Learnt a bad lesson today

[Gray]

What a mess

 

[Elen Sentier]

On the subject of media ...
Telegraph & Scouts quoting Dave Budd
Scotsman & Scouts quoting Patrick McGlinchey
Daily Wail (I mena Mail!) & Scouts quoting Dave Budd

To me they all sound as though they're sitting on the fence with regard to what attitude to take to keep their sales up ... education is really needed, but how ???

 

[Rockmonkey]

On the subject of media ...
Telegraph & Scouts quoting Dave Budd
Scotsman & Scouts quoting Patrick McGlinchey
Daily Wail (I mena Mail!) & Scouts quoting Dave Budd

To me they all sound as though they're sitting on the fence with regard to what attitude to take to keep their sales up ... education is really needed, but how ???

I bet all other countries are now laughing at us! ***!, something needs to be done, with all the bushcrafters, Fishermen, and all the scouts, surely we have enought power to get something changed, especially when the government keep wanting us to get our children outdoors and away from there games consoles!!

RM

 

[BBH-Skip]

I rememebr the Scouts/Knife issue coming about (I'm a Leader).
We can and still do use knives. In my hut I have a locked box of 25 Moras, which my Cubs and Scouts regualrly get their hands on - normally making 'Stick Trolls' to practice safe cutting technique.
Although dated, this was the follow up to the links provided by Elen http://scouts.org.uk/news/2009/09/the-truth-about-scouts-and-knives/
Off topic I know, but wanted to provide the other view.

Mark

 

[Chris the Cat]

On the subject of media ...
Telegraph & Scouts quoting Dave Budd
Scotsman & Scouts quoting Patrick McGlinchey
Daily Wail (I mena Mail!) & Scouts quoting Dave Budd

To me they all sound as though they're sitting on the fence with regard to what attitude to take to keep their sales up ... education is really needed, but how ???

I think you will find that dave said none of those things Elen.( wildly mis-quoted iirc. )
VERY upset he was over on BB when that came out.
I would check with Dave before posting if it were me.

Best.

Chris.

 

[BBH-Skip]

In actual fact, the latest guidance from The Scout Association doesnt differ from that we practice as 'Bushcrafters'.
https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515

Mark

 

[Swallow]

@BBH-Skip

I think these are very much on-topic (from the point of view how the topic widened from "Mouse's situation" to "everyone's situation").

 

[BBH-Skip]

Valid Point Swallow
BBH-Skip locks himself firmly back in his box

Mouse - I feel for you! For your situation to have escalated to the level it did/has is awful, as is the loss (theft as some have put) of your knife.

What it has done for me, is highlight the fact that not all out there are as knowledgable as others (including those in a position of power), and we need to be prepared on the off chance it is one of us in Mouse's unfortunate position. I'm not saying the card is a good or bad idea, but being aware of the contents of the legislation and how to act within it can only be a positive surely?
Echoing the majority, quoting it to a Contstable probably wouldnt work in your favour, in the same ilk as quoting the Highway code to a Traffic Copper - I think it would just get their backs up - and they'd find something else to collar you with.

My final thoughts are this though...
I think it has been fantastic to see everyone rally round. The offers of support and guidance have been ceasless, and with Mouse's best interest at heart.
Although only a newbie, I am hounoured to be part of such a great group of people, and proud to be one of your number!

Oooh, think I have just been sick in my own mouth!!! (but the sentiment still stands!!)

Mark

 

[delphijedi]

Valid Point Swallow
BBH-Skip locks himself firmly back in his box

Mouse - I feel for you! For your situation to have escalated to the level it did/has is awful, as is the loss (theft as some have put) of your knife.

What it has done for me, is highlight the fact that not all out there are as knowledgable as others (including those in a position of power), and we need to be prepared on the off chance it is one of us in Mouse's unfortunate position. I'm not saying the card is a good or bad idea, but being aware of the contents of the legislation and how to act within it can only be a positive surely?
Echoing the majority, quoting it to a Contstable probably wouldnt work in your favour, in the same ilk as quoting the Highway code to a Traffic Copper - I think it would just get their backs up - and they'd find something else to collar you with.

My final thoughts are this though...
I think it has been fantastic to see everyone rally round. The offers of support and guidance have been ceasless, and with Mouse's best interest at heart.
Although only a newbie, I am hounoured to be part of such a great group of people, and proud to be one of your number!

Oooh, think I have just been sick in my own mouth!!! (but the sentiment still stands!!)

Mark

Also as a Noobie I share BBH sentiments, I don't think it would be wise to quote the law back to police officers, however I do like the idea of carrying a card that does state the law even for only peace of mind.

