I just can't do it

[AJB]

This is probably going to wind a load of old hands up, so I apologise in advance, but If you know all there is to know about sharpening and are sick of explaining it to newbies, please don’t read on.

I’ve been trying to get to grips with this subject and have read all of the nine pages of threads you get from a search, and quite frankly now I’m just confused. I spent a considerable time this weekend applying what I’ve learnt to my collection of cheep knives and have succeeded in converting them from blunt knifes to butter knives.

If anyone knows of a simple but definitive tutorial on this please could they let me know. All I have read have used so many abbreviations, are so laden with unexplained terminology or have glossed over so much assumed knowledge that they leave you with more questions than answers.

I have a couple of Opinels, which I think come with a concave grind and therefore, I think, should be sharpened on fine wet and dry on a mouse mat. Tried that! I would have to get them very hot to get them through butter now!

I have a frost Mora which, I think, comes with a Scandinavian grind and should be sharpened, I think, flat on a wet/oil stone. Now using it as a shoe horn!

And a Swiss army knife and I don’t know what the terminology for its blade is; I think that should be sharpened on a boy scout. Mine now has a new tool for rubbing against your skin, in total safety.

I have two stones one I found and one I acquired. I don’t know if they are oil or wet or what the difference is.

So please could someone tell me what stone to buy and the best place to get it from. Then please could you tell me how to use it!

However, at the moment, I’m considering chucking all my knives as I am sick of trying to get them sharp, is it really possible to shave with one of these knives?

Can anyone recommend a good pair of bush scissors? Or has anyone tried a firesteel with a battery jigsaw?

Please help

Andy

 

[Buckshot]

lol Andy
If you can get sown to the meet this weekend in Wales there will be a demo on sharpening by a past master and expert.
After watching him last year I can now get my knives to cut hairs with the grain and without touching the skin.
I think the thing I did (or at least one of them) is to push too hard on the blade to try to remove more metal. I've found that gentle pressure, enough to hold the blade in place against the stone is better than leaning on it. It may take an extra couple of strokes but you get a much better edge.

But I'm no expert on this...

It is confusing with all the various types of grind and how they should be sharpened using different equipment and techniques !!!

Cheers

Mark

 

[Thistle]

I also have trouble sharpening using stones so I went for the simple approach http://www.2xsharp.com. I have used it on my Mora, Opinel and swiss army all sharp, also used on kitchen knives and my machete. I found it on this site http://www.equipped.org/home.htm which also has a lot of other useful stuff including knife sharpening.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Andy,
It sure sounds as though you're in a bit of a fix.
I recon, firstly, ignore any variation of sharpening style, and try on one blade first.
Mount your stone (or other abrasive) on something steady.
Lubricate it with the correct fluid (try dropping a little water on the stone - if it forms into beads, that means its an oil stone and use oil to lubricate it [if you drop oil onto a water stone you'll ruin it - so keep to water first till you know what you've got]).
Gently start to rub the blade in circles, while holding it at a constant angle - whatever angle you choose will be half of the final edge that the blade will aquire, as you have to do both sides. Hence if you hold the blade at 15 degrees -you'll get a final edge angle of 30 degrees. An edge of 25 (quite fine) to 40 (tough for an axe perhaps) degrees should do for most blades you'll own.
After a few minutes, clean the blade and mark down the edge with a permanent marker pen. Whe you recommence sharpening, this helps you to see when the blade needs to be moved onto a finer stone (the exposed metal reaches right to the edge) and also helps you to maintain the same angle if you take the blade off the surface of the stone for any reason (by removing metal from the same place).
Use gradually finer abrasives on each side, until you are satisfied.
As a final step, you can "strop" the edge on a piece of leather with some polishing paste on it. There is a popular misconception that you "wave" a blade over a strop and it magically shaves hairs. In reality, hold the edge on the strop at the same angle as it was on the stone and gently draw it backwards (like spreading butter) then lift the blade off the strop - turn it over - place it back on the strop to do the other side. Ten or twenty passes should suffice.

