Les Stroud's Temagami
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As always on here - some people always jump in and are critical of "endorsed" products!! The knife in question, I feel, is very well priced considering it's the first edition and limited to 500!!! A bargain.
Please, lets not forget if it wasn't for the likes of Ray, Bear, Les and others a lot of us wouldn't be involved in our hobby to the extent that we are!!! and indeed the amount of products out there would be severely limited!!
Please, lets not forget if it wasn't for the likes of Ray, Bear, Les and others a lot of us wouldn't be involved in our hobby to the extent that we are!!! and indeed the amount of products out there would be severely limited!!
Just received an email stating the knives I ordered are on their way
I'm trying to resist the temptation to take a sneaky peaky at the delivery progress via the supplied tracking number...
I'm trying to resist the temptation to take a sneaky peaky at the delivery progress via the supplied tracking number...
Ray Mears Knife- £ 350-00
Les Stroud knife- $ 179-00
Grylls Knife- £59-99
Tom Brown Tracker knife- $ 299-00
Cody Lundin Mora £ 10-00
Other than Lundin all the others come with the name.
Les Stroud knife- $ 179-00
Grylls Knife- £59-99
Tom Brown Tracker knife- $ 299-00
Cody Lundin Mora £ 10-00
Other than Lundin all the others come with the name.
I suppose that's the price of celebrity - along with the costs of research and development, testing, materials (if they're not the manufacturer's usual ones...), calculating the damage to your reputation when one of them fails catastrophically, agent's fees, lawyer's fees and a few bob for the horror of having to make large numbers of the knives because of the celeb.'s endorsement (I don't envy poor Alan Wood...).
What's interesting is the different values attached to those names. Les Stroud seems almost quite good value compared with one or two of the others listed.
i doubt many people here dont get out from time to time, but as i would imagine, many of the guys here who invest a large ammount of money and put alot of thought into their kit are doing so for a practical reason, not always to look cool. i have to admit i used to gawp at driving my new custom knives through tree's and logs, now i make my own im alot more comfortable with heavy use. its hard to come to grips with the fact that your new £400 damasteel woodlore is just a peice od hardend steel in between two peices of hardwood, when you start seeing the tool for what it is, then its alot easier to use it "properly". on the first 3 weeks of living in the woods in my own shelter the knife i carried was a mora 2010, because i was worried about other knives getting damaged
In fairness I think the above quoted values are misleading in a number of ways:
Until very recently the Grylls knife (somewhat ironically) would have been the most (or second most) expensive on the list, assuming it was one of the Rob Bayley knives. The latest crop of Gerber/Grylls offerings have left most people scratching their heads wondering what the heck the point is (no pun intended) since the new range are neither fish nor foul and don't appear to do anything well (just my opinion of course).
The Woodlore represents extremely good value for money if you buy from point of origin since you stand to make an immediate profit (if you have a mind to) and you certainly won't incur a financial loss even if you use it, so in fairness I think it represents a very sound buy overall.
Would I have one ?
No, not as a user - they aren't my cup of favourite beverage as a using knife.
I would buy one from Woodlore though, given the chance, purely for the more or less immediate return or long-term investment opportunity.
The "just a peice of hardend steel in between two peices of hardwood" argument is also a gross oversimplification.
Anyone who has ground out knives from Damasteel needs a serious set of spuds and steady hands - we're talking serious money per inch in its raw form and you really don't want to mess too many of them up...
Such an argument relies on all knives playing on a level field and that in itself never works out.
Example:
1. Buy in a commercially produced blade and handle it up yourself. Nice knife, and a good end result for nominal outlay.
2. Commission a hand forged San Mai Tanto with real rayskin and bindings on the handle, a hand made habaki and deep laquer finish on the woodwork.
3. Buy a ground-from-O1 clone of a curently popular outdoors knife and have it finished out in the handle material and leatherwork of your choice. Heat treating might be anything from bleeding edge (again, no pun intended) to barely adequate.
Any one of the above could skin a rabit, and none of the above are ideal (IMHO) outdoors knives.
You could add the majority of 'proper' custom knives, semi-customs, hobby-made-from-components and factory stuff in there too if you had a mind.
The point is that everything is very different, and even changing the materials can take something most people take as commonplace and transform it into the extraordinary.
Value is always contentious - if you haven't the disposable income then your choices are dictated by circumstance.
