Knife making?

[paul gammer]

I have gained basic understanding of:

-How forges work
-Anatomy of knives
-Woodworking
-Making Damascus steel
-Operating Grinding machines
-Operating Drills
-Operating the electric saw (the one that has a blade at the bottom that goes up down up down)

So, I've planned making myself a wide array of cutting tools and hunting gear:

-Khukri
-Arrow heads
-Throwing knives (I practice it as a sport, at home)
-Spoon knives
-Skinning knife
-Sword

Now, i've planned a year ahead, no way i'm not making myself the sword tonight, perhaps by end of this year at best.

So i've gathered already some crafting experience from many places, mainly from searching the internets since 3 years already, I know things I don't want to mention here, the list can go on forever.
but there are concepts beyond me. Say I am planning on making myself a sheet of damascus steel, how thick should it be if I want to make a knife out of it? that done, I want to trace my design onto it, how do I cut the metal? that done, i've noticed the knives get narrower towards the tip, how do I do that? does it have to be centered perfectly? what drill bits do I use for drilling the holes? can I use a grinder instead of cutting the metal?

thanks for considering my questions.

 

[slammer187]

Well first of all start slow! You're getting a bit ahead of yourself...To do some of the things you are planning to do need heavy machinery and great skill.Get yourself some stock and just go for it start out simple like using stock removal and then try some forging and just make basic things.Check out British Blades to talk to some expert but I can understand where you're coming from as I am still learning myself!

 

[Leonidas]

Hi Paul - I admire your enthusiasm.....However I would urge you to consider what you want to achieve....

Some of the things you wish to do are most certainly within the grasp of most folks, but not overnight.

Some of the questions you ask relating to Damascus steel also apply to the stock removal method for carbon steel....i.e. how thick....how do I cut it....

Recommend you pick one item...
i.e. carving a spoon or making a basic knife via stock removal and then look at some of the threads on BCUK / British Blades and some other sites out there...

If you are seeking all the possible answers for all the questions you will certainly get them but.....it may result in frustration as you try to assimilate it all....

Pick one thing and have a go....then move on to the next...you will find some things are indeed related and you might find a natural order of things as you progress.....

Just a thought

Tom

 

[paul gammer]

Yeah, I understand what you are telling me, thanks.
I am taking note of everything I find on the net, me and my girlfriend are setting up a forge from what we found on the internet (you'd be surprised, but my honey pie is more manly then most of my mates, it's like having a best friend that you could get it on with) so after some scavenging we got our hands on some fireproof mortar, pipes, a metal chair, lot's of bricks we nicked from a building site, an air intake motor sort of thing, and I am making at my sculpting class a basin for the coal, I assume we will set the forge up one of these weekends, and it will be ready by beginning of next month.
the damascus steel is no problem, I know where to get the metal for the aleation, incase the heat is insufficient i've 20 kilos of potassium nitrate to fire it up. I just need to know how to cut the metal once it's done, and how to make the grind.
edit:
oh, and I forgot to mention, I will make the handle from clay, I will sculpt it, engrave it in clay, mold it using resin and charcoal powder, I will then polish the handle, i've already lot's of designs that my friend gave me, she's also very good at drawing and designing, she proves to be very helpful indeed.

 

[slammer187]

Looks like you're on the right track but for damascus I think that you will need a power hammer and some welding equipment and as far as cutting metal an angle grinder should sort you out for rough work but also various drill bits are available if you have a drill press and belt grinders seem easy enough to make if you have the materials!

 

[paul gammer]

I will investigate further incase I can find workshops with power hammers where I live, then I can make Damascus, I don't want less then Damascus.

 

[brancho]

My advice is look HERE

 

[paul gammer]

Thank you very much

 

[Dave Budd]

you don't need power hammers or grinders to make damascus knives. If ypou did then there would've been no pattern welded blades before the late 19th century!

You do however need to know how to fire weld, forge a blade, heat treat a blade, grind/file a blde, etc, etc.

start off learning to forge a blade from a single piece of steel before thinking about a damascus one!