What you have to keep in mind is that there are a given number of steel molecules along the edge which will give you the sharpness that you want - you HAVE to care for these molecules if you want the edge to be sharp.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Ogri the trog

 

[odin13]

i just bought a sharpening rod, they seem easy enogh to use, and its kept a keen edge on my mora with out much effort, i would use stones, but this works fine.
cheers,
alex

 

[Stuart]

OK lets just stick with the frost mora for now, you are correct it should be sharpened flat on a oil or water stone, lets stick with water stones.

Japanese water stones can be bought from here: http://www.axminster.co.uk/product....apanese Combination Waterstone&sfile=1&jump=0

you want the 1000/6000 Grit one, you wil also need to find yourself a good strong leather belt.

Wait for your wet stone to arrive, remove packaging, and put the stone in a tub of water and let it soak for a few minutes, then we will be ready to start.


1. Get a black permanent marker and colour in the bevel on both sides of your blade

2. Remove the stone from the tub of water and place it on a surface where it wont slip

3. Place the bevel of the blade flat on the stone with the edge of the blade facing away from you, and keeping the bevel perfectly flat on the stone and push the blade away from you as if you were trying to shave an extremely thin layer off the top of the stone. (tip. hold the blade in your fingers with your thumbs resting on the spine and your fingertips pressing down on the bevel)

4. at the end of the stoke bring the blade back to the position you started in and repeat stage 3 for 10 - 20 strokes, stop every 5 strokes and examine the side against the stone, the black marker you applied in the first step will now show you whether you have the bevel flat against the stone or not (if the bevel is flat the marker will be removed evenly, if it has been removed in one area but not another adjust the blade so the all the marker is being removed)

5. now turn the blade over and repeat steps 3 and 4 with the other side

6. once you have completed 10-20 strokes on the opposite side of the blade turn the blade over once again to the side you started with.

7. place the bevel flat against the stone once more and make one stroke on the stone, at the end of this stoke turn the blade over and make a stroke on the opposite side of the blade, continue to alternate the sides against the stone on each stoke until you have completed 10 passes across the stone.

8. Take your belt and pass the end with the holes though the buckle to form a loop, place this loop on the floor and put the instep on your foot though the loop and pull the loop tight around your foot.

9. With your left hand pull the free end of the belt tight so that you now have a taught leather belt from your foot on the ground to your left hand

10. With the knife in your right reach down (this time holding the knife by the handle) and place the blade against the belt with the edge facing away from you

11. tilt the blade forward slightly (about 20 degrees maximum) so that only half the bevel and the edge appear to be in contact with the leather

12. draw the knife towards you dragging the edge against the leather

13. When you run out of belt, lift the blade clear of the belt and turn your hand so that the knuckles face the floor and the edge of the blade faces you.

14. With the edge of the blade facing you press the blade back against the leather keeping the same angle on the edge as you did in step 11

15. Now push the blade away from you so that the spine of the blade is facing the floor and the edge is being dragged across the leather

16 when you run out of belt of the downward stroke repeat steps 10 to 15 until both sides of the blade have received 20 strokes


if you have followed the steps correctly your frost mora should now be sharp enough to shave the hair off your arm

(warning you will look odd with a bald arm, and other bushcrafters whom you are not familiar with will recognise you as a follower of the craft)

I hope this helps, its frustrating to begin with but it will come

 

[AJB]

Thanks all, but especially Stuart, that’s exactly what I was hoping for.

Questions so far:-

That is more or less what I’ve been doing, but I’ve never felt a bur on the other side of the edge, so I think my stones are pants, thanks for the recommendation. Are these better than the DC‘s & 4’s that a lot of people seem to mention?

If I sharpen my Opinels the same way (Scandinavian grind) I sharpen my Mora, won’t it knacker them?

Many thanks, I’ll wait for an answer to the stones question then I’ll get my Visa out.

Thanks again.

