Not too surprising; the police's response to being caught out is almost invariably to double down. Very disappointing though.
Learnt a bad lesson today
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Not too surprising; the police's response to being caught out is almost invariably to double down. Very disappointing though.
I think mouse should write to RM anyway. and BG
Mouse going to media? nil result
Letter or article in papers written by RM and BG? Mouse probably won't get his knife back, but it might prevent this from happening to someone else.
My stance at the moment is to wait for a response From my complaint as I feel taking things further at this point before I have received a response may make things worse as I have found out that if I can have the warning removed I will have better footing to get my knife back as removing it implies that it was not a weapon and therefore there is no grounds to hold it
I'm also quite interested in getting a wallet sized knife law card made and will let you know how this goes as I have a good friend with a printing company
What do the powers that be feel about this being branded with the bcuk logo
This might take a positive from a negative
I'm also quite interested in getting a wallet sized knife law card made and will let you know how this goes as I have a good friend with a printing company
What do the powers that be feel about this being branded with the bcuk logo
This might take a positive from a negative
If you were going with a logo, assuming it "endorses" the card, then getting every logo you can on it would be the way to go?
But I would suggest that sorting you own situation out first before looking after everyone is the way to go. In the meantime there are posts on here with at least 3 different things to print and carry and I suspect that most readers will be getting pro-active on that themselves. I know I will.
I think it's worth establishing a very important point about UK knife law. As we all know, you're allowed to carry a folding knife with a blade less than three inches without 'good reason'. If the knife that you're carrying exceeds this size, or has a fixed or locking blade, then it is for the person in possession of such an instrument to prove on the balance of probabilities that they had good reason for its possession. The canonical example of 'good reason' would be a chef transporting his knives to work, for instance.
In Mouse's case - he will need to establish this good reason before he can show that the actions of the police officer concerned was wrong. Worse than that, he will have to establish that he was demonstrating this good reason at the time of the alleged offense. Did he have a bone fide reason for needing a fixed blade knife where he was going? Would not a small, folding blade knife have served him just as well for his intended purpose? The fact that the officers conceded that carrying an axe was reasonable, whilst a fixed blade knife was not suggests to me that they do not understand that an axe is a considerably more dangerous fixed-bladed article than a small knife...
Unfortunately, when you're facing a stop / search situation, the outcome often comes down to passing the 'attitude test'. Did you come across as a reasonable, level headed person? Did you answer the officer's questions in a calm and credible manner? Did you demonstrate any reason for the officer to doubt your intentions? Such things, whilst not enshrined in law, often determine the way that this sort of encounter play out.
Of course - all this just goes to show that media perceptions of 'knife crime' often heavily influence policing priorities. Ultimately, it's for senior officers to set the agenda about how people found to be carrying bladed articles are dealt with. Letting someone go on their way once you have established that they are in possession of an illegal knife is not something that most police officers will take lightly in the current hysterical climate.
I carry a camera more often than I carry a fixed blade knife and it's worth looking to the way that Photographers have organised to fight back against unreasonable stop / searches based on public perceptions of their perfectly innocent activities.
http://photographernotaterrorist.org/
Perhaps we need a campaign like I'm a Bushcrafter not a Knifecrimer ?
In Mouse's case - he will need to establish this good reason before he can show that the actions of the police officer concerned was wrong. Worse than that, he will have to establish that he was demonstrating this good reason at the time of the alleged offense. Did he have a bone fide reason for needing a fixed blade knife where he was going? Would not a small, folding blade knife have served him just as well for his intended purpose? The fact that the officers conceded that carrying an axe was reasonable, whilst a fixed blade knife was not suggests to me that they do not understand that an axe is a considerably more dangerous fixed-bladed article than a small knife...
Unfortunately, when you're facing a stop / search situation, the outcome often comes down to passing the 'attitude test'. Did you come across as a reasonable, level headed person? Did you answer the officer's questions in a calm and credible manner? Did you demonstrate any reason for the officer to doubt your intentions? Such things, whilst not enshrined in law, often determine the way that this sort of encounter play out.
Of course - all this just goes to show that media perceptions of 'knife crime' often heavily influence policing priorities. Ultimately, it's for senior officers to set the agenda about how people found to be carrying bladed articles are dealt with. Letting someone go on their way once you have established that they are in possession of an illegal knife is not something that most police officers will take lightly in the current hysterical climate.
I carry a camera more often than I carry a fixed blade knife and it's worth looking to the way that Photographers have organised to fight back against unreasonable stop / searches based on public perceptions of their perfectly innocent activities.
http://photographernotaterrorist.org/
Perhaps we need a campaign like I'm a Bushcrafter not a Knifecrimer ?