There is no reason why you can't make everything in you list over the next year, but it would require a great deal of natural ability and a very steep learing curve. start with the simple and work from there. If you are able to then find somebody to teach you how to do some of these things, it certainly cuts down the learning curve. It's a bi of a treck for you, but I teach many of those things

 

[paul gammer]

Ofcourse I have somebody to teach me all these things, my reliable friend the internet, who if not the internet would have taught me to make explosives? or to cook? or to make snares? the list can go on forever, I am specialized in many things others aren't my learning curve is fast, I get hold of things quickly, I ask what I need to know in forums and I experiment at home alot.
I think I have learned many things ahead, many people are amazed from my understanding of such things, I gained a level of maturity nobody else has at my age, not where I live, I found other ways to have fun without playing computers, or going out with friends, or watching TV, and I help alot more at home, since my dad has left us I am the man in charge. I am well informed in this matter, but I want to know how to cut metal, I never did it myself, usually i'd grind it to shape but it's a tedious process and takes up to several hours.

 

[Lardrover]

Borat? Is that you?

 

[Leonidas]

Borat? Is that you?

Nah it's Bruno.....

 

[slammer187]

You sound like a go getter so that will help you but I just have a few questions for you

Do you understand basic steel composition and the various different types of steel available?

Do you have a source for your steel?

Do you understand basic heat treatment and tempering of the steel you will be working with?

Do you have a source for the fuel you will be using?

Are you able to sharpen blades?

Do you understand how to make damascus?

If you are able to do all these thing already then you will be able to start on damascus but if not then I would start slow and learn these things slowly you don't want to rush them, master bladesmiths did not learn how to make quality pieces over night!

Best of luck to you mate and be sure to post your results on the forum!

 

[paul gammer]

Yeah, i´ve a source of fuel, I know how to sharpen ANYTHING, I made sharp pennies for cutting bags in the subway, get caught? then drop em and all evidence is gone, right? back to topic, I have understanding of tempering and quenching steel and the heat treatment, i´ve also got an open source for fuel, I have 2 kinds of fuels, I usually soak willow charcoal I make myself, I soak it in potassium nitrate to make it burn hotter, I have no problem in scavenging for steel either, or for iron, there´s plenty of metals that I can obtain without having to mine them myself, like I could use the steel at the scrapyard, easy as can be, now about damascus I don´t know very much, I know it´s history, it´s properties, how it looks, and I know that it´s wootz steel mixed with some other steel, like nickel, or carbon steel, they are welded into packs and forged to make them tighter, and I forgot the rest, it was handy to take note, i´ve got it written in my notebook.

 

[slammer187]

Yeah, i´ve a source of fuel, I know how to sharpen ANYTHING, I made sharp pennies for cutting bags in the subway, get caught? then drop em and all evidence is gone, right? back to topic, I have understanding of tempering and quenching steel and the heat treatment, i´ve also got an open source for fuel, I have 2 kinds of fuels, I usually soak willow charcoal I make myself, I soak it in potassium nitrate to make it burn hotter, I have no problem in scavenging for steel either, or for iron, there´s plenty of metals that I can obtain without having to mine them myself, like I could use the steel at the scrapyard, easy as can be, now about damascus I don´t know very much, I know it´s history, it´s properties, how it looks, and I know that it´s wootz steel mixed with some other steel, like nickel, or carbon steel, they are welded into packs and forged to make them tighter, and I forgot the rest, it was handy to take note, i´ve got it written in my notebook.

Well I think that you should talk to some pros but can you forge weld and are you able to obtain a flux? That's some of the stuff that you'll need to be able to do before you can start on damascus...your best bet is to probably go on a course if you can find one around where you live or travel overseas to find a good course provider :cough: Dave Budd :cough: !

 

[C_Claycomb]

Paul,

You don't tell people you are mature, you show them you are mature.

You do that by not trying to build up your image by talking about getting it on with your girl friend in the midst of a post about forging, or describing the size of your "manhood" in your profile. (I would suggest you edit that before it is edited for you).

You do it by not bragging on the internet about making home-made explosives and throwing knives all in the same thread. Nor about what sounds like stealing bags on the subway.

No one here needs to know, nor cares particularly at this time, about your family situation.

You show maturity by knowing not to start your very first thread on a subject, and in a manner, which will anger the vast majority of the other forum members and get it deleted by the moderators.

And finally, and most of all, you show wisdom beyond your years by asking simple, detailed and focused questions about specific aspects of a craft, whether it is knife making or anything else. Not by tagging seven general ones onto the end of an unrelated post.