Luke.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

I get the general impression from this thread that folk are trying to interprete a law to suit their own point of view. The current knife laws in the UK clearly state that it is illegal to carry a fixed blade knife or a folding knife with a blade over 3" long without having a good reason for doing so. Now that good reason is for the intervening police officer(s) to decide, not the person who is carrying the knife. It is the luck of the draw whether or not the officer in question interpretes the knife law liberally or strictly, as the 'good reasons' for carrying a knife are limited & there is only a small leeway for maneuver which can be left to the discretion of the police officer. Had the OP come across a different policeman, particularly one that practiced outdoor activities, then the encounter may well have ended on a more positive note. If you feel you have been wronged then you can always have your day in court but then it would be up to a magistrate to decide & the outcome will be dependant on how he/she interpretes the law. The OP's solictor, who presumably has some knowledge of the knife law, didn't think that he would win in a court case, which indicates, does it not, that the officers in question, were acting within the law.

I rest my case m'ludd.

 

[Rich.H]

I get the general impression from this thread that folk are trying to interprete a law to suit their own point of view. The current knife laws in the UK clearly state that it is illegal to carry a fixed blade knife or a folding knife with a blade over 3" long without having a good reason for doing so. Now that good reason is for the intervening police officer(s) to decide, not the person who is carrying the knife. It is the luck of the draw whether or not the officer in question interpretes the knife law liberally or strictly, as the 'good reasons' for carrying a knife are limited & there is only a small leeway for maneuver which can be left to the discretion of the police officer. Had the OP come across a different policeman, particularly one that practiced outdoor activities, then the encounter may well have ended on a more positive note. If you feel you have been wronged then you can always have your day in court but then it would be up to a magistrate to decide & the outcome will be dependant on how he/she interpretes the law. The OP's solictor, who presumably has some knowledge of the knife law, didn't think that he would win in a court case, which indicates, does it not, that the officers in question, were acting within the law.

I rest my case m'ludd.

It's a valid point but it also highlights the problem with the current law, nowhere in the legal landscape should anyone have to worry about exactly what sort of officer they are dealing with. Officer A should give me the same response as officer B in regards to am I breaking a law or not. At present all that happens is officers are left wondering if they use common sense will someone get stabbed later or not, and we the public are left to worry will I get arrested or not, in addition this just drives more and more folks into stealthy camping which only serves to look shifty from an outside viewpoint further adding fuel to the fire on dangerous knife folks.

 

[boatman]

I get the general impression from this thread that folk are trying to interprete a law to suit their own point of view. The current knife laws in the UK clearly state that it is illegal to carry a fixed blade knife or a folding knife with a blade over 3" long without having a good reason for doing so. Now that good reason is for the intervening police officer(s) to decide, not the person who is carrying the knife. It is the luck of the draw whether or not the officer in question interpretes the knife law liberally or strictly, as the 'good reasons' for carrying a knife are limited & there is only a small leeway for maneuver which can be left to the discretion of the police officer. Had the OP come across a different policeman, particularly one that practiced outdoor activities, then the encounter may well have ended on a more positive note. If you feel you have been wronged then you can always have your day in court but then it would be up to a magistrate to decide & the outcome will be dependant on how he/she interpretes the law. The OP's solictor, who presumably has some knowledge of the knife law, didn't think that he would win in a court case, which indicates, does it not, that the officers in question, were acting within the law.

I rest my case m'ludd.

What point are you trying to make? If it had come to a prosecution the prosecuting solocitor would have to have come to a decision as to whether there was a reasonable chance of a success. Given the stated facts of the case many would see that outcome as unlikely. This is why we have law courts, arbitary "justice" should be resisted as it depends on the opinion of one of our servants, a constable, that opinion can and must be tested in the courts. We do ourselves no service by moderating our behaviour which is legal in the first place.

 

[Jared]

I get the general impression from this thread that folk are trying to interprete a law to suit their own point of view. The current knife laws in the UK clearly state that it is illegal to carry a fixed blade knife or a folding knife with a blade over 3" long without having a good reason for doing so. Now that good reason is for the intervening police officer(s) to decide, not the person who is carrying the knife. It is the luck of the draw whether or not the officer in question interpretes the knife law liberally or strictly, as the 'good reasons' for carrying a knife are limited & there is only a small leeway for maneuver which can be left to the discretion of the police officer. Had the OP come across a different policeman, particularly one that practiced outdoor activities, then the encounter may well have ended on a more positive note. If you feel you have been wronged then you can always have your day in court but then it would be up to a magistrate to decide & the outcome will be dependant on how he/she interpretes the law. The OP's solictor, who presumably has some knowledge of the knife law, didn't think that he would win in a court case, which indicates, does it not, that the officers in question, were acting within the law.