I've been following this with interest, as have the currently 20 others reading this thread no doubt.
Just for the record, has anyone been subjected to a stop/search whilst carrying sharps and been allowed to go on their way?
Just for the record, has anyone been subjected to a stop/search whilst carrying sharps and been allowed to go on their way?
I wasn't stopped, however, I had 2 police officers sit and watch me carving a spoon, using an axe, Mora clipper and spoon knife. This was at a community event, with families walking around, bouncy castles and bun decorating.
They didn't bat an eyelid, and were quite interested in the process, saying they'd not seen stuff carved with axes and knives before.
Even though this was an organised event (local charity), the police could have easily confiscated my tools, what with kids and families not 20 foot from me.
touched by nature
There's two things I wanted to the General dialogue but hadn't wanted to until after Mouse's visit, which this post reminds me of.
1. The police are likely to be judged/under pressure to get "results", letting bushcrafters go about their business isn't a result they will be measure on.
2. Charlotte specfically says
Spot on.
In NI we were stopped (in cars) on a daily basis by police checkpoints. I was scared of them and even with all my documents perfectly in order I often got loads of hassle. On the other hand my friend (who had a juvenille record several pages long) had no fear and could breeze through a check-point with no Tax, Inurance or MOT.
This is why I was picking up on the amount of fear the thread was generating, because if you have that feeling it becomes like a big Neon Sign that says "Investigate me I am up to no good".
Additionally
3. I think any organisation that we could create that we bcome card carrying memeber of would be comprimised, as soon as somebody who was up to no good saw it becoming a member was a good way to circumvent the law. As pointed out in previous threads the ambiguity/flexibility to give Police the ability to think on the job is good, but as in this thread it, it does have a human doing it and humans make mistakes. That said it was mentioned in the Pub last night that if this were a gun and Mouse was a member of the BASC(?) then he would have a whole network of support in getting his record cleared and gun back.
and the ''bad lesson'' anyone should learn from this thread is that even when you have done nothing illegal whatsoever the police will try to twist the law (or even make it up) and pretend that you have broken it and the constable at incident will be backed up by his superiors, lesson is to know your rights beforehand stand firm and do NOT be fooled into accepting a warning/caution for something which is not illegal, it is NOT illegal to transport anything from home to place of legitimate use, it is completely legal to transport a rifle or shotgun from your home to the place of legitimate use/shoot or to a place of repair provided it is in a case/cover wether that be in a vehicle or on foot, when people are transporting their shotguns from home to a shoot they are not all breaking the law they are acting within the law and a knife is no different in this respect, on shoots you often have to cross public roads or even public footpaths and provided it is cased when doing so it is perfectly legal, it is illegal to ‘use’’ it in public but not to ‘transport’ it in public. Carrying 'cards' is all well and good but in my experience when you try to tell a constable what the law is they get very irate and usually spew out the words ''i am a policeman i know the law'', well wether they know the law is one thing wether they enforce it correctly is another. Sadly another issue as to potential conflict is that if i was a wealthy landowner who was transporting a shotgun to a pheasant shoot it would be unlikely to cause conflict with a policeman but if i lived in a council flat in the middle of a town and legally transported a knife in a bag to a legitimate place of use then the police will have a problem with it, however neither are breaking the law. The lesson is only YOU yourself will protect yourself WITH the law and FROM the law, and if you don’t know the law then ALWAYS seek professional help from a solicitor BEFORE you sign anything whatsoever from a policeman. There have been documented cases where people have spent many years in prison who were known to be innocent but were only released due to public protestation, once you sign anything the police will not reverse it without a lengthy costly legal battle, if at all.
Firstly have to sympathise with mouse there for his loss on this situation. But after everything it just shows a growing scary issue with the UK government and police forces. I have several friends who are very into various country sports at the lower end of things, so its blue collar folks out with dogs for foxes etc all with permissions and so forth. It seems in that community nearly every week someone is stopped and near harassed and threatened with police action over what is a perfectly legal activity, the same here seems more and more applying to bushcraft.
Here in Northern Ireland we had a new bill passed regarding the use of the outdoors that boarders on the draconian, at one point it would of been illegal to walk your dog on a lead after sunset in a forest. But what seems to happen more and more is the pushing back into towns and cities and the deprevation of outdoor activities, unless done in an approved manner at an approved time and place (after paying all the approved fees). While a small number of just plain bad eggs exist in the police force I know from personal contact with a large number that most "beat bobbys" are good folk and it seems they are just all very misinformed.
