How to encourage diversity in bushcraft

[Fadcode]

I went to sign up for the local Women's Institute because I wanted to learn knitting and jam making and all of that stuff ( and the other stuff not openly talked about ) but I was declined on grounds of my gender.

Didn't seem very fair tbh

You should have worn a frock,

 

[TeeDee]

You should have worn a frock,

I did. and Lippy!!!

 

[Woody girl]

I did. and Lippy!!!

View attachment 64968

No wonder you didn't get in!

 

[Woody girl]

All this woke political correctness is too much for me. Just do what you want to do, and dont worry about it, or we will all become so gender fluid that we will have no idea who is who.!

 

[Broch]

I did. and Lippy!!!

View attachment 64968

Ah, you didn't say it was my local WI - or was that one of the other members I saw going in?

 

[Billy-o]

How do ethic minorities look out in the sticks, how do ethnic minorities feel they look out in the sticks and is that perception founded or not unfairly limiting their opportunities ?

Getting closer to the issue here. Exclusion doesn't necessarily take the form of an outright prohibition or someone saying directly to someone else 'we don't want your sort round here'.

Spend a second wondering how a young urban black man, brought up among the prejudices he has been would view his chances of not being reported to and chased down by cops if he was seen hiking about country lanes with a rucksack or wildcamping?

There's a lot to this, and our individual stories of how we came to our relationships with the land are long. Though I'd say that I am nearly 60, white, educated, working class ... had a few legal scrapes when I was younger and had to go to outdoor pursuits courses as a result. If I hadn't been schooled into it by those good people (and despite having ready access to the hills), I am pretty certain I wouldn't be outdoorsy.

 

[CLEM]

Who is interested in bushcraft and a Brit but younger than 20 years, is surely a member of the boy scout association and can discuss his questions there.

German bushcraft forums usually don't have young members but otherwise there are several thousand German boy scouts. And I guess, it's exactly the same in Britain.

I think the former boy scouts discover other countries when reaching the student age, I guess they haven't so much time to play in internet forums, but already own a good equipment and have a good outdoor education. Even if generally interested in nature, they surely focus on culture in this age.

Who founded a young family hasn't time for anything else than family and career. Such people watch perhaps bushcraft videos or a good old western with John Wayne, but surely can't invest so much time that is needed if one joined such a forum.
Here even photos are pretty rare. We write here some kind of bushcraft book. But the themes are pretty special. I think it is needed to have a lot of knowledge to appreciate the threads in our forum.
What we are doing here is pretty scientific. You can study here bushcraftology, if you have the time to do it.

If I am young, want to go outdoors and haven't so much time but enough money I simply go to a shop and get the equipment there. And to be honest it doesn't really matter what people get exactly as long as they stay in relatively civilised areas.

And that's why we have here old men and a few probably unmarried men in the best years.

It's a good question, why all outdoor forums are dominated male.
The Scouts had always approximately 1/3 girls in the associations.

But I have noticed, that forums that discuss lightweight material have a higher amount of female members. Probably the women are playing in ultra light trekking forums and are less interested in bomb proof army surplus equipment?
I can imagine, that young women have fear about wild camping and prefere camping grounds. If I meet women they usually come by bike to camping grounds. Usual outdoor shops don't offer trekking equipment that's easily portable by smaller women that work in usual office jobs.. I think even if they would try it ones, they pretty soon decide, that this is too exhausting instead of asking in forums for lighter equipment. There are of course examples that show the opposite, and every female member of every Olympic team could easily carry a usual trekking equipment. But I think that any sports aren't so horrible in fashion.

I think, that women are simply less interested in camping and hiking and especially wild camping. I can't tell you if the reason is just the traditional education or if there are biological reasons.

May be that most women don't like to sit alone in the dark forest. As we know even young men ask here about the fear in the dark.

I thought about it since decades and didn't come to any convincing results.

But my impression is that on touristic camping grounds male and female are 50:50. Camping grounds are secure and people usually come by car or bicycle.

White men?

I think, that's just because here the majority is white and the bushcrafters are a very small minority. Perhaps migrants have other problems and interests.
But if I watch French bushcraft videos the makers are by far not all blond with blue eyes. There are Arabs too, or whatever.

But the access to private land isn't limited in France like in Britain. Everybody can walk in France where he wants to. And bivuoacs on state ground aren't interdicted. Perhaps that's a reason.

