Natural-fibre sleep mat?

[PDA1]

If you really must use natural fibres, then make a hammock, with a down filled underquilt with a cotton envelope. It'll probably weigh 5x a ripstop nylon one, so you won;t be doing much hiking with it. The same applies to your waxed/oiled cotton canvas shelter system. If you must go to ground, then a camp bed type of arrangement would be best with the underside of the canvas on whihc you sleep having an underquilt attached, or or have it as a canvas covered box structure into which you stuff straw, leaves etc to make an insulation layer. Whichever you choose, you cannot put weight on the insulating material as you will squash all the air out of it, reducing loft to zero. I can't see the point of it myself. Are you going to use leather bags for heating your water for brews, stews etc.? Will you roast tubers and roots in the embers/ roast meats and make bread on sticks over your fire? or will you use modern, synthetic aluminium or steel containers?waht will you use for water collection/storage? If you are going to be out in cold wet conditions, then make s ure your natural fibre clothing is NOT cotton, but is wool or silk.
p.s. I lived in the Netherlands for a few years, so I can put you in touch with someone who still makes wooden clogs. You can't get hand stitched leather clogs anymore, I know becasue I lived next door to the last clog maker in England, and that was in the early fifties. he;s dead now.

 

[xylaria]

Thank you very much Xylaria, I now feel old... thats what we did when I was in the scouts lol

I have to ask the OP, why the need for natural materials?

It was my mothers book she and her freinds used it when they started camping as teenagers in the 1950s. Campsites were found by politely asking a farmer for a courner of field he is isn't using, and if are really lucky you might get fresh eggs for breakfast. Cut a turf for a fire, keeping a tidy camp and don't camp under trees or near the edges of woodland. Very good advice is timeless, even if bushcraft has a fashion of liking woodland.

 

[treadlightly]

Very interesting stuff and I enjoyed those quotes RG. I've experimented in the past with a sheepskin and a smallish wool fleece mat I found in a craft shop. Both are small enough to carry but don't offer much in the way of padding.
I think the bottom line is if you want comfort and light weight you have to use modern technology. Authentic is possible but relatively uncomfortable if you're carrying it. Of course brash, hay or straw (very comfy) are a goo solution as long as they are available, but that is not always the case.

 

[rg598]

I took the OP to be a theoretical exercise. He didn't make any claims about that being the best way to go, or even a good one. That being the case, I'm happy to play along. I think it's fun to think about these things.

With respect to ground insulation, I'm not sure how well reed mats work at trapping heat. To insulate, you not only have to be lifted above the ground, but the air underneath has to be prevented from moving. I don't know how well such mats would do that. I suppose it wouldn't be too bad for warm weather.

As far as relying on collecting of natural insulation while out, there is another thread going right now about the difficulty of getting access to private land that might be relevant here.

I think we often fall into the trap of trying to imitate woodsmen from the past by creating gear that is identical to our modern gear, just maybe from traditional materials. The truth is that doing that does not recreate the kit of woodsmen from the past; it just makes for a retro looking modern kit. Woodsmen from those days had a very different relationship with nature and very different expectations. I don't think anyone went out in the 41800a expecting to sleep comfortably with the insulation they carried in their pack. It was expected that camps would be built and a fire would be kept burning all night for warmth.

The question about the rest of the kit is also an intetesting one. Should steel be considered a natural material? Would moccasins be worn instead of boots? Would leather bottles be used for water storage?

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[rg598]

*1800s

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[ged]

have to say in all my years of messing around in the woods I've never had a tick.

In all my years (over half a century in fact) of the same, and despite often making a bed from a huge heap of bracken with a tarp over it, I've had exactly one -- and that was just going for a bimble in the Black Forest with a girlfriend while I was over in Germany.

I think some people are attractive to mosquitoes (that would be me) and some to ticks (that wouldn't). Bad luck if you're attractive to both!

 

[Tagaeri]

Some interesting replies!

As to why I'm interested in a natural-fibre sleeping mat... Well, it's not to be historically accurate, 'authentic' or harken back to the good old bad old days or anything as nostalgic as that. It's a practical issue in reality. When it comes to clothing, I can't stand synthetic fibres - they make me sweat, are noisy, tear easily, melt easily, etc., etc. Of course, these are also properties that I'd like to avoid in my sleep system! So it got me thinking: if I prefer wool and other natural fibres in my clothing, why not for sleeping in? Everything was going fine putting together a natural-fibre system until I got to the roll mat, and just got stuck! Weeks of research and I didn't really come up with anything that would provide insulation and comfort at a reasonable cost. Of course, I could just give up and accept that I'd have to go for a closed foam roll mat or similar, but now it's become an obsession! So I thought I'd ask here...

