How to encourage diversity in bushcraft

[JonathanD]

Is bushcraft not free to anyone who wants to do it ?

Yeah. We seem to be discussing a problem that isn’t real, or even a problem.

So ‘woke’. As I see it, those that constantly push that agenda seem to be creating even more resentment and creating a bigger rift. It’s more destructive than the actual problem it wants to address.

This is the first time on any platform I’ve not seen a degeneration in the conversation on this topic. That says a lot for the people on this forum.

 

[Souledman]

I’ve found everyone here very polite, welcoming and accepting. Lots of folk go out of their way to help out folk who are new, starting out or just trying to get ahead. No one really cares where anyone comes from or background in that regard. I’ve not seen anyone being prejudiced or bigoted. That pretty much covers being woke I think.

 

[JonathanD]

Exactly. No one would bat an eyelid here. Anyone interested in this subject and that looks after nature is a top person in my book. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

 

[CLEM]

Yeah. We seem to be discussing a problem that isn’t real, or even a problem.

So ‘woke’. As I see it, those that constantly push that agenda seem to be creating even more resentment and creating a bigger rift. It’s more destructive than the actual problem it wants to address.

This is the first time on any platform I’ve not seen a degeneration in the conversation on this topic. That says a lot for the people on this forum.

That’s because largely it’s not really about the alleged problem but rather it’s about those wokeist doing the pushing

 

[Tengu]

I did read the article & then decided to do a little research. I read a report conducted by Natural England on black, ethnic minorities access to nature. The factors that affect access to the natural environment of ethnic minorities communities include economic circumstances, language barriers, poor access to information & lack of transport. The conclusion of the report was that better links should be established within ethnic minority communities to help promote these areas & to help tackle the factors.

Which reminds me of a favourite book of mine, `Island Going` by Atkinson, 1930s but recently reprinted.

Its about a couple of Oxford students who want to meet some unusual birds; they choose Leaches Fork Tailed Petrel, about as difficult to observe bird as you might desire.

They are on a shoestring, Finlay (Who otherwise might have been a fantastic contact) doesn't speak much English and they no Gaelic, getting information requires a lot of letter writing and frustration.

And lets not laugh too much at the scrapyard car and the near dead boat...nor the seasickness...

Needless to say they overcome all these barriers...or is that simply what they desired? Adventures?

They asked for an unknown and remote bird, after all.

It would be a crying shame if this amusing and uplifting account of Ornithological derring-do was dismissed because the Protagonists were young white men studying at Oxford...

 

[Silverclaws2]

I have suffered from a lot of sexism in my work over the years, particularly when I worked in forestry. So many stories, it's hard to pick one, but the one that made me angry was after getting my city and guilds, i applied for a job at a particular place.
Not only did they get my name completely wrong, but i was told that if i did a secretarial course aswell, i could apply for a job in the office!
I had not spent my time putting up with all the sexist attempts at making me fail and give up, and overcoming them, often going home in tears, (i was the first woman to take the course at that training establishment) to end up in an office!
I have a hundred stories about how "this job was not for women"
My best moment though gave me great satisfaction.
The land rover we used for transport had broken down, all the lads were crowded under the bonnet trying to sort the problem with no luck, and I was left to just sit there.
Listening to them wondering why no fuel was entering the carb, my brain started working and I said check the fuel line. I was told to shut up as they knew what they were doing.
Well I watched them struggle for ages, as the fuel ran out of the tank under the vehicle. The fuel pipe had come away from the tank and it was leaking all over the floor, they were too engrossed to notice.
So I got underneath and fixed it back on, and said try it now. After a few minutes it burst into life. What did you do they all asked incredulously.
So i told them, and showed them the fuel puddle. They were all very abashed and i got grief all day because I'd solved their problem so easily.
I can tell stories till the cows come home, from the petty hiding of boots to my reliant being put in a ditch for a laugh.
But I got through, and still love the woods,... even if my opinion of some particular men is somewhat tarnished!
I take everyone as they come and dont pre judge. When it's happened to you, it makes you think twice. If you've sailed through life with non of this sort of thing happening to you, it's easy to ignore it. Hence now all this soul searching about how to be inclusive.
One should not even need to ask . Sadly many are now having to do so because they realy never had a reason to consider it before, and are at a loss.