I rest my case m'ludd.

The police officer doesn't decide whether a reason is valid or not. That'll be the courts, if it gets past the CPS.

Transporting any legal knife is legal. Anything else is clearly nonsensical.

 

[Biker]

Edit ....I'm not saying the card is a good or bad idea, but being aware of the contents of the legislation and how to act within it can only be a positive surely?
Echoing the majority, quoting it to a Contstable probably wouldnt work in your favour, in the same ilk as quoting the Highway code to a Traffic Copper - I think it would just get their backs up - and they'd find something else to collar you with.

My final thoughts are this though...
I think it has been fantastic to see everyone rally round. The offers of support and guidance have been ceasless, and with Mouse's best interest at heart.
Although only a newbie, I am hounoured to be part of such a great group of people, and proud to be one of your number!

Oooh, think I have just been sick in my own mouth!!! (but the sentiment still stands!!)

Mark

For me having a crib sheet type card in my pocket for what is lawful and what rights I have if confronted would be a help. Last week I was watching a lot of those Youtube clips of border controls within the US "Am I detained? Or am I free to go" was bandied about a lot. Obviously that is the US of A and UK is a lot different. But like I said having your rights clearly listed and what a Policeman can justifiably do in the way of a stop and search would be a VERY handy reference. I don't advocate outright refusal to comply, but a misinformed bully wearing a uniform and on a power rush can be pretty intimidating and they can get you off balance pretty quickly. I'd be tempted to record the entire exchange if I had a camera with me too.

Since someone asked for personal experiences in Police and knives. I was tugged at Calais border control while traveling to The Moot last year. It happened to coincide on the same night as the opening ceremony of the Olympic games and I was traveling at 11.30pm (cheaper ticket price) So border control was tighter usual.
I rolled through passport control and had no probs, but a routine tug to pop the boot to see if I was carrying 13 illegal Eastern European immigrants in there didn't surprise me. There were guards everywhere that night. So I popped the boot and the first thing the officer saw was my compound bow resting on the top of all my gear. He asked if I had a permit for it, I said I didn't need one. He wasn't too pleased about that and passed me up the chain of command, because I got then sent over to another inspection point where I had to unload everything out of my car and pass it through an X-ray machine.... Then they found my bag of carpentry tools which included chisels, gouges, drawknife and my Hill Bill sheath knife wrapped in a rag. This naturally got them excited (it is a good knife after all ) but the word "arme" (French for weapon) was said a lot. Each time I corrected them by saying "outil" (tool) Finally the police turned up and gave things a once over as well.
All the while this was happening I was polite and didn't get stroppy in the least. I knew they'd have me over a barrel if I kicked off. So I let the dogs sniff all over my car and the 12 uniformed officials, including two Police have a look inside. They agreed the sheath knife was a tool since it was obviously kept with my basic camp carpentry tool kit, so all was kosher. I loaded up the car with my stuff and managed to be the last car on the ferry I was booked on.

The only thing I was instructed to do was cover the bow up, so I wrapped that in a blanket and they were fine with that. Couldn't see the point of arguing with them about the logic of that. But I shudder to think what they'd have done had they found the 6 axes 2 billhooks and 3 drawknifes I had in the dufflebag under my seat for sale at The Moot.

Maybe the French are a bit more tolerant, I don't know, but I like to think that my stressing it was a tool and I was going about an activity that involved camping helped sway the decision in my favour and I was sent on my way. Had I got a hard-nosed policemen it could just have easily gone the other way.

I do like that tip about carrying a half finished spoon with you whilst out and about. Top tip that, thanks.

All the best Mouse. I hope whatever the final outcome is it's the least unpleasant one. Chin up mate.

Aaron

 

[blacktimberwolf]

nowhere in the legal landscape should anyone have to worry about exactly what sort of officer they are dealing with. Officer A should give me the same response as officer B in regards to am I breaking a law or not.

In an ideal world we wouldn't have to worry but police officers are only human, there are good & less good people in every walk of life, we all have our off days too & sometimes a policeman just doesn't like your face & decides to spoil your day......Recently my father was driving back from a familly do, drunk as a lord, was stopped by the police, they asked if he had been drinking, he replied yes, they then told him to p*** off. He, my father; was clearly breaking the law yet the representatives of the law chose to turn a blind eye.............like I said, luck of the draw.

 

[Oakleaf]

Rarely on here these days, so feel a bit cheeky posting. But a frequent and important issue and one I do confess o feeling strongly about.

No disrespect is intended at all, but in all such cases only one side of the story is presented - that is absolutely not any denigration on the OP, but sometimes seemingly minor issues actually impact the legal position etc.


