Making a file knife...

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
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I quite fancy having a go at making a knife later in the year, as Ive got a load of old files.
And all the basic equipment Id need, cheap bench grinder/sander, polisher etc.

This one is 39cm long, and 35mm width. Weighs 600grams, is 8mm thick at the base, tapering to 4mm at the tip. Its probably 50-60 years old. [Grandads old tools]

How realistic is it to be able to turn something like this:



Into a big camp knife, looking something like THIS

If properly annealed is the steel likely to be ok? How can you know that?
 
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dazcon

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Jan 8, 2010
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clydebank
Depends on your ability really. I think I'd rather use a piece of steel of known quality though. I don't know much about annealing and hardening files. As far as I'm led to believe some are forged and some are case-hardened. I wouldn't want to waste my time and energy on a piece of steel that won't hold an edge.
 

Dave Budd

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you are actually quite unlikely to find a case hardened file to be honest, but it is worth checking ;) Before you start doing anything to the file, clamp it in a vice with an inch (not the tang) sticking out and **** it with a hammer. If it snaps then all is good, but if it bends over then scrap it. You are also advised to do a dummy heat treating run with the file to check whether it will need to be quenched in oil or water, how hot to harden from, how hot to temper, etc. And that will have to be done for every file since they may not all b the same steel.
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
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you are actually quite unlikely to find a case hardened file to be honest, but it is worth checking ;) Before you start doing anything to the file, clamp it in a vice with an inch (not the tang) sticking out and **** it with a hammer. If it snaps then all is good, but if it bends over then scrap it. You are also advised to do a dummy heat treating run with the file to check whether it will need to be quenched in oil or water, how hot to harden from, how hot to temper, etc. And that will have to be done for every file since they may not all b the same steel.

Ah, cheers Dave. I'll put it in a vice, and try smacking it with a big hammer first then, :)
Who'd have known knife making could be that much fun.

I shall report back!
 

VaughnT

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Oct 23, 2013
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Making a knife from a file is rather easy. Or, it's no harder than making a knife from a known alloy of quality carbon steel like 1084 or 1095.

The pattern you are wanting to make is certainly a rather easy one, relatively, but I would wonder if the file is wide enough for the length you want. Hard to tell from the photos, but grinding away the teeth will lose you bit, and every little bit counts.

Hardening and tempering the file will be a crap shoot because you don't know what the alloy is. It might be air-hardening or want a water quench. Because it was mass produced, it could honestly be anything, including case-hardened.

My suggesting, having forged quite a bit of iron and made several knives..... would be to start with a known alloy so you can get exactly what knife you want.

For example, a lot of people suggest making knives out of lawnmower blades because they're "free". I, otoh, find that they are rather expensive because they seriously limit the design you can do. Some blades just don't look "right" when they are only .130" thick at the spine. Or, you have to reconfigure things so you don't have that ugly bolt hole right in the way of everything. Or, you go through all that work only to find out that you can't harden the metal. Heck, not too long ago I thought to use a few lawnmower blades for flint strikers. Since I had them in the scrap pile and happen to be something of an experienced blacksmith, I figured they'd at least have enough carbon in them to make a decent flint striker. Imagine my surprise when a test piece showed that even a water quench wasn't fast enough to harden them to the point they'd throw a spark. Is there any carbon at all in them, or did the manufacturer decide to rely on the speed of the blades to cut the grass?

Regardless, the metal was the perfect thickness for backer plates for handles and such. No great loss, but a great example of just how un-good free metal can be for a certain application.

Feel free to drop me a line if I can help you on the bladesmithing path.
 

Dave Budd

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and that is why I only recycle old steel for my own purposes and not for sale :D If I have to remake something in a couple of months because it has worn out then so be it, but I wouldn't sell anything made of suspect steel.

It is good for learning with though if you have a reliable supply. For example, I only buy the same brand of files for use in the workshop so I went through the HT investigations with them some years ago and I can happily use those for knives/tools (I do check the HT sequences once ina while just in case the manufacturer has changed alloy).
 

pieinthesky

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Jun 29, 2014
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An alternative way to test a file (without snapping the end off) is to cut off the tang (with a hacksaw or cutting disc if it is too hard) and try hardening it.

I find it easier to temper the file to 59/60Rc suitable for a knife and then grind it hard though you will struggle to do it this way if you dont have a decent belt grinder.
 