When it's happened to you, it makes you think twice. If you've sailed through life with non of this sort of thing happening to you, it's easy to ignore it.

I wholly agree for though I am not female I have been one of those people that through the course of my life has taken the claim of '' Equal Opportunities '' and '' Open to All '' literally, to expect it where it has been promoted to to have been sorely disappointed when I discovered the reality of the assertion and I have sadly found plenty of that to consider the claim of ''Equal Opportunities '' can be an ideal, perhaps a fiction or worse a ruse and a ruse to keep up appearances to access some kind of advantage.

Where to consider of my experiences, one can go one of two ways, one can take it to heart to self limit or one can develop a rhino hide and battle on, to think women develop rhino hides because they have to. Whereas those that come from a male perspective might self limit to not even try what stereotypically feminine might appeal to them through the expectation of rejection, unless they have my kind of mind that eventually learns through experience.

 

[Silverclaws2]

And that 50 / 50 split tends to ignore the less than desirable jobs.

Construction site labourers.
Sewage workers.
Road Layers.
Dustbin men ( Sanitation Operatives )
Abattoir Workers.

Its either a case of:-

Equal Opportunities - you make YOUR choice and follow it accordingly

Or

Equal Outcomes - Some one ELSE makes the decision to fill some quota and you get placed into a role.

I used to assist a female site engineer and she had no problem working in live running sewers, nor carrying her own tools up and down ladders, and access shafts. I also used to work with female aircraft engineers and the best company I ever worked for, a small plant hire and repair outfit was run by women, all of them were PASMA qualified and one of them had a 360 tracked excavator ticket.

 

[Tiley]

First of all, I'd like to thank all the contributors to this thread for their insight and thoughts. It has been a really refreshing education about us, as a community, and our shared passion or interest.

I believe that bushcraft is one of those 'quiet' activities/interests, that thrives on gentle introductions, followed by support and encouragement - all of which, it seems, pays no heed to race, creed or colour. But we are engaged in an esoteric activity in which we apparently often forego the comforts of twenty-first century living to seek out something more primitive, quieter and more elemental. Should it come as a surprise that we are often met with the rather-you-than-me-mate reaction? No. And, in many ways, that is part of bushcraft's attraction.

To become guilt-ridden and 'woke' about a perceived lack of inclusion would be wrong. The best approach, surely, is to remain entirely open and welcoming to anyone who has even a passing interest in what, for us, is a wonderfully fulfilling pastime.

Richard

 

[Buckshot]

This is the first time on any platform I’ve not seen a degeneration in the conversation on this topic. That says a lot for the people on this forum.

Totally agree and a credit to all those who posted (and those who didn't).
Many thanks

 

[Silverclaws2]

Getting closer to the issue here. Exclusion doesn't necessarily take the form of an outright prohibition or someone saying directly to someone else 'we don't want your sort round here'.

Spend a second wondering how a young urban black man, brought up among the prejudices he has been would view his chances of not being reported to and chased down by cops if he was seen hiking about country lanes with a rucksack or wildcamping?

There's a lot to this, and our individual stories of how we came to our relationships with the land are long. Though I'd say that I am nearly 60, white, educated, working class ... had a few legal scrapes when I was younger and had to go to outdoor pursuits courses as a result. If I hadn't been schooled into it by those good people (and despite having ready access to the hills), I am pretty certain I wouldn't be outdoorsy.

But through not being an ethnic minority I am only guessing, but I think that guess might be a partially informed guess through what I myself feel through being a member of the gender diverse community of which you may be aware has come in for rather lot of political/media/societal scorn of late resulting in a massively increased crimes against rate. But in my case it's not out in the sticks I fear, for there I can hide, it's the towns and streets for what my appearance might attract. To say I have experienced less than deferential treatment based upon my appearance to be aware it has caused me to contract my horizons.

