occasional suggestion to munch on various leaves, roots and barks - which is fine if you're stuck for something else, and you know what you're doing, but in general this can be a fairly dangerous!

The oft-quoted example is aspirin being derived from willow bark. This is true, but just chewing willow bark can have some nasty side effects.

I was just wondering how people on here view natural remedies. Do people actually use them, or do they just reach for their FAK or packet of paracetamol? If we can use natural remedies, is there any way of ensuring that we only use safe treatments?

 

[JohnC]

I work giving early phase treatments for cancers and I often have discussions with my patients regarding complimentary medicines.

Theres a lot of talk about the effectiveness, but it is sometimes regarded as what degree of faith or trust do you have in the person delivering the treatment (this holds true to a degree for mainstream medicine). One concern recently has been the mixing of untested (in the sense of a clinical trial) complimentary medicine being used for side effects of chemotherapys and the chemo itself. The concern was: is the comp. med blocking the action of the chemo. In other words, the other way to reduce side effects is not take the chemo.

Many of the people I see have a strong desire for the "natural" therapies to work, as they are percieved as having less or no side effects and to be somehow cleaner and safer. Some recent arguments in the press have pointed out that some complimentary therapies are based on an erroneous view of how the body works.

Like most things I believe the more information you can get to base an informed choice on treatment on, the better. I really believe we're getting better in seeing people in that light and assisting them here where I work.
Given the job I do, I am more in favour of mainstream medicine/drugs, however, I wouldn't sneer at someone who makes an informed choice to use natural remedies, but I would urge them to look at the background or rationale to their use.

 

[Chux]

Homeopathy and using herbs may both be seen as complementary medicines but they are not similar to one another. If anything herbal medicine is much more closely aligned to conventional medicine than to homeopathy; indeed a good proportion of the items in your local pharmacy are either derived from or based on natural products.

 

[janiepopps]

I would argue that natural remedies can often be ineffective and sometimes dangerous too, it is surely only in the hands of an inexperienced or incompetant user that this happens. At no point have I ever seen a plant claim to be a beneficial medicine, or food for that matter!

I find it interesting that for time immemorial humans have 'munched on various leaves, roots and barks' more as a preventative form of medicine than as a cure all. In our current society we all expect to abuse our bodies with chemicals, toxins and pollutants on a daily basis and expect to pop a pill or have surgery when things go wrong. Due to this loss of responsibility to ourselves, our own health and our blind faith in science & modern medicine we have lost vast amounts of knowledge in our natural medicine cabinet.

Please dont think I am anti modern medicine, without it I would be compost, but it does sadden me that we no longer seem able to keep ourselves 'well'. Natural medicine is a gentle often long term answer to maintaining good health, by the time we have a 'symptom' modern medicine is generally the only thing to offer help.

I feel the only safe way of using a medicine, be it natural or created in a lab, is to be aware of contra-indications, possible side effects & to understand the correct dosage.

j

 

[Jodie]

Fascinating question and responses from people and having worked in
pharmacy-related fields it's something I'm very interested in myself.

Personally I wouldn't rely on the munching of leaves etc. as I don't have
sufficient knowledge on how much to take, which bit of the plant to take,
when or how to take it etc - so I'd agree with JohnC on that.

My particular annoyance is for companies (mostly web-based) claiming
that their natural remedies have no side effects because they are
natural. Although I spend a small portion of my day job explaining to people
why natural does not always equal safe I'm assuming that's taken as read here!

There can also be problems with people self-medicating - for example they
might be failing to get the right treatment, or using something which happens
to interact with their prescribed medicine. Grapefruit juice has interactions
with a number of prescription medicines for heart conditions and could cause
problems (http://www.bnf.org - free to register and search).

For a more detailed look at natural products I'd recommend my former
colleagues' book: "Fundamentals of pharmacognosy and phytotherapy" by
Heinrich, Barnes, Gibbons and Williamson. If you're ever in London, the
Chelsea Physic Garden is also worth a look.