Dave

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Sep 17, 2003
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Dave
Only one way to find out - give it ago
You'll learn loads and be able to hit things with hammers !!!!

Then take some piccies and show us

Gary

Hahah. Yeh, thats what I thought too.

and that is why I only recycle old steel for my own purposes and not for sale :D If I have to remake something in a couple of months because it has worn out then so be it, but I wouldn't sell anything made of suspect steel.


Well smithies, I did as directed, put the file in the vice, with an inch sticking out, in a towel, and gave it a whack with a ballpin hammer, and it sheared straight off.
It didnt give much resistance, came straight off, and its a very uniform grey colour inside, I dont know what that means though?
Good/bad/nothing? [Is it cast iron?] Id say it was very brittle it almost shattered.


Heres the photos:






So whats next then? Bin it, keep it? anneal it, heat it up? Stick it in the oven?
 
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Dave

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Sep 17, 2003
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Im dying to know your opinion on whether this is any good or not now. :)
 
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Dave Budd

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it's a goodun :) the fine grains structure, colour, uniformity and the fact that it snapped cleanly are all good signs of a hard good quality piece of high carbon steel

So now you need to make your knife :)

You could either grind it very carefully (ie not heating it to anything about a couple of hundred degrees) as it is and then re temper to reduce the hardness (and brittleness). Or anneal it, grind and the re harden before tempering. Or forge it to shape, grind, normalise/anneal, harden and temper. Most likley you'll need to temper at about 250c, but start at 200 and see if it is chippy when sharpened, if it is raise the temp a bit and if not leave it there :)
 
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Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
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it's a goodun :) the fine grains structure, colour, uniformity and the fact that it snapped cleanly are all good signs of a hard good quality piece of high carbon steel

So now you need to make your knife :)

You could either grind it very carefully (ie not heating it to anything about a couple of hundred degrees) as it is and then re temper to reduce the hardness (and brittleness). Or anneal it, grind and the re harden before tempering. Or forge it to shape, grind, normalise/anneal, harden and temper. Most likley you'll need to temper at about 250c, but start at 200 and see if it is chippy when sharpened, if it is raise the temp a bit and if not leave it there :)

Haha Great! Thanks Dave. I'll look into what the rest of that means. Cheers. :)
 

feralpig

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Aug 6, 2013
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Heck, not too long ago I thought to use a few lawnmower blades for flint strikers. Since I had them in the scrap pile and happen to be something of an experienced blacksmith, I figured they'd at least have enough carbon in them to make a decent flint striker. Imagine my surprise when a test piece showed that even a water quench wasn't fast enough to harden them to the point they'd throw a spark. Is there any carbon at all in them, or did the manufacturer decide to rely on the speed of the blades to cut the grass?

.

I mow grass for a living, so am quite interested in this. I also like to make a blade or two.
I'm lead to believe that mower blades are made out of a very flexible type of steel, that will bend, rather than shatter, so suspect that the carbon content is indeed very low.
The speed they go around at, they have to be able to come to a dead stop, without snapping, and they do.
They will take a keen edge, but it doesn't stay keen for all that long. Probably sharpen the blade two or three times a season.
I'd like to know a lot more about what they are made of, but I don't.
 

Dave Budd

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a lot of cheap lawnmower blades are not worth messing with, but if you are using the more industrial variety they may well be ok :) I have used big blades from a mountfield sit on and some flymos to good effect. Again the key is to test a piece by hardening it to see if it will work or not. Same goes for brushcutter blades, flails hedge cutter and chipper blades

As it happens I have a friend who sources me steel from where he works. They make lawnmower blades and it is very good stuff, it's EN11 and the offcuts are 3 feet long, 4" wide and 1/4" thick. Goodness knows what sort of mower uses that size blade!
 