 

[henchy3rd]

Like it or not, the countyside isn't a

I know a little about this as I'm a site carpenter myself.
My wife til recently worked as a plumber and one of the best carpenter/joiners I know is female.
There's a massive amount of sexism in the building trades.
When I work with the female joiner I get blokes sidling up to me and asking a series of questions.
It always starts off with
"Is she your wife?" No.
"Are you seeing her?" No.
"Can she do her job?" Hell yes, better than almost any man I know although she's physically quite small and can't carry hour rated fire doors up a flight of stairs on her own. Can't say I want to do that either.
Then things take a turn for the downright weird because after finding out she's not my partner, she knows what she's doing (she was my tutor at college) then they ask...
"Is she a lesbian?" ***? Now I'm not entirely sure if they all just think that I'm so damn handsome (really, I'm pretty average) that any woman working alongside me who doesn't want to go out with me MUST be a lesbian or what the hell it is but its weird.
When I'm working with another bloke there's none of that.

Then my wife has had to put up with a fair bit of sexism as a plumber and let me tell you, its toxic.

I've worked on site with a couple of Nigerian blokes* and although nobody is racist to their face, there was a lot going on behind their backs.
The usual stuff and it seemed like everyone thought they must have lived in mud huts in Nigeria or all been phone scammers.
To their face? Well, friendly(ish) but ever so slightly uncooperative. Not always easy to really pin down as racism but if you've seen them saying something racist when the Nigerians were away then just a bit uncooperative when they're about its not hard to work out.

Pulling them up on it seems to make a bit of difference (although when confronted they start the "virtue signalling" accusations if they have no better arguments) but its slow change and having a few politicians (Farrage and Co) who make stupid comments seems to set it back a bit cos it emboldens them. "He's just saying what everyones thinking" type of stuff.


*I think Ive met about ten Nigerians in my life (Cumbria isn't exactly a melting pot of different cultures) and so far every one of them has had a great attitude and good sense of humour. I'm sure eventually I'll meet one who's an irritating pain in the neck to balance the numbers so but so far they have been people I'm happy to work alongside.

Oh and Toddy? We've all got nailguns but even then we still use a hammer a lot.
We've not forgotten how to use em just yet.

A bit off topic here but mentioned in threads.
I’m a ruffty tuffty site joiner/builder..I’ve heard it all, It’s just Tea time talk, a predominately man dominant work force looking for a reaction & a bit of banter.
If someone looks different for what ever reason & is being abused or ridiculed,I for one would warn the person responsible or tell them to go get their tools & leave.
It’s the same in all trades, some worse than others.
May I point another observation commonly made by people.
How do they know how many different cultures/ people with disabilities or looks different they have met.
I don’t.

I also have a few friends who are nurses, you can guess what’s said there?

 

[IrishmanInNY]

I'm not sure if the OP's intent is to encourage diversity in bushcraft or to simply raise the issue as to why there is so little diversity in bushcraft. Nonetheless, Bushcraft appears to be poorly defined.

If it relates to modern bushcraft, a specialised form of camping, then surely the only barriers to entry are will. The tools and equipment needed can be purchased cheaply to construct a bare minimum kit.

If one considers bushcraft as relating to primitive skills, then it already is quite diverse as many of the skills have been informed by cultures where primitive skills are still practised. Some who view bushcraft as primitive may also consider it universal or, instead, may prefer to practise skills used by their ancestors.

The question must be posed, why would someone want to increase diversity in any given field? What benefits would actually be realised by doing so?

 

[Souledman]

Encouraging diversity actually can be a really great way of broadening your horizons and learning from people who don’t share your perspective.

It’s really interesting here to hear when the Finns, Germans, First Nations, and so on pitch in on a topic, their perspectives can be so radically different from anything we would come up with.

Of course some of it doesn’t make sense in our context, but it can be helpful to understand even why something doesn’t work.

for example, a few Eastern European friends have far better mushroom ID skills than I have, because of how they were raised. They wouldn’t call that bushcraft but I learn from the nonetheless.

a lot of folk are here to learn and share, so surely widening the net to more kinds of people with different perspectives widens the learning opportunities.

 

[Silverclaws2]

I'm not sure if the OP's intent is to encourage diversity in bushcraft or to simply raise the issue as to why there is so little diversity in bushcraft. Nonetheless, Bushcraft appears to be poorly defined.