With all the media hype over the last number of years of various weapon crimes we now live in a society where the mere mention of "knife, axe" means your a psycho out to harm others. This is obviously rubbing off on the police leadership and filtering down to the standard beat officers. I very much liked the idea of writing to your local chief inspector to request their own professional views on carrying various sharps for safe legal use. What I would suggest and think provide more interesting results is if these replies were compared to see just how much of a difference there is between forces. If these differences could be highlighted to various force or even MP's then there would surely be grounds to get something standardised so both we as bushcrafters and the police would feel confident and secure in what we legally can and cannot do.
Personally I intend to draft up a formal request to my local police force to try and get some clear answers, I'd hate to imagine one day finding myself in the position mouse did simply because I had crossed a county boarder and the local police don't sing from the same book.
On the whole card carrying issue I would think it's a good idea providing the police all know the law correctly first. Oddly enough I know for a fact I can safely carry a couple of shotguns anywhere with me without fear of reprisal because there are clear guidlines on their use and transport.
Here in Northern Ireland we had a new bill passed regarding the use of the outdoors that boarders on the draconian, at one point it would of been illegal to walk your dog on a lead after sunset in a forest. But what seems to happen more and more is the pushing back into towns and cities and the deprevation of outdoor activities, unless done in an approved manner at an approved time and place (after paying all the approved fees). While a small number of just plain bad eggs exist in the police force I know from personal contact with a large number that most "beat bobbys" are good folk and it seems they are just all very misinformed.
With all the media hype over the last number of years of various weapon crimes we now live in a society where the mere mention of "knife, axe" means your a psycho out to harm others. This is obviously rubbing off on the police leadership and filtering down to the standard beat officers. I very much liked the idea of writing to your local chief inspector to request their own professional views on carrying various sharps for safe legal use. What I would suggest and think provide more interesting results is if these replies were compared to see just how much of a difference there is between forces. If these differences could be highlighted to various force or even MP's then there would surely be grounds to get something standardised so both we as bushcrafters and the police would feel confident and secure in what we legally can and cannot do.
Personally I intend to draft up a formal request to my local police force to try and get some clear answers, I'd hate to imagine one day finding myself in the position mouse did simply because I had crossed a county boarder and the local police don't sing from the same book.
On the whole card carrying issue I would think it's a good idea providing the police all know the law correctly first. Oddly enough I know for a fact I can safely carry a couple of shotguns anywhere with me without fear of reprisal because there are clear guidlines on their use and transport.
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From reading your post swright I get the impression that you were doing a demo at a local fete or some such event. As such the sharps would clearly have been tools and you would have been in the middle of the process of demonstrating your just cause for having them when the police saw you. So this would maybe have been a bit of a clearer case for the officers than someone walking down the street with sharps in their bag.
One stop and search, once, about to enter a courthouse. The stop and search was at a train station, no hassle, no questions.
The courthouse - I was going in to get some documents stamped, left large locking SAK in bag. Told the officials on entry (assuming they would put it behind desk), they immediately led me out of the courthouse entrance and said they'd have to confiscate it (perfectly legal for them to do so, courthouses have special rules). They then said "Stick it behind a wall or something and pick it up when you leave, happens all the time".
Re Stringmakers question, myself and Savagebushcraft, were camping in a wood called The Great Plantation, over 300 acres of wood, which i had played and camped in as a kid, the trouble is we did not know that ownership of the wood had changed (council) we did not go in as deep as we normally do, as we were meeting other pals, and they would never have found us, subsequently we were close to a footpath, a chap walked past and phoned the police, saying there were two army types, armed to the teeth camping in the wood.
Anyway the next thing we knew was 2 traffic policemen approaching us cautiously, with pepper spray and tazer drawn, and shouted were we armed, i replied no, and they advanced, so without drawing it out we were separated, questioned and searched, now we both had fixed blade knives, me a mora clipper, Adam a knife he had made himself, a folding bow saw, and we both had an axe each, me a gb small forest and Adam a husky, all of these items were on display, i also had a folding lock knife and a catty and ammo.
The police asked what we were doing there (once they had confirmed who we were by radio) We explained that we were bushcrafting(you know Ray Mears) Standard answer, they then phoned the council to ask if we were allowed to be in the wood, which was not a problem, only the small fire we had was, so we were asked to pack up in our own time and leave, which we did.
But as far as having sharps of various description on our person, the police made absolutely nothing of it, whether because we had just cause, or they did not want the paper work or some other reason, who knows?