Having been a full-time maker in the past and also having a full appreciation of how knives are made from start to finish in a sole-authorship effort, I get a little tired of endless arguments trying to justify the asking price.
I make (mostly) convex ground knives from A2, O1, 12C27, 15CM and S30V. Most of the carbon steel knives are forged to shape and the bevels forged in as well, with final bevelling done at the grinder. I would take exception to direct comparison with the majority of other makers because I do it a little differtently - that little difference can make a massive difference to the end product, though only the client can decide whether the asking price is worth it. Since I don't get any returns and since I have a full order book I must be doing something right...
Low volume hobby makers generally haven't invested thousands into their workshop, tooling, heat treating setup, and then spent the time to learn how to get the most from those resources, so the entire argument about justifying cost is flawed if you take the grossly oversimplified stance that your typical knife is £5 worth of steel, some leather, wood and little else.
I have charged thousands for past projects, but the complexity and materials justified the cost to the clients. Others can regularly charge that sort of money simply by adding their moniker, and good luck to them.
Right ?
Wrong ?
Who cares ?
We all reserve the right to vote any way we choose, more often than not at least partly assisted/governed by our level of disposable income at the time the decision is made.
Not all knives are created equal though - the best materials can easily be loused up by sloppy work or less-than-optimal heat treating and, on balance, there are more (supposedly 'hand-made') knives out there constructed using these methods than those that manage to combine good workmanship and optimal heat treating into a high-performance knife.
Compared to the majority of endorsed knives out there the Les Stroud offering manages to combine some interesting and very usable design features, a high quality and very capable blade, with an extremely competitive asking price.
Buy one if you like, or not as the case may be.
Is a Mora as good ?
I don't think that it is, but in the right hands any knife can be used to do good work and it has the obvious cost-effective benefit.
Until very recently the Grylls knife (somewhat ironically) would have been the most (or second most) expensive on the list, assuming it was one of the Rob Bayley knives. The latest crop of Gerber/Grylls offerings have left most people scratching their heads wondering what the heck the point is (no pun intended) since the new range are neither fish nor foul and don't appear to do anything well (just my opinion of course).
The Woodlore represents extremely good value for money if you buy from point of origin since you stand to make an immediate profit (if you have a mind to) and you certainly won't incur a financial loss even if you use it, so in fairness I think it represents a very sound buy overall.
Would I have one ?
No, not as a user - they aren't my cup of favourite beverage as a using knife.
I would buy one from Woodlore though, given the chance, purely for the more or less immediate return or long-term investment opportunity.
The "just a peice of hardend steel in between two peices of hardwood" argument is also a gross oversimplification.
Anyone who has ground out knives from Damasteel needs a serious set of spuds and steady hands - we're talking serious money per inch in its raw form and you really don't want to mess too many of them up...
Such an argument relies on all knives playing on a level field and that in itself never works out.
Example:
1. Buy in a commercially produced blade and handle it up yourself. Nice knife, and a good end result for nominal outlay.
2. Commission a hand forged San Mai Tanto with real rayskin and bindings on the handle, a hand made habaki and deep laquer finish on the woodwork.
3. Buy a ground-from-O1 clone of a curently popular outdoors knife and have it finished out in the handle material and leatherwork of your choice. Heat treating might be anything from bleeding edge (again, no pun intended) to barely adequate.
Any one of the above could skin a rabit, and none of the above are ideal (IMHO) outdoors knives.
You could add the majority of 'proper' custom knives, semi-customs, hobby-made-from-components and factory stuff in there too if you had a mind.
The point is that everything is very different, and even changing the materials can take something most people take as commonplace and transform it into the extraordinary.
Value is always contentious - if you haven't the disposable income then your choices are dictated by circumstance.
Having been a full-time maker in the past and also having a full appreciation of how knives are made from start to finish in a sole-authorship effort, I get a little tired of endless arguments trying to justify the asking price.
I make (mostly) convex ground knives from A2, O1, 12C27, 15CM and S30V. Most of the carbon steel knives are forged to shape and the bevels forged in as well, with final bevelling done at the grinder. I would take exception to direct comparison with the majority of other makers because I do it a little differtently - that little difference can make a massive difference to the end product, though only the client can decide whether the asking price is worth it. Since I don't get any returns and since I have a full order book I must be doing something right...