dazcon

Nomad
Jan 8, 2010
443
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clydebank
Dave, is this your first foray into making a knife? If so then it's not really the time to start experimenting with unknown steels in my humble view. If you are lost in the normalising,annealing, tempering and temperature info then keep it as simple as possible. No disrespect to anyone, but I have read very similar threads many times over the years and they have always painted a bit of a lucky-dip picture to me. You may end up with a great useable knife at a bargain price, but you may end up with a pretty ornament that is only good for spreading butter. Take away the worry and buy a piece of decent steel. It aint a gold bar you're buying. It's the price of a few pints. Leave the experimenting till further down the line, because I can almost guarantee that if you are happy with your finished knife then you will make more.
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
11
Brigantia
Dave, is this your first foray into making a knife? If so then it's not really the time to start experimenting with unknown steels in my humble view. If you are lost in the normalising,annealing, tempering and temperature info then keep it as simple as possible. No disrespect to anyone, but I have read very similar threads many times over the years and they have always painted a bit of a lucky-dip picture to me. You may end up with a great useable knife at a bargain price, but you may end up with a pretty ornament that is only good for spreading butter. Take away the worry and buy a piece of decent steel. It aint a gold bar you're buying. It's the price of a few pints. Leave the experimenting till further down the line, because I can almost guarantee that if you are happy with your finished knife then you will make more.


Thanks for the advice.:) Not sure what Im gonna do yet. I know its not gonna be for a while though.
 

VaughnT

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Oct 23, 2013
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Lost in South Carolina
I mow grass for a living, so am quite interested in this. I also like to make a blade or two.
I'm lead to believe that mower blades are made out of a very flexible type of steel, that will bend, rather than shatter, so suspect that the carbon content is indeed very low.

Feral, a chunk of known alloy steel costs $20 shipped to my door and it will have enough metal to make at least two good blades. And because I know the alloy, I know how to heat treat it properly to maximize the blade's potential.

People that use lawnmower blades are simply guessing and hoping. Sure, the blade might come out right, but you're banking on hope. In my opinion, it's just not worth it to save a few pennies on the metal you start with. By ordering a good alloy from a supplier, I can get the right length, width and thickness to start with. This saves me time and money, and makes sure that I don't have to change my blade design to fit the parameters fixed in place by the lawnmower blade.

There is no law dictating what lawnmower blades are made of, and there's certainly no regulatory agency policing the industry to make sure they use XXX alloy. They could be using 5160 for decades and switch all of a sudden to EN11 or A36. Because they're a large operation, they might decide to go with an air-hardening alloy to streamline the manufacturing process. Or they may decide to use mild steel for the body and weld on a tougher edge material. Basically, you can bank on them using the cheapest possible alloy to meet their individual standards.... and it could change at any minute.

Remember, there is a reason why you don't see master bladesmiths buying up all the lawnmower blades at the hardware store.

The cross-section photos of the file above indicate that the steel is at least a medium-carbon and will respond well to becoming a knife. But how did the maker heat treat the file? Does it air-harden? Maybe it requires salt-water quench. What temp range do you temper it at?

I've made a lot of knives from mystery metal. The one thing they all have in common is that they required more work than if I had started from a piece of bar stock that was already the right size. I'll never forget the time I hand sanded through a leaf spring just to find a hidden crack that ruined the knife I was trying to make. Starting out with a .25" thick rust covered spring and sanding it down to a hair over .125" took a lot of my time and sand paper, but the metal was "free" right?

Personally, for a strictly learning experience, I would recommend starting with a chunk of wood or plastic and making a knife-like object. You get to learn all about grinding and filing, and you end up with a great letter opener. All told, you're in it for just a few pennies and it's a lot faster than working metal. I knew one guy that used the plastic sheet from a clipboard to practice making blades, and then he kept the ones he liked for use a templates to mark the outline on steel. It's a good way to learn what does and doesn't work - and not go broke doing it.

Just my thoughts after banging around in the smithy. I hope you find some value in them.
 

feralpig

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Aug 6, 2013
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Mid Wales
Feral, a chunk of known alloy steel costs $20 shipped to my door and it will have enough metal to make at least two good blades. And because I know the alloy, I know how to heat treat it properly to maximize the blade's potential..................

.............Just my thoughts after banging around in the smithy. I hope you find some value in them.

For sure, I can see where your coming from. It can be a bit daunting to do all the work and end up with nothing.
I guess it depends which way you look at it. For me, I've made a few that I've scrapped, and a few that I've kept, and use. By using leaf springs, and old hand saws, I've made mistakes in cutting and grinding, and learned from it. It's a bit gutting to have to chuck it away coz I've cocked it up, but when I do come to make a really good blade, I've got a better idea of how to go about it.
I've got a yard littered with time consuming disasters, that will be put right one day...........:p
 

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