On the matter of your question:

• Say I am planning on making myself a sheet of damascus steel, how thick should it be if I want to make a knife out of it?
  How thick do you want the knife to be? The billet, or bar (not sheet) will need to be thick enough that you can grind/file/sand it flat so as to remove any dents or pits left from forging. If you forge it really well, flat and straight, you can make the bar thinner for a given finished blade thickness. For a 4mm thick blade I would want between 5 and 6mm for starting thickness, but I am pretty rubbish at forging, so would probably end up grinding more off and would end up with a 3mm blade
  
• I want to trace my design onto it, how do I cut the metal?
  If you have not annealed the steel you are probably going to need a grinder, annealed stock can be cut with a good bi-metal hacksaw blade if you can clamp the bar down tightly enough. Most Damascus blades, when made by a blade-smith, are forged to shape rather than cut from a bar. This saves on material. Some cutting to set up the pre-form shape of the blade can be done by hot-cutting using a cold chisel. You can also use an angle grinder and cutting disk.
  
• i've noticed the knives get narrower towards the tip, how do I do that?
  You grind or file it, or you forge the taper in there when forging the blade to shape.
  
• does it have to be centered perfectly?
  The closer the better, but not as perfect as if you were working flat stock. It does need to be fairly well centred or your blade won't be straight.
  
• what drill bits do I use for drilling the holes?
  Good ones High Speed Steel jobber bits. You should be able to buy some from a hardware store that say they are for drilling metal. If you have not annealed you may find drilling difficult as the bit encounters layers of carbide. Try it and see how you get on. If you want to pin your handles, the drill will need to be bigger than the pin stock by a fraction of a millimetre. 1/4 inch pins fit in 6.4mm holes but 6.5mm would also do.
  
• can I use a grinder instead of cutting the metal?
  Yes, but it will take a while, depending on the grinder.

In the end though, this is a Bushcraft site, not a knife and sword making site.

You really want a metal working, forging site. Don Fogg's might be good, or Sword Forums, or http://www.knifenetwork.com/ They will put you right about what Damascus is and what metals to use (hint, bragging that you know, and getting it muddled, is worse than saying nothing.)

Good luck...

 

[Leonidas]

Further to Paul's queries, I feel the following additions are a post requisite...(Could'nt resist.... )

You sound like a go getter so that will help you but I just have a few questions for you

Absolutely...getter gone.....

Do you understand basic steel composition and the various different types of steel available?

and talking of compositions do you feel Bach is overrated....and that steel does indeed require Chopin....

Do you have a source for your steel?

.....and more importantly did you have sauce with your turkey?
are korean meat balls the dogs danglies and would they be better served with sweet or sour

Do you understand basic heat treatment and tempering of the steel you will be working with?

Do you consider yourself good tempered? or do you like so many of our Southern European cousins get a little heated from time to time.....? If so you may need to adjust your approach....or indeed the furnace

Do you have a source for the fuel you will be using?

Great sauce begins with a good chicken stock

Are you able to sharpen blades?

Sharpen blades what? .......and do Blade and his buddies mind.....

Do you understand how to make damascus?

Yes mascus....da making of it is so tempurmental....(Look for the hidden stuff)

If you are able to do all these thing already then you will be able to start on damascus but if not then I would start slow and learn these things slowly you don't want to rush them, master bladesmiths did not learn how to make quality pieces over night!

But if you start on Damascus beware of retribution.....seriously don't rush in....don't mess with folks who invented sharp and curved blades of layered metal.........

Best of luck to you mate and be sure to post your results on the forum!

or if you prefer....another forum......

Later's

Tom

 

[TallNHairyDave]

I sense this has the makings of a truly epic thread.

:yelrotflm

Throwing knives? Explosives? and best of all...

I know how to sharpen ANYTHING, I made sharp pennies for cutting bags in the subway, get caught? then drop em and all evidence is gone, right?.

Oh boy....

 

[Noddy]

Billy Goat for breakfast
Billy Goat for lunch
Billy Goat, Billy Goat, munch munch munch

 

[Chinkapin]

Well, Paul Gammer, you are a lot of things, but I'll tell you one thing you are not.

Focused.