Low volume hobby makers generally haven't invested thousands into their workshop, tooling, heat treating setup, and then spent the time to learn how to get the most from those resources, so the entire argument about justifying cost is flawed if you take the grossly oversimplified stance that your typical knife is £5 worth of steel, some leather, wood and little else.
I have charged thousands for past projects, but the complexity and materials justified the cost to the clients. Others can regularly charge that sort of money simply by adding their moniker, and good luck to them.
Right ?
Wrong ?
Who cares ?
We all reserve the right to vote any way we choose, more often than not at least partly assisted/governed by our level of disposable income at the time the decision is made.
Not all knives are created equal though - the best materials can easily be loused up by sloppy work or less-than-optimal heat treating and, on balance, there are more (supposedly 'hand-made') knives out there constructed using these methods than those that manage to combine good workmanship and optimal heat treating into a high-performance knife.
Compared to the majority of endorsed knives out there the Les Stroud offering manages to combine some interesting and very usable design features, a high quality and very capable blade, with an extremely competitive asking price.
Buy one if you like, or not as the case may be.
Is a Mora as good ?
I don't think that it is, but in the right hands any knife can be used to do good work and it has the obvious cost-effective benefit.
Well Said Xunil. Rolex or Casio? Ferrari or robin reliant? who cares! if you have the money buy what you want. The World is a huge commercial enterprise and it will never change, If anything it's getting worse with legal product placement and the weather girl advertising her hair stylist and clothes retailer, ***?
If Mond and Al want to make a few quid, good luck, there's one born every minute. I know that to be a fact because I was one.
back on topic, do these handles look like they are going to go the way of the Spyderco BCUK knife?
If Mond and Al want to make a few quid, good luck, there's one born every minute. I know that to be a fact because I was one.
back on topic, do these handles look like they are going to go the way of the Spyderco BCUK knife?
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OK, I collected a missed delivery from my local GPO depot today.
I had £26-95 per knife to pay (I had ordered two) but then after paying the VAT at £18-95 plus Royal Mail International Handling Fee at £8 per knife, I was then informed that only one parcel could be found, containing one knife.
Hmmmm...
Two sets of fees - one knife. That doesn't add up no matter how you look at it.
After much searching by GPO staff I left with one knife instead of two and a claim in process for missing goods which, I am sure you will all understand, robbed the day of at least some of its potential
That aside, here we are:
First impressions are very mixed. In size and shape this is a great knife for all round general work. The grip is very comfortable in all holds and the blade shipped pretty sharp, certainly good enough to get to work straight away. The handle material is very nicely figured and well finished.
The sheath looks simple and I guess it is to some people but it is more than adequate and contains a kydex (or similar plastic) insert to protect the blade and to prevent it cutting through the leather, so no prizes in a beauty contest but more than up to the job of working outdoors safely.
Now, the spine of the blade is slightly proud of the handle material on my example, and if you run your nail over it you can feel it snag quite badly.
More worrying on mine is that it looks like I may have a dry joint at the front of the handle material on both sides of the tang. If you look on the second photo you can see that the tight bond of tang to timber at the right of the image opens up to an obvious gap at the front of the handle. I've not looked very closely yet but it is either a dry joint or a wide joined that has been backfilled with epoxy.
On the one hand I very much like the feel of the knife in the hand and on the other I am disappointed with the fit and finish. I can easily sort out the spine (not that I should have to) but that gap at the front of the handle material is not something I am impressed with. I am going to have a closer look with a loupe or magnifying glass to figure out whether it is a gap or not. If it is a gap it's going back to Helle (as it were) and it may still go back to them for the overall issues of finish.
Helle knives for the most part are better than this example in my experience, and I am surprised to see these issues on something more expensive than their usual range.
So aside from the issue of a missing knife (some thieving light fingered delivery chappie will, I hope, slip the first time he uses it and do himself a mischief) this particular example has some finishing issues that I am surprised passed quality control.
Impressed and miffed all at the same time. An odd combination, to be sure...
I will think about my next move and keep you advised accordingly.
I had £26-95 per knife to pay (I had ordered two) but then after paying the VAT at £18-95 plus Royal Mail International Handling Fee at £8 per knife, I was then informed that only one parcel could be found, containing one knife.
Hmmmm...
Two sets of fees - one knife. That doesn't add up no matter how you look at it.