I will add we conformed to their every command, and were polite, we even offered them a brew(which they declined)
So my one and only experience, although a little scary, when they approached was no problem.
Ivan...
Anyway the next thing we knew was 2 traffic policemen approaching us cautiously, with pepper spray and tazer drawn, and shouted were we armed, i replied no, and they advanced, so without drawing it out we were separated, questioned and searched, now we both had fixed blade knives, me a mora clipper, Adam a knife he had made himself, a folding bow saw, and we both had an axe each, me a gb small forest and Adam a husky, all of these items were on display, i also had a folding lock knife and a catty and ammo.
The police asked what we were doing there (once they had confirmed who we were by radio) We explained that we were bushcrafting(you know Ray Mears) Standard answer, they then phoned the council to ask if we were allowed to be in the wood, which was not a problem, only the small fire we had was, so we were asked to pack up in our own time and leave, which we did.
But as far as having sharps of various description on our person, the police made absolutely nothing of it, whether because we had just cause, or they did not want the paper work or some other reason, who knows?
I will add we conformed to their every command, and were polite, we even offered them a brew(which they declined)
So my one and only experience, although a little scary, when they approached was no problem.
Ivan...
Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I was very interested in the jounrnalist piece and shall keep my eye on how they fare. IMO there is a massive amount of hysteria about knives and guns and terrorists - GWB's "war on terror" as an excuse to clamp down on people, let's not go there! It's also true that there is a massive backing group of support for gun owners (which I approve of).
My hackles went up when I read the piece about Scouts' knives likely to be taken from them. It felt like the beginning of a slippery slope and I don't like it. Now we have Mouse's case ... yes, it's only one, only him, at the moment, but ... There are indeed people out there of all ages who carry knives (sharps in general) with intent to either do harm or in the illusion that carrying them will help them "defend" themselves. Bushcrafters are not these sort of folk, for us knives are "tools" not "weapons" although it is always possible we may be infiltrated by the other sort. As knife-craft is such an integral part of bushcraft for just about all of us I do feel we should discuss and consider how to make our own work better known and so acceptable to the police.
My own experience of the police has been largely good and I have great respect for them but they (like us) can have their less-good officers and officers who are having a bad day. If there is a way we can educate them to knowing what we do, how we do it and how it is a "good thing" (to quote 1066 and All that) then we will be doing a service to our own members and to folk outside who will come to understand that knife-craft is very different from gang-craft.
There are thoughts running round my brain (what there is of it! Mine is like Pooh's!) about some form of Bushcraft Organisation which might be able to have similar status, acceptance and understanding as the gun organisations. Don't ask me how it could/would be done, I think it all needs a lot more discussion which it will likely get here
. I do think Mouse's predicament is a bit of a wake-up call to all of us.
The "attitude thing" is very much a part of it too, along with Kepis advice about carrying a half-finished spoon in your bag of sharps-kit. I'm old, female, look somewhat battered but otherwise normal, have a posh voice and can do Lady Muck when required. I'm still keeping my sharps bag (+spoon) at the bottom of my sack, not readily available, and I sleep with a coat-hanger in my mouth to make sure my smile is good. How you respond in that very first instant when the police officer stops you is the key - same as when they pull you over for speeding (which, of course, I never do being old, batterd, female etc!!). Perhaps it's something to discuss/practice at meets and things?
Swallow, I do understand what you've said about getting OTT and hyper but I do also think "community" in some form would be good to consider right now. The climate of "normal" has hotted up over the past five or so years, there is a lot of "looking" and "watching" to see if people "fit in the box". As bushcrafters we don't. Community, education (as per Kepis & Roy, and hopefully going much wider) would be good and would help this knife-problem.
Watching to see where we all feel we want to go ... and rooting for you, Mouse
My hackles went up when I read the piece about Scouts' knives likely to be taken from them. It felt like the beginning of a slippery slope and I don't like it. Now we have Mouse's case ... yes, it's only one, only him, at the moment, but ... There are indeed people out there of all ages who carry knives (sharps in general) with intent to either do harm or in the illusion that carrying them will help them "defend" themselves. Bushcrafters are not these sort of folk, for us knives are "tools" not "weapons" although it is always possible we may be infiltrated by the other sort. As knife-craft is such an integral part of bushcraft for just about all of us I do feel we should discuss and consider how to make our own work better known and so acceptable to the police.
My own experience of the police has been largely good and I have great respect for them but they (like us) can have their less-good officers and officers who are having a bad day. If there is a way we can educate them to knowing what we do, how we do it and how it is a "good thing" (to quote 1066 and All that) then we will be doing a service to our own members and to folk outside who will come to understand that knife-craft is very different from gang-craft.