I confess I tire of an attitude that says this or that work/activity/sport isn't inclusive enough where the solution is 'encourage more people to do this that or the other'. If there are true barriers to participation they should be taken down, but, for example, just because 50% of the population is female doesn't mean that 50% of engineering jobs should be occupied by women. There should be as many women in engineering that want to do it (to use one example close to my experience).

It even comes down to an arrogance that suggests the activities I like doing are better than the activities that someone else likes doing and I should be persuading them to change! It's almost like a religion!

Spot on there, tiresome . Very bloody tiresome .

 

[TeeDee]

I confess I tire of an attitude that says this or that work/activity/sport isn't inclusive enough where the solution is 'encourage more people to do this that or the other'. If there are true barriers to participation they should be taken down, but, for example, just because 50% of the population is female doesn't mean that 50% of engineering jobs should be occupied by women. There should be as many women in engineering that want to do it (to use one example close to my experience).

It even comes down to an arrogance that suggests the activities I like doing are better than the activities that someone else likes doing and I should be persuading them to change! It's almost like a religion!

And that 50 / 50 split tends to ignore the less than desirable jobs.

Construction site labourers.
Sewage workers.
Road Layers.
Dustbin men ( Sanitation Operatives )
Abattoir Workers.

Its either a case of:-

Equal Opportunities - you make YOUR choice and follow it accordingly

Or

Equal Outcomes - Some one ELSE makes the decision to fill some quota and you get placed into a role.

 

[The puffin squire]

Been listening to Paul Kirtley's podcasts and episode 16 with Lisa Fenton of woodsmoke, fascinating episode and touches on "bushcraft" and what it means nowadays

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[JonathanD]

I think most people would see bushcraft as using traditional skills to chill and make things in the woods, with a bit of tacking and loads of over nighters and fires thrown in. But in reality, it’s not a simplistic label or subject such as cheese collecting, when you just go out and but different cheeses. Bushcraft is a far more complex umbrella that covers many subjects and mind sets. Too many to quantify.

 

[henchy3rd]

This is interesting.
What did i expect???
I certainly expected a minority of posts to want the countryside all to themselves.
I also expected some helpful comments of what worked in the past perhaps.

From the responses I get the feeling most people are saying it's up to the individual to find what makes them tick.
That sort of makes sense.
but in the same vein of a previous post who said white males don't have the answer perhaps we, who have already searched and found bushcraft, generally have the personality to search ourselves anyway and therefore expect others to?

What has surprised me is the general neutral or even negative tone of the posts in terms of encouragement to others.
Surprising because everyone i have met in bushcraft circles, without exception, has been welcoming and friendly to newcomers and it doesn't seem to come across in these posts.

I get the feeling people are happy where they are?

I knew I had to change as it wasn’t conductive to anyone & it was putting a strain on my life. so I offered help at a refuge for the homeless.
I was that stereo typical white man, I’m not ashamed to admit it..blinkered & naive, just the same as you get stereo typical black/brown people, men & woman, strait & gay, all walks of life.
Turns out I was the one who was different.
Times change for the better, we are closer than you think?
I’ve camped with different nationalities & we all have one thing in common over a fire.. a Smile & good company.
Ive put this hand made certificate on here, which bought me to tears when I received it..& I’m an hard faced bugger?

I have read this topic now a few times, and the one thing that does strike me, is, what exactly is "Bushcraft"? I know we had a similar thread about the meaning of "Bushcraft", I beleive that you cannot define what Bushcraft is exactly as we ll have our own opinions about it, for instance when I go out I always carry a lighter, am I cheating?, I wouldn't dream of sitting for hours carving a spoon, I'd probably die of hunger anyway...............I think it would be near impossible to find someone who did not have a skill that could be associated with "Bushcraft".

Now some people will take learning new skills a bit further, others are quite happy to only participate if forced to, eg: car breaks down, house floods, looking for the kids(tracking), etc, etc.
Some people are quite happy, watching TV, going the Pub, fishing, mountaineering, all aspects of Bushcraft, maybe not mentioned in books about bushcraft but all the same, getting away from the normality of life, and escaping for a brief time.

There are no barriers to Bushcraft at all, even the residents of London can get out into parks, woods, its surprising how much countryside there is in London, you dont have to pay for a licence, and i assume you own a pair of shoes, and a coat, and bsically you dont need anything else.
Bushcraft is not about going up to Glen Coe, nice though it is, it;s not about going to the Brecon Beacons, its all about doing something you enjoy.

