Community, attitude and respect. The three things that set us apart from the rest. Sure enough, there are shades of grey in between, but you can't generalise.
I don't understand
- Thread starter Harvestman
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Fascinating topic.
But a bit simplistic in some areas, if you don't mind me saying so!
One comment said "Simple.... look around you........ and see what is happening to mankind and the world he lives in." An in what I presumed is a derogatory manner.
So you don't want to be cured of cancer, or TB, or gangrene, or any of the thousands of other ailments modern medicine can rectify? You're comfortable with very high infant mortality rates that used to be the case? You object to being able to get on a plane and be in the Brazilian rainforest in 36 hours? Or even owning and occasionally driving a Series III Landie?
All of those benefits - and thousands more - didn't come from insights by the Yanomami Indians, or the Australian aborigines, living close to nature. THey came about as a result of civilisation and science. Sure that same civilisation brought about lots of bad things too, and it is a moot point whether we'd have been better off without it. But we are where we are, and there's no going back.
But a bit simplistic in some areas, if you don't mind me saying so!
One comment said "Simple.... look around you........ and see what is happening to mankind and the world he lives in." An in what I presumed is a derogatory manner.
So you don't want to be cured of cancer, or TB, or gangrene, or any of the thousands of other ailments modern medicine can rectify? You're comfortable with very high infant mortality rates that used to be the case? You object to being able to get on a plane and be in the Brazilian rainforest in 36 hours? Or even owning and occasionally driving a Series III Landie?
All of those benefits - and thousands more - didn't come from insights by the Yanomami Indians, or the Australian aborigines, living close to nature. THey came about as a result of civilisation and science. Sure that same civilisation brought about lots of bad things too, and it is a moot point whether we'd have been better off without it. But we are where we are, and there's no going back.
Well, I think it's the "going back" thing that most people worry about, especially if it happens kinda suddenly and not by choice.
Thats a good post. A big difference between 'us' and them is they often don't take themselves too seriously, many here do
Are you serious?? How many of "them" take themselves, their carreers, their footbasllteam, their tv-shows, their possessions and their social status not serious? hmm?
'They' may talk about the latest fashion, here people seriously talked about "Combat Sandals" last week, how ludicrous is that.
I agree. Even on this forum there are people who take certain things, which others find ludicrous, serious.
This is only a hobby, its nothing special, its not a way of life or religion, just a bunch of folk sleeping out from time to time (some here don't even do that).
WRONG! For me, and increasingly for my family too, it IS a way of life and I know there are many, who feel the same way.
So lets not go taking the pee out of Jo Public, what the heck makes you special? Nothing.
Well, there you're wrong again.
I am me. I am unique, because there's no one like me. Does that make me special? I do think so, yes
Do I take this too serious??
I think it is a matter that is taken far too lightly...
No one I know is interested in celeb culture....
...Though they may like footie, they do not inflict it on the rest of us....
...Some of them drink to excess, alas, in spite of my warnings that no one respects a drinker....
....Hardly any of them have a plasma screen....
...Many have smartphones....
...It would be nice if some of them got off the computer games sometimes....
...Though they may like footie, they do not inflict it on the rest of us....
...Some of them drink to excess, alas, in spite of my warnings that no one respects a drinker....
....Hardly any of them have a plasma screen....
...Many have smartphones....
...It would be nice if some of them got off the computer games sometimes....
Very good post Ron. I think most people in the western world are going to have to rethink their priorities in the near future whether they like it or not. We've been living on credit for far too long.
Last edited:
There's so much I don't understand about celebrity culture. What really gets to me is that many people engaged in it are utterly unaware of the negative impact it has. I read an article recently about a woman who had been shopping in Primark. Outside in the rain, her bag split open, spilling her recent purchases onto the pavement. Did she stop to pick them up? No. (Article here)
I do find that this site helps restore my faith in humanity. The amazing generosity in the Gift-it-on thread and various other competitions. The countless examples of support and offers of help. Also, the delight we all get from nature is something that has drawn us together and a spirit of stewardship and responsibility towards our impact on the natural world runs through us all, something clearly lacking in a world where so many people obsess getting hold of the 'next-big-thing' with little thought about the wider ramifications.