If it relates to modern bushcraft, a specialised form of camping, then surely the only barriers to entry are will. The tools and equipment needed can be purchased cheaply to construct a bare minimum kit.

If one considers bushcraft as relating to primitive skills, then it already is quite diverse as many of the skills have been informed by cultures where primitive skills are still practised. Some who view bushcraft as primitive may also consider it universal or, instead, may prefer to practise skills used by their ancestors.

The question must be posed, why would someone want to increase diversity in any given field? What benefits would actually be realised by doing so?

The question must be posed, why would someone want to increase diversity in any given field? What benefits would actually be realised by doing so?

There is a possibility diverse folk may bring new skills/knowledge to the field for a possibility also exists that groups can self limit through a lack of diversity.

 

[IrishmanInNY]

The question must be posed, why would someone want to increase diversity in any given field? What benefits would actually be realised by doing so?

There is a possibility diverse folk may bring new skills/knowledge to the field for a possibility also exists that groups can self limit through a lack of diversity.

I agree if you're talking about increasing diversity from people with knowledge or skills. Most people, including ethnic minorities, live in cities or their hinterlands and do not possess those skills. Most people do not have unique skills or knowledge in this area which is why I said that increasing diversity for diversity sake is illusory. I also don't think anyone here is advocating to limit the bushcraft "franchise".

The same issue exists in America related to the outdoors generally. Certain ethnic groups prefer some activities over others and also live in different areas which are more suited to outdoor pursuits.

 

[TeeDee]

I used to assist a female site engineer and she had no problem working in live running sewers, nor carrying her own tools up and down ladders, and access shafts. I also used to work with female aircraft engineers and the best company I ever worked for, a small plant hire and repair outfit was run by women, all of them were PASMA qualified and one of them had a 360 tracked excavator ticket.

I think you may be misreading my intention and example.

What I'm saying is that its fine to have half of a companies board of directors as females if equal outcomes is what society wants.



But that has to be extended all the way down that same company in every single department. You can't pick and choose where you have that level of equality.

Half the Secretaries to be male.
Half the maintenance team to be female
Half the canteen staff to be male.
Half the warehouse staff to female.


And thats fine. But it can't be selective.

 

[Tengu]

Diversity in heritage means the difference between getting a HLF grant and folding due to ack o funding.

(If you operate in a rural, not particularly diverse area, too bad).

 

[Erbswurst]

I don't know for sure, but regarding the forum members, there could also be a reason for low diversity here, that the word "bushcraft" is simply unknown.

I discovered that word approximately just 5 years ago!

I was researching about bivvy bags, found a video by Paul Kirtley and discovered the whole bushcraft thing in the internet.

Before I called it simply hiking and camp craft, scouting perhaps.

I don't think that everybody who likes wild camping, hiking, survival training, canoeing and fishing knows, that we nowadays suddenly call traditional camping with military surplus equipment "bushcraft".

 

[Broch]

I don't think that everybody who likes wild camping, hiking, survival training, canoeing and fishing knows, that we nowadays suddenly call traditional camping with military surplus equipment "bushcraft".

We don't! We call a wide range of skills that improve one's enjoyment and safety of being in the outdoors 'bushcraft'.

 

[Toddy]

I think the awareness that is bushcraft is that of the natural world, the potential of the resources thereof, and the lifelong enjoyment of both.

It greatly enriches my life, and I too did not know of the crafts, skills and foragings that I did in the seasonal round, as bushcraft, until I joined the forum.

It was an absolute delight to meet so many people with such a wide range of backgrounds and skills, knowledge and a mindset that was happy to quietly share all of that

I joined in 2005, and it's quite heartening to see that so many of the original members I met then are still involved, still come onto the forum, read, occasionally comment, go to the meet ups and the Moot. That the forum is still active is in itself I think one of the clearest signs that it hasn't become discouraged, or stagnant or isolationist or exclusive.
That it still attracts new folks to come and sit around the virtual campfire, enjoy the company, the conversations, is healthy.

cheers,
Toddy