After much searching by GPO staff I left with one knife instead of two and a claim in process for missing goods which, I am sure you will all understand, robbed the day of at least some of its potential
That aside, here we are:
First impressions are very mixed. In size and shape this is a great knife for all round general work. The grip is very comfortable in all holds and the blade shipped pretty sharp, certainly good enough to get to work straight away. The handle material is very nicely figured and well finished.
The sheath looks simple and I guess it is to some people but it is more than adequate and contains a kydex (or similar plastic) insert to protect the blade and to prevent it cutting through the leather, so no prizes in a beauty contest but more than up to the job of working outdoors safely.
Now, the spine of the blade is slightly proud of the handle material on my example, and if you run your nail over it you can feel it snag quite badly.
More worrying on mine is that it looks like I may have a dry joint at the front of the handle material on both sides of the tang. If you look on the second photo you can see that the tight bond of tang to timber at the right of the image opens up to an obvious gap at the front of the handle. I've not looked very closely yet but it is either a dry joint or a wide joined that has been backfilled with epoxy.
On the one hand I very much like the feel of the knife in the hand and on the other I am disappointed with the fit and finish. I can easily sort out the spine (not that I should have to) but that gap at the front of the handle material is not something I am impressed with. I am going to have a closer look with a loupe or magnifying glass to figure out whether it is a gap or not. If it is a gap it's going back to Helle (as it were
) and it may still go back to them for the overall issues of finish.Helle knives for the most part are better than this example in my experience, and I am surprised to see these issues on something more expensive than their usual range.
So aside from the issue of a missing knife (some thieving light fingered delivery chappie will, I hope, slip the first time he uses it and do himself a mischief
) this particular example has some finishing issues that I am surprised passed quality control.Impressed and miffed all at the same time. An odd combination, to be sure...
I will think about my next move and keep you advised accordingly.
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Mine has not yet arrived, so I read this with distinctly mixed feelings.
The blade shape and general geometry, the expert consulted for the design and the manufacturer - all these things marked it out as a winner. I did have some slight misgivings about the handle/tang arrangement. Although neat in theory, it struck me that it could never have quite the integrity and snugness of finish that a normal full tang blade would have. It is a pity to read Xunil's comments on a knife from a manufacturer whose name is synonymous with that sort of attention to detail and quality. Without a trace of schadenfreude, I hope that mine is not plagued by an indifferent fit and finish; however, I am ready for the worst. If it doesn't pass muster on the handle front, I might see if I can't find a noble knife maker to re-handle it.
I now sit and wait for something to appear from Canada. My excitement hasn't diminished - it's been morphed to something a little more muted and, perhaps, cynical. Xunil, we will compare notes, assuming that no light-fingered infidel takes an unhealthy interest in my Les Stroud special...
The blade shape and general geometry, the expert consulted for the design and the manufacturer - all these things marked it out as a winner. I did have some slight misgivings about the handle/tang arrangement. Although neat in theory, it struck me that it could never have quite the integrity and snugness of finish that a normal full tang blade would have. It is a pity to read Xunil's comments on a knife from a manufacturer whose name is synonymous with that sort of attention to detail and quality. Without a trace of schadenfreude, I hope that mine is not plagued by an indifferent fit and finish; however, I am ready for the worst. If it doesn't pass muster on the handle front, I might see if I can't find a noble knife maker to re-handle it.
I now sit and wait for something to appear from Canada. My excitement hasn't diminished - it's been morphed to something a little more muted and, perhaps, cynical. Xunil, we will compare notes, assuming that no light-fingered infidel takes an unhealthy interest in my Les Stroud special...
OK, here's what "scope eye" can now confirm: gaps/dry joint.
I had the wrong glasses on earlier to be able to confirm (hence my reference to a loupe/magnifying glass).
This one is going back to Helle and I will chase up the missing, second knife as a separate issue through the GPO.
I know what has happened here: the handle material has been machined prior to assembly and the wood has subsequently moved slightly after the slot was milled/routed or the whole assembly has moved at that end of the grip after glue-up.
In fairness it is not uncommon for this to happen and it is one of the joys/hazards of working with natural handle materials. In fact, it can happen even with stabilised handle materials and I showed another BCUK member only this afternoon a full tang knife with exhibition grade stabilised slabs where both ends of each slab had lifted slightly from the tang. Even supposedly dimensionally stable material can move enough to compromise a glue-up.