I do find that this site helps restore my faith in humanity. The amazing generosity in the Gift-it-on thread and various other competitions. The countless examples of support and offers of help. Also, the delight we all get from nature is something that has drawn us together and a spirit of stewardship and responsibility towards our impact on the natural world runs through us all, something clearly lacking in a world where so many people obsess getting hold of the 'next-big-thing' with little thought about the wider ramifications.
On an abstract level, you're absolutely right that over-population is infinitely more damaging to the Earth than questionable global warming (and even if global warming is in fact a fact, and is man-made, then population density is what is driving it. more people, more resources used...).
However, I'm selfish inasmuch as I have children, and if they were ill I'd take whatever medical intervention modern science can bring to the table to make them better. And despite your wishes to get back to the old days, I'd lay any odds you care to mention that you'd do the same thing if one of your children became ill. I somehow doubt you would be quite so sanguine about one of your children dying for lack of antibiotics because it weeds out the weakest................Similarly, that same civilisation provides a safety-net that would provide food and shelter for your family if - for whatever reason - you were unable to provide for them yourself.
And its that type of dichotomy that makes me question the desire to return to the "old ways", or to bemoan where civilisation has taken us. Its that same rat-race that has provided you with all the benefits of modern civilisation, and which you take full advantage of, whether it be antibiotics, anti-cancer treatments or fuel for your modest 4x4 (or the 4x4 itself!). By all means return to a simpler lifestyle and enjoy the undoubted benefits, but don't bite the hand that cradles you
Well Andy,
In a way you are right. I too have children and yes if they were seriously ill I would use modern medicine to cure them. And I admit that that is using a double standard. However, we also choose not to have any of them vaccinated, so they can/will contract a disease like meazles and all those others, which names i do not know in English. My wife refuses to be vaccinated against cervixcancer and I refuse to take medication against my cholesterol, which according to modern sience, is about 400% too high. We refuse to use modern medication if we have a homeopathical or antroposofical alternative. Unfortunately many of these will be banned by European law, so the pharmaceutical companies get their way.... but that's a different discussion all together.
A safety-net? Civilisation providing food or shelter if you can't get in yourself??
Have you ever lived on that receiving end?? Do you know what the everage pensioner, at least in this country, gets to live of??? Why do you think charity-organisations like a foodbank have become so large? Why is it possible then that ten of thousands here in Holland live in poverty?
I see what is happening to the elderly or those unable to work, due to an illness for instance. Their livingstandards are being downsized everyday, because government needs to cut budgets or insurancecompanies raise their prices again.
I have been there and I have seen things you wouldn't believe. Many chose not to see that side of our so called caring society, but lets face it; No cash, no status or rights and if you have outlived your usefullness to the society, you will be sidetracked and thrown in the bin!
I am very well aware of the fact that I too am a product of this society and that I can not unlearn, what has been tought to me all my life, in a moments notice.
I am very well aware of the fact that I too need to care for my children and thus participate in today's society and thus am part of the problem.
But I am going to minimize the damage and I am willing to learn how to do so. The first stap is to take a step back. I have chosen to work less, have less money, consume less, spend more time with my children and teach them that there are other ways. And that is the second step.....
I don't see a hand that cradles me, but more a whip that is forcing me to do what others tell me to and fit in....
In a way you are right. I too have children and yes if they were seriously ill I would use modern medicine to cure them. And I admit that that is using a double standard. However, we also choose not to have any of them vaccinated, so they can/will contract a disease like meazles and all those others, which names i do not know in English. My wife refuses to be vaccinated against cervixcancer and I refuse to take medication against my cholesterol, which according to modern sience, is about 400% too high. We refuse to use modern medication if we have a homeopathical or antroposofical alternative. Unfortunately many of these will be banned by European law, so the pharmaceutical companies get their way.... but that's a different discussion all together.