The silk liner, wool sleeping bag and waxed cotton bivi I've got so far aren't too bulky or heavy at all, and I bet I'll get a better night's sleep in them than with synthetic alternatives. They're also last me a lot longer (the sleeping bag was made 70 years ago and is still going strong!). Unfortunately, none of this can be said for any of the sleep mat options I've come across so far. A couple of rubber yoga mats comes fairly close, but they're expensive. So, it looks like a thick wool blanket folded in three, plus whatever I can find to stuff a waterproof (waxed cotton) sack with, will have to do. Unless anyone else has any bright ideas... Or maybe I'll just dig out my old roll mat

So, no, I'm not going to use a leather bag or wooden clogs (just as I'm quite happy using a nylon tarp, stainless steel water bottle, etc.). Although for a bet I might

 

[Dave]

Hmmm, good point! I've been thinking on this for weeks now and not come up with the perfect solution. It seems the best option is to take an extra blanket and improvise with what's available in the woods...

Americans call them 'Browse Beds/Bags'

Dave Canterbury did a good vid on how to make one:

<br>[video=youtube;-yqzaqAPGZM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yqzaqAPGZM[/video]

 

[Tagaeri]

Browse bags. Great, thanks! Just thinking of my woods, and I'm going to struggle to find 4" of compressed insulation though (it's very wet), but it'll probably work better on other sites.

 

[Tagaeri]

Beyond the purely practical reasons I mentioned above, there's another reason natural fibres appeal to me more than synthetics. One of the reasons I wild camp is to try and get closer to nature, but I feel manmade objects separate us from the natural world that we are trying to experience in bushcraft - they are disharmonious - while natural objects somehow bring us closer, as they are from that world - they are harmonious. Great, now I sounds like a hippy

 

[peaks]

Are these of any interest? They are much better than a down or synthetic duvet in my experience. Thinking of a single duvet or mattress topper ????

http://www.baavet.co.uk/shop/

 

[The_Taffinch]

Hi,

Just reading this and three bonkers ideas occur to me. Personally, I reckon I only need a half-length mat to support my upper half and hips....

1. Natural sponge is a natural material that might be better under compression than fibre materials. Could a number of sponges be glued/stuffed together inside a cotton bag to form a pad.

2. Cork panels could be stitched on the inside of a pillow case or cotton bag to form a springy but cushioning barrier against bracken or boughs stuffed in the pillow case. This could fold away quite neatly and would fairly lightweight.

3. Could two large hides be stitched and sealed together sufficiently well to be inflated as a natural air mattress? Or stuffed with bracken/boughs?

What do you reckon?

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[Harvestman]

Hi,

Just reading this and three bonkers ideas occur to me. Personally, I reckon I only need a half-length mat to support my upper half and hips....

1. Natural sponge is a natural material that might be better under compression than fibre materials. Could a number of sponges be glued/stuffed together inside a cotton bag to form a pad.

2. Cork panels could be stitched on the inside of a pillow case or cotton bag to form a springy but cushioning barrier against bracken or boughs stuffed in the pillow case. This could fold away quite neatly and would fairly lightweight.

3. Could two large hides be stitched and sealed together sufficiently well to be inflated as a natural air mattress? Or stuffed with bracken/boughs?

What do you reckon?

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That cork idea is mad enough that it might just work, although I don't now how durable a sheet of cork would be. Great thinking though.

 

[Blaidd]

Are these of any interest? They are much better than a down or synthetic duvet in my experience. Thinking of a single duvet or mattress topper ????

http://www.baavet.co.uk/shop/

Reminds me that you can buy silk duvets, thin so no real padding but great on warmth even when compressed. But I like the Baavet, I might look at one myself!

 

[rg598]

Some interesting replies!

As to why I'm interested in a natural-fibre sleeping mat... Well, it's not to be historically accurate, 'authentic' or harken back to the good old bad old days or anything as nostalgic as that. It's a practical issue in reality. When it comes to clothing, I can't stand synthetic fibres - they make me sweat, are noisy, tear easily, melt easily, etc., etc. Of course, these are also properties that I'd like to avoid in my sleep system! So it got me thinking: if I prefer wool and other natural fibres in my clothing, why not for sleeping in? Everything was going fine putting together a natural-fibre system until I got to the roll mat, and just got stuck! Weeks of research and I didn't really come up with anything that would provide insulation and comfort at a reasonable cost. Of course, I could just give up and accept that I'd have to go for a closed foam roll mat or similar, but now it's become an obsession! So I thought I'd ask here...