I wouldn't ship a knife out like this if I'd made it and I won't accept one in this condition as a consumer, but I am practical enough to admit that this is not a manufacturing fault so much as the very real risk of working with natural materials making itself noticed.
"scope eye" out.
I had the wrong glasses on earlier to be able to confirm (hence my reference to a loupe/magnifying glass).
This one is going back to Helle and I will chase up the missing, second knife as a separate issue through the GPO.
I know what has happened here: the handle material has been machined prior to assembly and the wood has subsequently moved slightly after the slot was milled/routed or the whole assembly has moved at that end of the grip after glue-up.
In fairness it is not uncommon for this to happen and it is one of the joys/hazards of working with natural handle materials. In fact, it can happen even with stabilised handle materials and I showed another BCUK member only this afternoon a full tang knife with exhibition grade stabilised slabs where both ends of each slab had lifted slightly from the tang. Even supposedly dimensionally stable material can move enough to compromise a glue-up.
I wouldn't ship a knife out like this if I'd made it and I won't accept one in this condition as a consumer, but I am practical enough to admit that this is not a manufacturing fault so much as the very real risk of working with natural materials making itself noticed.
"scope eye" out.
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Update:
I emailed my concerns (with pictures) to Helle who have responded wonderfully well. The MD (no less) was very apologetic and reassuring and has assured me that Helle's export manager will contact me to arrange a replacement Temagami.
He also thanked me for the pictures which, to him, meant "we can immediately do corrective measures".
Whenever you buy something the risk is that it can go wrong - I am always more concerned about how any problem is dealt with than the fact there was a problem to begin with and, so far, I cannot fault Helle's efforts in this regard.
Big steps in the right direction and top marks to Helle for their after-market service
Having handled my Temagami in several different holds and in both hands, emulating various working grips, I am very much looking forward to using it once this is dealt with
I emailed my concerns (with pictures) to Helle who have responded wonderfully well. The MD (no less) was very apologetic and reassuring and has assured me that Helle's export manager will contact me to arrange a replacement Temagami.
He also thanked me for the pictures which, to him, meant "we can immediately do corrective measures".
Whenever you buy something the risk is that it can go wrong - I am always more concerned about how any problem is dealt with than the fact there was a problem to begin with and, so far, I cannot fault Helle's efforts in this regard.
Big steps in the right direction and top marks to Helle for their after-market service
Having handled my Temagami in several different holds and in both hands, emulating various working grips, I am very much looking forward to using it once this is dealt with
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Things happen fast around here...
Helle's export manager has requested that I return the knife to Norway and he will send out a replacement on receipt of mine.
To recompense my shipping costs in returning the knife to them he has also offered to include a smaller knife from the Helle range with my replacement Temagami.
Can't say fairer than that, and hats off for a rapid, bend-over-backwards response.
Other companies should take notes at this point...
But wait !
That's not all...
I got a call today from GPO customer services - they have located my missing parcel containing the second Temagami kniife, which is now accounted for (somewhere) and I should have it some time over the next few days
So in my book that's great service and while I would have preferred the knife to be right when I received it Helle's after-market care is certainly well up to muster, so I remain a very firm fan of their products which I have been for many years.
Happy days
Helle's export manager has requested that I return the knife to Norway and he will send out a replacement on receipt of mine.
To recompense my shipping costs in returning the knife to them he has also offered to include a smaller knife from the Helle range with my replacement Temagami.
Can't say fairer than that, and hats off for a rapid, bend-over-backwards response.
Other companies should take notes at this point...
But wait !
That's not all...
I got a call today from GPO customer services - they have located my missing parcel containing the second Temagami kniife, which is now accounted for (somewhere) and I should have it some time over the next few days
So in my book that's great service and while I would have preferred the knife to be right when I received it Helle's after-market care is certainly well up to muster, so I remain a very firm fan of their products which I have been for many years.
Happy days
i hope it turns out ok in the end,perhaps its just production glitches.
quality control is just so important.
as for royal mail 5 signed fors this week and hes just put them though the letter box.
but i hate to say it the enzo trapper i made last week [my first ever] looks better built than that.
quality control is just so important.
as for royal mail 5 signed fors this week and hes just put them though the letter box.
but i hate to say it the enzo trapper i made last week [my first ever] looks better built than that.
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