A safety-net? Civilisation providing food or shelter if you can't get in yourself??
Have you ever lived on that receiving end?? Do you know what the everage pensioner, at least in this country, gets to live of??? Why do you think charity-organisations like a foodbank have become so large? Why is it possible then that ten of thousands here in Holland live in poverty?
I see what is happening to the elderly or those unable to work, due to an illness for instance. Their livingstandards are being downsized everyday, because government needs to cut budgets or insurancecompanies raise their prices again.
I have been there and I have seen things you wouldn't believe. Many chose not to see that side of our so called caring society, but lets face it; No cash, no status or rights and if you have outlived your usefullness to the society, you will be sidetracked and thrown in the bin!
I am very well aware of the fact that I too am a product of this society and that I can not unlearn, what has been tought to me all my life, in a moments notice.
I am very well aware of the fact that I too need to care for my children and thus participate in today's society and thus am part of the problem.
But I am going to minimize the damage and I am willing to learn how to do so. The first stap is to take a step back. I have chosen to work less, have less money, consume less, spend more time with my children and teach them that there are other ways. And that is the second step.....
I don't see a hand that cradles me, but more a whip that is forcing me to do what others tell me to and fit in....
I follow Rons argument - I have avoided the children trap - never had any as there are too many people already (and who wants MY genes!) I try to simplify my life as much as possible, reduce my impact on the earth and avoid the excesses of modern living (though I do make compromises - otherwise I would not be on the PC, have a simple mobile phone or electric light in my home). I see my herbalist more than I see my GP, walk more often than drive, read more than I watch TV (though I hate missing some things like Time Team and informative, educational or ethnological type progs).
This leaves me in the minority of folk I guess and - to get back to the OP I cannot understand the consumer obsession with "reality" shows, modern jargon and much of the mindset of the current world!
This leaves me in the minority of folk I guess and - to get back to the OP I cannot understand the consumer obsession with "reality" shows, modern jargon and much of the mindset of the current world!
Seems to me that most of this celebrity culture thing is driven by the media. The media are big businesses, and they are doing whatever they can do to make money. They do what they find works best, obviously, as if they did anything else there'd be no point in their doing it; being businesses, making money is their primary objective.
I have no problem with a business wanting to make money. That's what it's for. But it's supposed to be constrained (by the people, through laws and ethics) so that we don't for example get con artists selling snake oil to your grandmother.
You don't have to sit in the public gallery at the Old Bailey to know how commonly big business gets on the wrong side of the law. Things like the interception of royal telephone calls, Raj Rajaratnam's escapades and even the collapse of Lehman Brothers are just the tip of the iceberg.
It makes me uncomfortable when big businesses do things that most would consider unethical, or things that are criminal, or indeed things that are detrimental to society. And I believe the media do all of that. When there are serious questions about the survivability of the society we now live in, I cannot see how the distractions of Coronation Street (sorry, that's about the limit of my own experience, from when I was in my twenties) can be anything other than detrimental.
There is safety in numbers. People hide in those numbers. There's nothing I can do; why don't they do something about it? But that's what (who) permits bad things to happen.
Many years ago I helped to start a company. We were successful, and that attracted the sharks. Of the people who started the company, I clung on for longest hoping to make it grow while doing the "Right Thing". In the end I failed. This really isn't the place for a rant about what happened to me when I put a stop to a criminal plot hatched by the sharks (amongst others a representative of one of the big banks, a representative of the then National Enterprise Board, the then chairman of a fairly well-known public company, a couple of professors, and last but by no means least some guys from America with Italian-sounding names). All right it was just publishing false information in a prospectus to float the company on the stock market, but it was knowingly criminal and I wouldn't stand for it. It was just an accident of legal wording that gave me the power to stop it, no superhero stuff. All I had to do was refuse to sign my name on the documents. So that's what I did. But what happened after that was a bit like a Hollywood screen play. Only it was real, and it went on for a couple of years, and it took a serious toll. So I can understand how people who have families won't take the risks that I took, and how easy that makes it for the people who have no scruples to get their way. Later, much later, I've even said that if I knew at the outset what was going to happen, I would have kept quiet and gone with the flow. Even I don't actually know if that's true or not, because I was young then, and I'm not now.