Wikipedia - aspirin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin

Chelsea Physic Garden
http://www.chelseaphysicgarden.co.uk/

Amazon - pharmacognosy books
http://tinyurl.com/k9pne

Best wishes,
Jo

 

[Draven]

In my opinion, natural remedies aren't all that different from chemical ones.
I mean, if you let someone completely ignorant to medicines but with a splitting headache run through a pharmacy, they're obviously at risk... same goes for someone that doesn't know enough about natural remedies.
It's the same with a lot of outdoorsy stuff, really. If I went to the arctic to live for a month, I'd probably die. But other people can survive no problem... all to do with knowhow and the magic ingredient, experience!

 

[maddave]

Have a look here... Loads of plants with medicinal uses !!


http://www.pfaf.org/index.html

 

[Culicoidis]

As has already been said the majority of our conventional medicines are derived from or synthetic products of plant or fungal (antibiotics) origin. It means that each tablet you take contains an exact amount of that drug and nothing else. Unless you have the knowledge or experince to know what part of the plant and at what season the active ingredient is most active it can be a hit and miss affair. The majority of herbal remidies that I am familiar with are paliative, treat the symptoms, rather than curative but they have their place. I take camomile and valerian for aiding restful sleep, but it won't send you to sleep for that you need a certain poppy extract. There is definately a place for them, but unless you want to go back to the mortality rates of the 1800s it is along side modern medicine.

I get sales reps trying to get me to sell herbal veterinary products who have no idea what they are talking about, there is almost an anti-modern medicine cult devloping out there. I had one who was most stressful on the fact that his products contained no chemicals what so ever. When I asked him was he sure they contained no chemicals, he assured me there were none in his products. All medicines (except homeopathy) are chemicals.

I should get off my soap box, the following is a useful web site that compares scientific studies of alternative medicines.

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/booths/altmed.html

For minor non life threatening problems out in the field plant remidies can give some relief, just get it checked out by a doctor when you get back.

 

[mark a.]

I work giving early phase treatments for cancers and I often have discussions with my patients regarding complimentary medicines.

Theres a lot of talk about the effectiveness, but it is sometimes regarded as what degree of faith or trust do you have in the person delivering the treatment (this holds true to a degree for mainstream medicine). One concern recently has been the mixing of untested (in the sense of a clinical trial) complimentary medicine being used for side effects of chemotherapys and the chemo itself. The concern was: is the comp. med blocking the action of the chemo. In other words, the other way to reduce side effects is not take the chemo.

Many of the people I see have a strong desire for the "natural" therapies to work, as they are percieved as having less or no side effects and to be somehow cleaner and safer. Some recent arguments in the press have pointed out that some complimentary therapies are based on an erroneous view of how the body works.

Like most things I believe the more information you can get to base an informed choice on treatment on, the better. I really believe we're getting better in seeing people in that light and assisting them here where I work.
Given the job I do, I am more in favour of mainstream medicine/drugs, however, I wouldn't sneer at someone who makes an informed choice to use natural remedies, but I would urge them to look at the background or rationale to their use.

Fantastic - great to hear real stories from the front line. I agree that if we natural medicines can be shown to be safe and effective, then go for it! But only if the risks of getting the doses wrong or interfering with other medicines are minimised, then I for one could not recommend using them.

My particular annoyance is for companies (mostly web-based) claiming that their natural remedies have no side effects because they are natural. Although I spend a small portion of my day job explaining to people why natural does not always equal safe I'm assuming that's taken as read here!

It's definitely worth saying again, though.

In my opinion, natural remedies aren't all that different from chemical ones.
I mean, if you let someone completely ignorant to medicines but with a splitting headache run through a pharmacy, they're obviously at risk... same goes for someone that doesn't know enough about natural remedies.

I disagree. In a pharmacy people can get to read the nice shiny packages that say "treatment for headache". You don't get that on a plant. So even someone completely useless at modern medicine can pick up a pack of paracetamol instead of, say, piles cream. And you can't just pick up 72 packets of the stuff, because there are limits as to how much you can buy, whereas in the wild there's nothing stopping you from eating 72 plants where only 1 will do (or, even worse, only 1 is safe). Modern medicines also have detailed instructions as to how to take it, when you should take it, when you shouldn't take it, known side effects etc etc etc - all there in writing for anyone to read. And to top it all off the drug wouldn't be there in the first place if it hadn't gone through years of rigorous testing. So modern medicines have lots of failsafes for even ignorant people to keep relatively safe.