I even think you can equate Knitting to Bushcraft, because you are making something, you are using your skills, that is Bushcraft..............in my opinion.

Pub, what pub..where!

 

[Fadcode]

Theres always a pub for those(hic) that need it(same again boss),(hic)

 

[demographic]

Like it or not, the countyside isn't a

And that 50 / 50 split tends to ignore the less than desirable jobs.

Construction site labourers.
Sewage workers.
Road Layers.
Dustbin men ( Sanitation Operatives )
Abattoir Workers.

Its either a case of:-

Equal Opportunities - you make YOUR choice and follow it accordingly

Or

Equal Outcomes - Some one ELSE makes the decision to fill some quota and you get placed into a role.

I know a little about this as I'm a site carpenter myself.
My wife til recently worked as a plumber and one of the best carpenter/joiners I know is female.
There's a massive amount of sexism in the building trades.
When I work with the female joiner I get blokes sidling up to me and asking a series of questions.
It always starts off with
"Is she your wife?" No.
"Are you seeing her?" No.
"Can she do her job?" Hell yes, better than almost any man I know although she's physically quite small and can't carry hour rated fire doors up a flight of stairs on her own. Can't say I want to do that either.
Then things take a turn for the downright weird because after finding out she's not my partner, she knows what she's doing (she was my tutor at college) then they ask...
"Is she a lesbian?" ***? Now I'm not entirely sure if they all just think that I'm so damn handsome (really, I'm pretty average) that any woman working alongside me who doesn't want to go out with me MUST be a lesbian or what the hell it is but its weird.
When I'm working with another bloke there's none of that.

Then my wife has had to put up with a fair bit of sexism as a plumber and let me tell you, its toxic.

I've worked on site with a couple of Nigerian blokes* and although nobody is racist to their face, there was a lot going on behind their backs.
The usual stuff and it seemed like everyone thought they must have lived in mud huts in Nigeria or all been phone scammers.
To their face? Well, friendly(ish) but ever so slightly uncooperative. Not always easy to really pin down as racism but if you've seen them saying something racist when the Nigerians were away then just a bit uncooperative when they're about its not hard to work out.

Pulling them up on it seems to make a bit of difference (although when confronted they start the "virtue signalling" accusations if they have no better arguments) but its slow change and having a few politicians (Farrage and Co) who make stupid comments seems to set it back a bit cos it emboldens them. "He's just saying what everyones thinking" type of stuff.


*I think Ive met about ten Nigerians in my life (Cumbria isn't exactly a melting pot of different cultures) and so far every one of them has had a great attitude and good sense of humour. I'm sure eventually I'll meet one who's an irritating pain in the neck to balance the numbers so but so far they have been people I'm happy to work alongside.

Oh and Toddy? We've all got nailguns but even then we still use a hammer a lot.
We've not forgotten how to use em just yet.

 

[tim_n]

Glad scouts isn't single sex anymore. Lots of girls were forced into guides who never fitted in. I've been lucky to serve in two scout troops. One where the girls came because they loved scouting and one where there was no guide group. The group where there were no guides mostly just wanted to sing and dance. They weren't interested in any of the activities put on.

The other group it didn't make a difference what sex they were, just happy to camp, do bushcraft and have fun.

Mixed scouting usually works. The girls are often better than the boys. The boys get a richer experience because of it.

I went through several different troops before mixing happened and I don't hold this odd notion that scouting was better single sex, far from it.

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[TLM]

Well that was easy, but is bushcraft woke at all? (no proper smiley found but you can guess,)

 

[MrEd]

Anyone want to join my knitting club? All are welcome, young old, male or female, ....
The point being we tend to get exclusively white women aged over 60, not because that it's a club for them alone, but its mainly the interest of that demographic.
But you'd be welcome, and plenty of tea and cakes and grannies willing to teach you a skill.
Still no takers?
So you see, not everyone will be interested in my interests, or be willing to even try them. As is their prerogative.
Just because we all find a particular activity beneficial , relaxing or fun, not everyone will, and that's fine.
Kids will enjoy messing about in the woods and learning skills, but eventualy life will take over, and though the joy of being outdoors may well stick with some, not all will carry it on in their adult lives, and that's fine too.
Live and let live, and let's not worry about being "woke" or politically correct.

What type of cake? Asking for a friend....

 

[Tengu]

Lots of girls were forced into guides who never fitted in

Yes, that was me.

The usual stuff and it seemed like everyone thought they must have lived in mud huts in Nigeria or all been phone scammers.