There are thoughts running round my brain (what there is of it! Mine is like Pooh's!) about some form of Bushcraft Organisation which might be able to have similar status, acceptance and understanding as the gun organisations. Don't ask me how it could/would be done, I think it all needs a lot more discussion which it will likely get here
. I do think Mouse's predicament is a bit of a wake-up call to all of us. The "attitude thing" is very much a part of it too, along with Kepis advice about carrying a half-finished spoon in your bag of sharps-kit. I'm old, female, look somewhat battered but otherwise normal, have a posh voice and can do Lady Muck when required. I'm still keeping my sharps bag (+spoon) at the bottom of my sack, not readily available, and I sleep with a coat-hanger in my mouth to make sure my smile is good
. How you respond in that very first instant when the police officer stops you is the key - same as when they pull you over for speeding (which, of course, I never do being old, batterd, female etc!!). Perhaps it's something to discuss/practice at meets and things? Swallow, I do understand what you've said about getting OTT and hyper but I do also think "community" in some form would be good to consider right now. The climate of "normal" has hotted up over the past five or so years, there is a lot of "looking" and "watching" to see if people "fit in the box". As bushcrafters we don't. Community, education (as per Kepis & Roy, and hopefully going much wider) would be good and would help this knife-problem.
Watching to see where we all feel we want to go ... and rooting for you, Mouse
Quoted from gov.uk...
Good reasons for carrying a knife
Examples of good reasons to carry a knife in public can include:
taking knives you use at work to and from work
youre taking knives to a gallery or museum to be exhibited
the knife is going to be used for theatre, film, televison, historical reenactment or religious purposes (eg the kirpan some Sikhs carry)
A court will decide if youve got a good reason to carry a knife if youre charged with carrying it illegally.
In my ignorance, I'd probably say to a copper, arrest and charge me and let the court decide. Rather than let them be judge jury and executioner
Good reasons for carrying a knife
Examples of good reasons to carry a knife in public can include:
taking knives you use at work to and from work
youre taking knives to a gallery or museum to be exhibited
the knife is going to be used for theatre, film, televison, historical reenactment or religious purposes (eg the kirpan some Sikhs carry)
A court will decide if youve got a good reason to carry a knife if youre charged with carrying it illegally.
In my ignorance, I'd probably say to a copper, arrest and charge me and let the court decide. Rather than let them be judge jury and executioner
I think it's fair to say they mainly seem to bother people who want to go home and/or don't know the law well enough to protest the bs.
I'd love to hear a story where the individual had the time/balls to let it go to court instead of taking the 'warning' and having their possesions confiscated. The case that was over on BB a while back regarding a young man who was arrested for carrying a pen knife, the cork screw part to be precise! He also took that 'warning' but did everything he could to not only get his knife back but to fight his case and have the charges dropped. The story began by him being rude to the police who wanted to search him, knowing his knife was legitimately carried in his pocket they tried to spite him by pointing out the corkscrew. The rest is history but these things enver make it to court, where they matter!
Force it to court, seriously. It's the only way you can make an impact on attitudes, even if it is only in your imediate area. Case law changes the game, and if you can have your genuinely legal purposes scripted in law as 'good reason' like common sense would commit then we'd all outdoor enthusiasts would benefit massivley. And you'd get your knife back!
Excellent last few posts - good on you, Ellen and Paul (and Samon, who sneaked in while I was typing)!
If the options are Warning/Caution or Court, I'd always opt for the latter. The case will have to be put to the Crown Prosecution Service, who will decide if it is reasonably winnable based on the legal evidence. If not - and in Mouse's case I'd guess (on a "beyond reasonable doubt" basis) not - it dies there and then.
If the options are Warning/Caution or Court, I'd always opt for the latter. The case will have to be put to the Crown Prosecution Service, who will decide if it is reasonably winnable based on the legal evidence. If not - and in Mouse's case I'd guess (on a "beyond reasonable doubt" basis) not - it dies there and then.
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Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
This "taking knives you use at work to and from work" seems to be the one we perhaps should stick with. Am thinking about this for my trip up to Northwood at the end of the month . We are taking tools to work, they are tools, not weapons!
. We are taking tools to work, they are tools, not weapons!
This "taking knives you use at work to and from work" seems to be the one we perhaps should stick with. Am thinking about this for my trip up to Northwood at the end of the month
I'd have to disagree as unless your a butcher, carpenter or whatever the case could be argued you're not actually using them for work. Reasonable grounds and lawfull business seems the point to argue to me
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