Andy

 

[bloodline]

I bought a little sharpener at the Kent game fair for a tenner and am surprised as it has salvaged many of my blades that I have been ruining . As a butcher I can get a usable edge but this little toy puts a very neat edge on with little effort . The info on the tool is BLADE-TECH STS NORTH WALES Tel 01492 640 664

 

[scruff]

cheers stuart

until now i'd struggled myself to use larger stones on my knives. have been using a small stone on my mora (which is currently razor sharp) by just holding it flat on the bevel and giving it a few licks.

its often confusing to read some of the sharpening tips on here as techniques differ but more over i get the sense that some guys like a nice super shinny mirror like edge rather than one which is just as sharp...but perhaps not quite so good to look at

thank you again for this clear and concise guide

andy i hope u regain ur edge soon

ps. stu do i take it u use the 'inside'/ rougher side of ur belt to strop against?

 

[C_Claycomb]

The last little bit of metal, before the edge is sharp, is always the hardest to remove. There have been times when I would have sworn that a knife had defective steel, just couldn't get it sharp, however when viewed under magnification I round that I wasn't quite getting to the very edge, that there was a tiny tiny bit of blade I hadn't reached.

The use of a permanent marker helps you spot when you aren't quite reaching the cutting edge.

The DC4 is by all accounts a great field stone. I like the DMT dimond folding hones better, but that is more a personal thing. I do however find that it is easier to sharpen stuff on large bench stones than it is on small hand held field stones, thing is, unless you have lots of stuff to sharpen, a field stone can be used at home, but bench stones are a pain to carry afield If I could only have one it would be the field stone.

For the knives that you have, a 6000 grit stone is a waste of time. If you had a finer knife, with a harder steel it might be more use, but for a Mora, opinels and a SAK you won't see a noticable difference over a 1000grit edge that you have stropped on a loaded belt, and a 6000grit that you strop. I bought a 6000grit, and the nagura stone to go with, and don't find it offers much advantage except when I am using it on fine chisels and dedicated carving tools.

Axminster sell strops (any leather will do) and the polishing paste, either a tube or a block.

Blade Tech thing is the one with two tungsten blocks that scrape metal off the length of your blade RUN AWAY! Horrible bit of kit!! dreadful thing to do to a knife, and won't sharpen a scandi at all.

You can sharpen your Opinels any way you like They are thin enough that all that is really needed is a little secondary bevel, just at the cutting edge. If you lay the entire bevel on the stone the edge will be like a razor, very fine, but very fragile.


Below are some good links for Sharpening at Bladeforums.com
http://www.bladeforums.com/features/faqs.shtml

http://www.bladeforums.com/features/faqsharp.shtml

 

[leon-1]

Thanks all, but especially Stuart, that’s exactly what I was hoping for.

Questions so far:-

That is more or less what I’ve been doing, but I’ve never felt a bur on the other side of the edge, so I think my stones are pants, thanks for the recommendation. Are these better than the DC‘s & 4’s that a lot of people seem to mention?
If I sharpen my Opinels the same way (Scandinavian grind) I sharpen my Mora, won’t it knacker them?

Many thanks, I’ll wait for an answer to the stones question then I’ll get my Visa out.

Thanks again.

Andy

Hi Andy, I know it sounds like they are the same (they are both sharpening stones), but there is a difference.

The DC4 is considerably smaller than a Japanese waterstone, it comes into its own when in the feild for touch up work and maintaning an edge, but there are many different grades for waterstones (I have seen them down at 10,000 grit and as low as 80 grit before now).

The average waterstone is too large and heavy to take into the feild so this is something that you use when at home to actually get that fine edge in the first place and they are very good at it

 

[Stuart]

I also have trouble sharpening using stones so I went for the simple approach http://www.2xsharp.com. I have used it on my Mora, Opinel and swiss army all sharp, also used on kitchen knives and my machete.

absolutly do not use the item mentioned above on anything other than knives which have a double bevel (even on a double bevel it does a very poor job).

if you have used it on your Mora and Opinel then you will have destroyed the single bevel they came with by giving it a double bevel.

ps. stu do i take it u use the 'inside'/ rougher side of ur belt to strop against?

yes, Use the inside of your belt

thanks for the recommendation. Are these better than the DC‘s & 4’s that a lot of people seem to mention?