Who was it said "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"?
Even if it's just a dodgy looking cable on the vacuum cleaner, I suppose all I'm really saying is that if you think something doesn't look right, and you don't understand, say so, right out loud, like the OP in this thread.
I have no problem with a business wanting to make money. That's what it's for. But it's supposed to be constrained (by the people, through laws and ethics) so that we don't for example get con artists selling snake oil to your grandmother.
You don't have to sit in the public gallery at the Old Bailey to know how commonly big business gets on the wrong side of the law. Things like the interception of royal telephone calls, Raj Rajaratnam's escapades and even the collapse of Lehman Brothers are just the tip of the iceberg.
It makes me uncomfortable when big businesses do things that most would consider unethical, or things that are criminal, or indeed things that are detrimental to society. And I believe the media do all of that. When there are serious questions about the survivability of the society we now live in, I cannot see how the distractions of Coronation Street (sorry, that's about the limit of my own experience, from when I was in my twenties) can be anything other than detrimental.
There is safety in numbers. People hide in those numbers. There's nothing I can do; why don't they do something about it? But that's what (who) permits bad things to happen.
Many years ago I helped to start a company. We were successful, and that attracted the sharks. Of the people who started the company, I clung on for longest hoping to make it grow while doing the "Right Thing". In the end I failed. This really isn't the place for a rant about what happened to me when I put a stop to a criminal plot hatched by the sharks (amongst others a representative of one of the big banks, a representative of the then National Enterprise Board, the then chairman of a fairly well-known public company, a couple of professors, and last but by no means least some guys from America with Italian-sounding names). All right it was just publishing false information in a prospectus to float the company on the stock market, but it was knowingly criminal and I wouldn't stand for it. It was just an accident of legal wording that gave me the power to stop it, no superhero stuff. All I had to do was refuse to sign my name on the documents. So that's what I did. But what happened after that was a bit like a Hollywood screen play. Only it was real, and it went on for a couple of years, and it took a serious toll. So I can understand how people who have families won't take the risks that I took, and how easy that makes it for the people who have no scruples to get their way. Later, much later, I've even said that if I knew at the outset what was going to happen, I would have kept quiet and gone with the flow. Even I don't actually know if that's true or not, because I was young then, and I'm not now.
Who was it said "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"?
Even if it's just a dodgy looking cable on the vacuum cleaner, I suppose all I'm really saying is that if you think something doesn't look right, and you don't understand, say so, right out loud, like the OP in this thread.
Yeah great, lets have endemic polio and whooping cough again, that'd be nice. Surely infant vaccinations are a social resposnibility? If your kids are not vaccinated don't they potentialy become vectors for serious but avoidable diseases?
Yes, that is what I was going to say.
My Mother would never let me have the jabs. she didnt like needles. (Nothing about me not liking needles, you note)
When I turned 16 I jolly well made sure I had them all.
talk to your children about it. Im sure they will understand the difference between worrying about catching a nasty diesease and living a life free from concern over it.
Did your parents make sure you had your jabs?
My Mother would never let me have the jabs. she didnt like needles. (Nothing about me not liking needles, you note)
When I turned 16 I jolly well made sure I had them all.
talk to your children about it. Im sure they will understand the difference between worrying about catching a nasty diesease and living a life free from concern over it.
Did your parents make sure you had your jabs?
The very essence of your reply shows me you have not seriously studied the pro's and con's of (Dutch) government vaccinationprograms, have you?
There are studies that these programs cause more harm than good, especially with the doses and cocktails that are given at a very young age.
I believe they don't need shots again meazles, rubella, varicella, pertussis and all those once common childillnesses. If they were to get them it would only make them stronger.
Meningitis? no.... The effects on the child can be devastating, even lethal, but there is no guarantee it will keep them out of harms way.
They did have their diftery, typhoid and polio shots, though. The implications would be too severe and not just for them.... here's the double standard again...