Where do people get those ideas? The media, that's where.

I think a lot of erroneous ideas can be easily traced....

 

[Woody girl]

Like it or not, the countyside isn't a

I know a little about this as I'm a site carpenter myself.
My wife til recently worked as a plumber and one of the best carpenter/joiners I know is female.
There's a massive amount of sexism in the building trades.
When I work with the female joiner I get blokes sidling up to me and asking a series of questions.
It always starts off with
"Is she your wife?" No.
"Are you seeing her?" No.
"Can she do her job?" Hell yes, better than almost any man I know although she's physically quite small and can't carry hour rated fire doors up a flight of stairs on her own. Can't say I want to do that either.
Then things take a turn for the downright weird because after finding out she's not my partner, she knows what she's doing (she was my tutor at college) then they ask...
"Is she a lesbian?" ***? Now I'm not entirely sure if they all just think that I'm so damn handsome (really, I'm pretty average) that any woman working alongside me who doesn't want to go out with me MUST be a lesbian or what the hell it is but its weird.
When I'm working with another bloke there's none of that.

Then my wife has had to put up with a fair bit of sexism as a plumber and let me tell you, its toxic.

I've worked on site with a couple of Nigerian blokes* and although nobody is racist to their face, there was a lot going on behind their backs.
The usual stuff and it seemed like everyone thought they must have lived in mud huts in Nigeria or all been phone scammers.
To their face? Well, friendly(ish) but ever so slightly uncooperative. Not always easy to really pin down as racism but if you've seen them saying something racist when the Nigerians were away then just a bit uncooperative when they're about its not hard to work out.

Pulling them up on it seems to make a bit of difference (although when confronted they start the "virtue signalling" accusations if they have no better arguments) but its slow change and having a few politicians (Farrage and Co) who make stupid comments seems to set it back a bit cos it emboldens them. "He's just saying what everyones thinking" type of stuff.


*I think Ive met about ten Nigerians in my life (Cumbria isn't exactly a melting pot of different cultures) and so far every one of them has had a great attitude and good sense of humour. I'm sure eventually I'll meet one who's an irritating pain in the neck to balance the numbers so but so far they have been people I'm happy to work alongside.

Oh and Toddy? We've all got nailguns but even then we still use a hammer a lot.
We've not forgotten how to use em just yet.

I have suffered from a lot of sexism in my work over the years, particularly when I worked in forestry. So many stories, it's hard to pick one, but the one that made me angry was after getting my city and guilds, i applied for a job at a particular place.
Not only did they get my name completely wrong, but i was told that if i did a secretarial course aswell, i could apply for a job in the office!
I had not spent my time putting up with all the sexist attempts at making me fail and give up, and overcoming them, often going home in tears, (i was the first woman to take the course at that training establishment) to end up in an office!
I have a hundred stories about how "this job was not for women"
My best moment though gave me great satisfaction.
The land rover we used for transport had broken down, all the lads were crowded under the bonnet trying to sort the problem with no luck, and I was left to just sit there.
Listening to them wondering why no fuel was entering the carb, my brain started working and I said check the fuel line. I was told to shut up as they knew what they were doing.
Well I watched them struggle for ages, as the fuel ran out of the tank under the vehicle. The fuel pipe had come away from the tank and it was leaking all over the floor, they were too engrossed to notice.
So I got underneath and fixed it back on, and said try it now. After a few minutes it burst into life. What did you do they all asked incredulously.
So i told them, and showed them the fuel puddle. They were all very abashed and i got grief all day because I'd solved their problem so easily.
I can tell stories till the cows come home, from the petty hiding of boots to my reliant being put in a ditch for a laugh.
But I got through, and still love the woods,... even if my opinion of some particular men is somewhat tarnished!
I take everyone as they come and dont pre judge. When it's happened to you, it makes you think twice. If you've sailed through life with non of this sort of thing happening to you, it's easy to ignore it. Hence now all this soul searching about how to be inclusive.
One should not even need to ask . Sadly many are now having to do so because they realy never had a reason to consider it before, and are at a loss.

 

[CLEM]

Well that was easy, but is bushcraft woke at all? (no proper smiley found but you can guess,)

God I hope not, it ruins everything it touches. It’s a mind virus, at this point I swear it’s some kind of induced psychosis infecting the soft of head and maladjusted types.
Remember if your woke then your not awake.

 

[Robbi]

Is bushcraft not free to anyone who wants to do it ?