DC4's are very good field stones but they are small and so very difficult for a beginner to learn on, you could get a DC4 for field use after you have perfect your technique and you will still be glad that you bought a set of waterstones for use at home

If I sharpen my Opinels the same way (Scandinavian grind) I sharpen my Mora, won’t it knacker them?

the same technique is used on all single flat bevel blades, if your Opinel has the same bevel geometry as the mora then sharpen it the same way

 

[AJB]

Ahhh conflicting information!!!!

Please can I have a referees ruling on the question of grit please? 1000 & 6000?

My Opinels are as they came from the factory, only blunt! So are not the same as the Mora, so what is the best way of sharpening them? Do I just sharpen the edge at an angle or do I do the whole mouse mat concaved grind thing?

Thanks for all the help.

AJB

 

[Keith_Beef]

A little point on terms being used...

As has been pointed out:

• an oil stone should be lubricated with oil,
• a water stone should be lubricated with water.

A whetstone has nothing to do with water!

Whetting is the process of sharpening. When you "whet your appetite", you are sharpening it, not adding liquid to it.

http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=575

Keith.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Ahh...my mistake

Stuart has spotted a dual grit stone, Axminster carries two dual grit water stones, a 250/1000 and a 1000/6000. In this case buying the two together saves money. £13.40 for the dual grit but £11.10 + £18.21 if you get separates.

I suppose that given the above then the 1000/6000 is a good bet. I have the 250, a 400, 800, a 1000 from Tillgear, and a 6000 and the 6000 gets the least use. However the 250 only gets used for serious re-beveling, it wears very fast and I use it mostly when making blades, not for maintenance.

For maximum versatility the 400 and 1200 separate stones are great, but it starts to get pricy LOL

Not all combi stones are so sensibly priced, I saw some Norton ones which came to about £50

 

[Thistle]

absolutly do not use the item mentioned above on anything other than knives which have a double bevel (even on a double bevel it does a very poor job).

if you have used it on your Mora and Opinel then you will have destroyed the single bevel they came with by giving it a double bevel.

Thanks Stuart, There I was happy in my ignorance . Now I have to stop and go back to the grindstone, wet stone, oil stone???????? and learn about bevels concave grinds etc. Hopefully the info on this thread will help.

Just goes to show free advice is not always good advice.

 

[AJB]

Hi Thistle,

Your heart was in the right place even if your edge wasn't

 

[flibb]

Just a suggestion but I think it would be a good idea to extract Stuarts instructions and sticky them at the top of the edged tools. Most people visiting will buy a mora to begin with and will learn to practice on it. Sugegsting the grits of waterstone to use is als a good idea as it can be rather confusing. I will be ordering the sugested stones from axminster, curently have a DC4, but have found starting shapening new blades with it is hard work due to the size, a bench stone will come in very handy

 

[Kepis]

I followed the instructions on one of RM's dvd's, seems to work for me, mind you i only have single bevel blades, bought a 1000/6000 stone from Axminster along with the rubber grip so it does not slide all over the place, i also use an 8000 grit stone to get a real polished edge, seems to work for me, the way ray demonstates the sharpening technique is great, so simple, and yes all of my blades will cut the hairs on my arm, without applying a great deal of pressure.

I have a DC3 in my pack that i use for field sharpening, once again i follow RM's instruction and also carry half a dozen small panel pins so i can keep the DC3 in place on top of a log or stump when using it

 

[spamel]

I keep all my knives sharp, I am fanatical about it. I cannot stand a blunt knife, an absolute waste of time and dangerous in my eyes. If a blade is blunt, you use more force, therefore get tired quicker. This is when you make a mistake, slip and it's all over.

The thing is, I wanted to keep my Opi 8 as it came out of the factory, but I found that the edge was so fragile that it rolled over when I was carving sticks! I put a small secondary bevel right on the edge, and after a thread either here or on BB, decided to mod it a bit. I took the upward curve towards the point on the spine off and drilled a hole for a lanyard, sharpened her up and I now have a unique model 8! It took me 5 minutes with a file to grind the spine down, and it is unmistakebly mine now.

My Opi is now a fantastic pocket knife, I carry it whenever I go out. I scared a guy at work when he asked if it was sharp....

....After shaving his arm with it, he was very impressed!