Have a look here... Loads of plants with medicinal uses !!

But how many of those have been properly tested? I'm asthmatic - can I just grab some Babbington's Leek and some Jerusalem Oak and they'll make me better? Even if I actually knew what to do with them, how do I know that this combination won't kill me? Or interfere with other medicines? Or, indeed, have any trials been done to prove that they actually work?

Don't get me wrong - I'd love it if there were ways of using natural materials to keep us well and make us better. But only if they were safe and effective.

 

[janiepopps]

The nice shiny packets only have nice shiny instructions on them because nice shiny drug companys make lots of nice shiny pennies from selling them!

j

 

[Culicoidis]

The nice shiny packets only have nice shiny instructions on them because nice shiny drug companys make lots of nice shiny pennies from selling them!

j

They have nice shiney labels with nice shiney instructions because the nice shiney lawers will take them for every penny they have if they don't. Also its the law.

 

[ArkAngel]

I know enough about natural remedies to know that i know practically nothing about natural remedies.

I dive head first into my FAK

 

[Draven]

I disagree. In a pharmacy people can get to read the nice shiny packages that say "treatment for headache". You don't get that on a plant. So even someone completely useless at modern medicine can pick up a pack of paracetamol instead of, say, piles cream. And you can't just pick up 72 packets of the stuff, because there are limits as to how much you can buy, whereas in the wild there's nothing stopping you from eating 72 plants where only 1 will do (or, even worse, only 1 is safe). Modern medicines also have detailed instructions as to how to take it, when you should take it, when you shouldn't take it, known side effects etc etc etc - all there in writing for anyone to read. And to top it all off the drug wouldn't be there in the first place if it hadn't gone through years of rigorous testing. So modern medicines have lots of failsafes for even ignorant people to keep relatively safe.

True indeed, mate!

 

[Toddy]

That's an excellent set of responses folks

Y'know if I were involved in homeopathic medecine I'd be worried right now. Legislation is a two edged sword. It can be perceived as a vindication, but how will they deal with the growing requirements for rigorous quality control, properly conducted trials and recording ?

Herbal medicine is a very different thing, and though I use natural materials constantly there are many illnesses, diseases and conditions for which I have no qualms in seeking the potions of the pharmacist.

The earlier comment about not knowing how to keep ourselves well is really a good one I *feel* better when using natures materials, but when my 23 year old youngest son found a lump in his neck, I was *so* relieved that we *had* pharmaceuticals and treatments that actually would destroy the cancer that had spread through his lymphatic system.
The reality of the situation is that without our modern medical intervention, my son would be dead, and I would be grieving now.
Silly, isn't it? He's alive, and I'm sitting here crying tears of relief and thankfulness for it.
I had the most furious argument with a very old friend over my calm acceptance that chemotherapy was going to be a prominent feature of Andrew's treatment. My friend felt I wasn't giving natural therapies a fair chance to see if they could kill the tumours, first. *You can cure cancer yourself!", she shouted at me. And all I could feel was an appalled horror that she meant every word she said.

I can prepare tinctures that will kill pain, anaesthetise skin, ease into gentle sleep, steady a too rapid heart or strengthen a sluggish one, cool a fever and sooth the ache of healing bones. I can make oils, ointments and creams for most skin conditions and inflamations. Make tisanes that ease muscular aches, griping cramps, diarrhoea, indigestion, constipation, panics and hysterias............ but I know of *no* sure fire natural cure for cancer. No natural cure that will stop a major artery bleeding out, no recovery from a bad stroke, no magic cure from third degree burns over a large area, no natural cure for a viral infection........and the list goes on and on.
I also know just how easy it is to get it wrong.

Herbalism is a lifetime's study, and the effects of herbs are well researched and their administration is legally controlled.
Alternative therapists are very skilled and their arts are very, very good at making one feel good; they ease things, they comfort us, but the fallacy that is so often promoted, that there's a natural cure for everything, is just that.