Being heavily involved with the shooting side of things I am intimately familiar with being within a villified minority and having to navigate hugely complex law ( with heavy penalties ) 'simply' to progress a hobby.

Firearms, Dangerous Dogs, Knives - all the legislation for these is in a mess. It's so complex that the average user has no realistic prospect of staying absolutely 'straight'. For a honest citizen seeking to pursue a legitimate pastime to face the constant risk of administrative error creating criminal sanction is frankly intolerable. It was never the intent of parliament - so by definition the administration of the statute becomes unfit for purpose.

The Police are human beings - to err is human. They are often placed in a difficult situation. And like every other institution they have variable staff with personal prejudice just like the rest of us. That is foreseeable and it behoves legislators to produce well drafted laws.

The police deal with bad people - on a daily basis. Processing bad people is their bread and butter - and to be honest the bread and butter of said bad people. There is a strong pattern with law abiding citizens to assume that anyone involved with the police MUST be bad! It is actually extremely traumatic for an honest person to be treated with suspicion by officers - something they often seem to forget.

So our law abiding Joe/ Josephine end up in an terrible position - their peers automatically assume 'no smoke without fire', their nerves trigger all sorts of alarm bells with officers - who are constantly reviewing opportunity to build a case. Thus a vicious cycle begins.

And WE END UP BLAMING OURSELVES!

Many others have face similar difficulties and successfully improved their entire lot. They have done so - without fail - by standing united, by sticking to their rights and by challenge not co-operation.

But lets be honest - we all really prefer a quiet life. Until its our door that gets knocked, do we really want to become involved? So one by one misjustice carries on.

In the absence of a cohesive voice - and votes on the other thread suggest it wont happen. And evidence from the shooting community suggests representative bodies engender little support. So little seems set to change. A great shame.

Until then know the law and carry it with you - literally - carry a copy of the relevant statute and learn what you need to say. In the absence of knowing what to say then say one thing and one thing only - I respectfully decline to answer that question until I have the opportunity to talk with a solicitor. End of.

You will feel very uncomfortable doing it - but will ultimately enjoy far fewer sleepless nights and stressed days.

 

[Elen Sentier]

I think you will find that dave said none of those things Elen.( wildly mis-quoted iirc. )
VERY upset he was over on BB when that came out.
I would check with Dave before posting if it were me.

Best.

Chris.

I'm sorry if Dave is upset but anything in the press it's out there for everyone. I was making no judgement on what Dave was quoted as saying, nor Patrick either. People do get mis-quoted I know, I have been myself. My point, however, was that the media are interested and are sitting on the fence with what to do about knives and bushcraft.

Hopefully Dave is not upset with me ... I'm not part of BB so had no way of knowing what you tell me, nor any special reason to ask either he or Patrick about what they were said to have said. That was not part of what I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to say.

 

[Elen Sentier]

A couple of points folk have made recently caught my eye ...

"The OP's solictor, who presumably has some knowledge of the knife law, didn't think that he would win in a court case, which indicates, does it not, that the officers in question, were acting within the law."
Well, no, I wouldn't come to that conclusion necessarily! Rather I would say that the solicitor was fairly experienced in how his local courst viewed things which might not be the same as in other places. That's normal and to be expected but does not mean that the officers were acting withn the law per see.

The other point that caught my eye was ...
"But lets be honest - we all really prefer a quiet life. Until its our door that gets knocked, do we really want to become involved? So one by one misjustice carries on."
Unfortunately this is a strong human trait! I wish we could evolve out of it because it's so true that as long as we don't get involved everything stays the same or gets worse. Sigh ...

Good luck, Mouse ...

 

[Chiseller]

On the subject of media ...
Telegraph & Scouts quoting Dave Budd
Scotsman & Scouts quoting Patrick McGlinchey
Daily Wail (I mena Mail!) & Scouts quoting Dave Budd

To me they all sound as though they're sitting on the fence with regard to what attitude to take to keep their sales up ... education is really needed, but how ???

I can't see how You see, that Patrick is sitting on a fence and only interested in sales. Could you break it down for me please? Surely his quoted words are educating the uneducated and defending the justification for the use of a fixed blade knife. Patrick doesn't sell gear or promote gear or even promote his courses other than having a website and giving demonstrations when asked on the box in the corner.
I'm confused .....

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[Corso]

Dear god these threads wind me up no end

a) the op felt he had good reason to have a fixed blade

b) the officer felt he was wrong

c) the op backed down and admitted the officer was in the right (by surrendering the item)

d) they both went home for T

anything else is just opinion

can we close this yet?