As far as I know, I had only a small pocks vaccination.
If they choose to have these shots and/or others at a later date, it is their choice....
There are studies that these programs cause more harm than good, especially with the doses and cocktails that are given at a very young age.
I believe they don't need shots again meazles, rubella, varicella, pertussis and all those once common childillnesses. If they were to get them it would only make them stronger.
Meningitis? no.... The effects on the child can be devastating, even lethal, but there is no guarantee it will keep them out of harms way.
They did have their diftery, typhoid and polio shots, though. The implications would be too severe and not just for them.... here's the double standard again...
As far as I know, I had only a small pocks vaccination.
If they choose to have these shots and/or others at a later date, it is their choice....
Last edited:
Sorry guys and gals, didn't want to start a royal rumble! As far as vaccinations and innoculations go, I'm probably not the best person to talk to, as I've just had the full set again (yellow fever, Japanese Encephalitis, Polio, rabies, Hep A&B -the list is endless!) mainly because I've just come back from Africa and am shortly off to Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam etc - and am still on Larium to protect against malaria. Pleased that I've got decent if not complete protection against some of the biggest killers known to man? You betcha - roll on modern medicine!
However, I will totally agree with the dislike of reality shows, and the relatively modern phenomenon of exaggerated public grief about the deaths of public figures - Diana being a low-watershed mark. On the other hand, I'd sorely miss not being able to watch TV (and youtube) , as some of the stuff on there is brilliant. And, for the Luddites (sorry, couldn't resist!), there has to be something slightly bizarre about complaining about modern society through the medium of the internet
However, I will totally agree with the dislike of reality shows, and the relatively modern phenomenon of exaggerated public grief about the deaths of public figures - Diana being a low-watershed mark. On the other hand, I'd sorely miss not being able to watch TV (and youtube) , as some of the stuff on there is brilliant. And, for the Luddites (sorry, couldn't resist!), there has to be something slightly bizarre about complaining about modern society through the medium of the internet
And, for the Luddites (sorry, couldn't resist!), there has to be something slightly bizarre about complaining about modern society through the medium of the internet
I think that's a straw man argument. I'm all for modern science. It's how I make my living. And I'm very pro vaccination. I think it's foolish not to get vaccinations and not to avail yourself of modern medicine. But lets not forget the "super bugs" created from the use of modern medicines and the fact that according to the CDC "It is estimated that in 1995, nosocomial infections cost $4.5 billion and contributed to more than 88,000 deaths—one death every 6 minutes." Hospitals are great if you survive the visit. And I enjoy all my modern toys. But there is a downside to modernity and ignoring it is akin to ignoring vaccinations imo. Many people seem to have a blind faith that science and technology will solve all our problems when in fact, there are "side effects" of our wonderful successes. The pollution of the oceans is but one example. And it's a long, long list of ills associated with our "successes" that we choose to ignore precisely because we are living large and enjoying the comfort and security of the here and now. This is truly short term thinking and it is what our species is best at. Long term thinking, not so much. Saving our children is a great and noble thing but what about their children and the generations to follow? Is there no reason to think of them and not just in terms of survival, but quality of life. Is there nothing people will sacrifice for future generations? And is there no reason to think of the survival of other species on this planet? We are in a period of mass extinction and loss of biodiversity that rivals previous mass extinctions. All the recent studies so far indicate that ecosystems benefit from biodiversity and by benefit, I mean survivorship is higher in the face of environmental change. This thinking has even trickled down into agricultural practices as some farmers move away from monocultures.
Haven't most mass extinction events been followed by periods of increased biodiversity and complexity? For example, That is, the dinosaurs died leaving huge amounts of resources and niches free for small mammals and reptiles.
Agree with your comments on agriculture, min till is seen as cutting edge.
Agree with your comments on agriculture, min till is seen as cutting edge.
That's kinda like saying it's ok to die in a car accident if your organs are harvested for 10 other people. LOL!
Massive extinction sets the stage for something called ecological release and subsequent adaptive radiation.
Similar threads