After all of that, well yes, I do use plant based remedies and I do believe quite firmly that they do help.
My friends know that if I'm smelling of meadowsweet then the arthritis is playing h3ll with my joints or of bog myrtle, mugwort and lemon balm, then the midgies are bad Though as one said not so long ago, "So what colour do you get from that, then?"...sometimes I wonder

How do we learn what's safe? Might I suggest that it's best to start with one plant or one plant family; rose, mint; something common enough to be easily found, to be aware of it's growth and seasons, and actually use it.
Basic chemistry and biology are incredibly important in understanding how it all works.
Research all you can find about the plants and, while you are at it, research humans too. Find out how we work, what leaves us vulnerable, participating in a really thorough first aid course can be a good starting point.
No book tells it all, no person knows it all, but it's possible to become very competent.
I don't feel I know enough, I doubt I ever will, even within my own area I keep finding plants I'm not familiar with. This internet is a very great resource, but remember the adage *look for the agenda behind the propaganda* and bear in mind there's an awful lot of mince talked out there too.


It's cold, wet and grey up here tonight and I'm working in a park all day tomorrow , defintiely hot chocolate time.......I suppose, technically, even that could be seen as a herbal medicine

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[janiepopps]

Very well put as always Toddy, and I'm really sory to hear about your lad. I hope he's doing well and that he's making a full & speedy recovery.

Thank god for those tears of relief!!

ATB
jane

 

[Toddy]

Thank you, he's doing very well The treatment is a nightmare that I wouldn't wish on anyone, but it does work.......and I'm just superstitious enough to "touch wood".

Knowing a bit about plants and the like, the whole time he was going through chemotherapy my mind was screaming, "poison" at me. All of the symptoms of poisoning were so clearly there in the reaction his body endured. I suppose really that's what was happening to him to kill the cancerous cells. But, ye gods they've gotten good at killing the cancer and not the person.

Funny bits too though. He had to deposit a sp3rm sample before treatment began, and when the tube came in the post he looked at it and said, "Well that's bit small; it won't fit."
and I thought, as I cleaned up my coffee, there are somethings your mum just *doesn't* need to know!

atb,
Mary

 

[janiepopps]

You touch all the wood you need to girl! Thats not a story any mother should have to go through.

Thoughts are with your whole family.

Oh, and keep the sense of humour

j

 

[JonnyP]

Toddy..........Wishing your boy well mate. My father found a lump in his neck about 4 yrs ago, just before they were moving to america, he had to go through all the kemo and all that, while all their possessions were half way across the atlantic and tennants were moving into their house, so they had to go into digs and borrow stuff. He got the all clear and they moved, but he had to come back every 6 months for a check up. All has gone really well and no signs of the cancer comming back. Hope your boy will read this and take heart, they do amazing work these days with great after sales service too.
re plants and natural remedies......I will dabble with the not serious ailments of life like nettle rubbed on a nettle sting, chamomile for a headache etc etc, but for the more serious stuff, I leave that to the experts...........

 

[Toddy]

Thank you Jon; I hope your Dad lives life to the fullest.
I tell you though, I was glad of our NHS. No one hung around; no one left us wondering and worrying. Rigorous diagnostic tests, treatment plan, appointments and sites all organised within three weeks of finding the first lump.......and all it cost us was our National Insurance. A big thank you from the bottom of my heart to everyone who has paid theirs over the years :You_Rock_

I do use *natural* medicines, but what is relevant to one person isn't to another, or even to the same person, at different stages in their lives. There's an awful lot of stuff I won't use, more I don't know *how* to use, too.
Ah well, it's always interesting finding out and learning a bit more

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[mark a.]

I can prepare tinctures that will kill pain, anaesthetise skin, ease into gentle sleep, steady a too rapid heart or strengthen a sluggish one, cool a fever and sooth the ache of healing bones. I can make oils, ointments and creams for most skin conditions and inflamations. Make tisanes that ease muscular aches, griping cramps, diarrhoea, indigestion, constipation, panics and hysterias............

:notworthy

This is the kind of stuff I like. Not the random list of herbs or potions or sugar pills that magically cure all known ills, but actual remedies that work.

Just wondering (this is a genuine question, as I'm aware that this might come across as cynical or sarcastic) why not just reach for the medicine cabinet? Effectiveness? Cost? Fun? Or because it's natural and, for want of a better word, bushcrafty?

Hope your son recovers well. It's amazing what modern medicine can achieve, but it's also amazing how important a strong and supportive family can be.