The silk liner, wool sleeping bag and waxed cotton bivi I've got so far aren't too bulky or heavy at all, and I bet I'll get a better night's sleep in them than with synthetic alternatives. They're also last me a lot longer (the sleeping bag was made 70 years ago and is still going strong!). Unfortunately, none of this can be said for any of the sleep mat options I've come across so far. A couple of rubber yoga mats comes fairly close, but they're expensive. So, it looks like a thick wool blanket folded in three, plus whatever I can find to stuff a waterproof (waxed cotton) sack with, will have to do. Unless anyone else has any bright ideas... Or maybe I'll just dig out my old roll mat

So, no, I'm not going to use a leather bag or wooden clogs (just as I'm quite happy using a nylon tarp, stainless steel water bottle, etc.). Although for a bet I might

If you are trying to get a practical sleep system that is backpack portable, ditch all this stuff and get yourself some proper modern gear. The difference in performance is astronomical. I thought you were just doing it for kicks, so we were all having fun thinking about it; but if you are actually trying to make an efficient sleep system for backpacking purposes, forget about all this. If you are car camping, then fine, but if you will carry all this on your back over any distance, then there are much, much better ways to go.

It looks like your sleep system is designed for down to about 0C temperatures. For such conditions you can get a sleeping bag, mat, and bivi that together weight 3 lb total. Now get a scale and measure how much your gear weighs so far. There is a reason no one backpacks with this type of stuff.

You also make some interesting generalizations about "synthetic" gear, which can not be true by virtue of their generality. There is absolutely no reason why a modern sleep system should not be durable and comfortable. As far as the "being one with nature" stuff, that's fine, but doesn't translate into efficiency. You will have to chose if theory is more important than practicality. It's a bit interesting that a synthetic tarp, steel bottle and a steel knife do not cause disharmony with nature while the shell material on a sleeping bag does.

 

[Tagaeri]

If you are trying to get a practical sleep system that is backpack portable, ditch all this stuff and get yourself some proper modern gear. The difference in performance is astronomical. I thought you were just doing it for kicks, so we were all having fun thinking about it; but if you are actually trying to make an efficient sleep system for backpacking purposes, forget about all this. If you are car camping, then fine, but if you will carry all this on your back over any distance, then there are much, much better ways to go.

It looks like your sleep system is designed for down to about 0C temperatures. For such conditions you can get a sleeping bag, mat, and bivi that together weight 3 lb total. Now get a scale and measure how much your gear weighs so far. There is a reason no one backpacks with this type of stuff.

You also make some interesting generalizations about "synthetic" gear, which can not be true by virtue of their generality. There is absolutely no reason why a modern sleep system should not be durable and comfortable. As far as the "being one with nature" stuff, that's fine, but doesn't translate into efficiency. You will have to chose if theory is more important than practicality. It's a bit interesting that a synthetic tarp, steel bottle and a steel knife do not cause disharmony with nature while the shell material on a sleeping bag does.

That's because I'm not being fundamental about this! It's always a balance and a compromise when we chose kit: something can rarely be fully breathable and fully waterproof, tough and light, etc. I chose to have natural fibres next to me (clothing, sleeping kit) because they work better for me and the benefits I gain outweight the weight issues most of the time. They also work at the 'being one with nature level' (which is a secondary, though important, factor for me). If I was going to be hiking days on end, then I would adapt my kit accordingly, as weight would be a more important consideration. As it is, for a couple of days in the woods, without too many miles to walk, then other factors take precedence. I already have a lightweight sleeping kit for long hikes, and a hammock set up for the jungle, but this natural-fibre sleeping kit is something new and I'm stumped on the roll mat element.

 

[Tagaeri]

It's all about the right material in the right circumstances. I wear a waxed jacket when working on the smallholding, in the woods or hunting, because my synthetic jacket would likely get ripped. A synthetic jacket tough enough to survive in those situations would likely be not very breathable, and I run hot. However, I wouldn't take a waxed jacket hiking, mountain biking, etc. because it would be heavy and no where near breathable enough. Horses for courses.

 

[Tagaeri]

Thanks for the ideas peaks, The_Taffinch and Blaidd!

 

[Tagaeri]

Missed out two vital elements of the set up temperature wise: a small mohair blanket for when it gets a bit chillier, and, of course, I'll wear my merino baselayer top and bottoms, and a wool shirt or jumper if colder (no point carrying a heavy sleeping bag then packing all your warm clothes in your rucksack for the night - take a ligher bag and sleep in your warm clothes!).

 

[mrcharly]

Having read the OPs expansion on reasons for a 'natural' sleeping mat, I think they'd be best served by using a basic Karrimat. Superb insulation, very light, durable (and don't fall apart when they get damaged a bit). Quieter than inflating mats.