How to encourage diversity in bushcraft

[Toddy]

Thing is though; the UK is the first Industrialised nation (arguably now the first post industrialised nation ? ) and the urban rural population divide happened very quickly here. More than that, it did so in such a way that the long hours that people spent labouring left virtually no time for countryside pursuits and little necessity for them. Factory workers no longer grew their own food, or sourced their own fuel, and seasonality was reduced to how short the days were (needed more lamp oil) or how cold it was.

That divide, when the majority of the population became urbanised, divorced most from the not only the seasonality of life but the handcrafts and skills that had developed to use the natural resources of our lands.....so bushcraft just did not exist anyway.
Previously those were simply life skills; but life changed.

When a word was needed to describe those skills, a 'one word to rule them all' kind of thing, it has ended up being bushcraft, simply because we didn't have a word for it and that one did the job.

It was in the colonies that those life skills were still necessary, so no surprise that the word came from one of them.

On that note, I loved the clarity of Richard Graves wee books, and I liked that and the detail in Mors Kochansky's too

 

[Robson Valley]

We have always gone camping. There's a camping skills set that we learned.
Shelter, fire, food, clean water, cooking. Fire starting was a campfire game. Learn to do enough to optimize your living circumstances to have a good time. Leisure time. Try cooking fish and potatoes in clay jackets in the fire. Not exactly Cordon Bleu but if you're hungry. . . . . . .

For the most part, the tutors were our parents. Farm kids in their youth and
even closer to visibly tribal life.

This continent is only 400 years up from the Stone Age. Paleolithic, Neolithic and so on. It still lends a smell of familiarity to all sorts of outdoor activities off the beaten track.

I think what it takes is some unavoidable familiarity or exposure and the curiosity will come.

 

[Fadcode]

Isn't this thread getting a little out of hand, or is it just a bit of diversity creeping in, Diversity is different views, different ways, different people, and once we start sniping at each other, well it proves that maybe we are not as diverse as we thing we are, or, are we just normal?

Going back to the original OP,s question,

We could only make Bushcraft more diverse if we were in fact discriminatory, I personally dont think we discriminate in any way, though we do have different outlooks and points of view on things, but that is not discriminatory , we are a broad church and a broad church is in itself diverse.

There are however some distinct differences in the way we approach Bushcraft ( and I use that as a general term), there are people who do Bushcraft as part of their everyday life, hunting, crop growing, nomadic lifestyle etc, and then their are the folk who do it for their leisure.
Once we accept that their are different outlooks and various ways to reach the same goal, we not only learn but we also teach at the same time, even reading books on our craft we will find different ways and suggestions on how to do things, none of them wrong, just different, that is what diversity means, opening your mind to different opinions.

I always remember when I went on a promotion board in the Civil Service I was asked , "what makes the perfect interviewer for a job vacancy", I replied blindness, and when asked to explain, I said, when I entered this room, most of you (3 of them) had made up your mind about me before i had said anything, or sat down. I then said this is normal, and we all do it. And knowing this, it is now up to me to change your minds about me.
I did get the promotion.

I suppose we all have built in safeguards, and we all probably judge people too quickly, in a forum of course we dont have this preconception of each other, because we dont see each other or hear each other, so we then have to judge each other on what we write, and the way we answer things.

Its a bit like flying on a plane, everone seems nice and friendly when in the air, as soon as the plane lands, the hostility starts, pushing their way to the carousel, into the immigration queue etc.
We are individuals that will now and again come together as a group with a common aim, and that is what diversity is all about, but we must never lose our individuality. we are what we are.

 

[Woody girl]

Nobody likes sniping.
I was sniped at, and stood my ground. I always do, it's how I cope with people who behave like that.
Sorry if anyone feels I was out of order, but I wont be put down like that by someone who doesn't know me and makes snap judgement s publicly on my abilities, and basically says what I have said is BS
I did not go into the details of exactly how I fixed it, as it would have been both boring, and irrelevant to the thread, and I assumed anyone who regularly fixes Landi's would know .
No malice or sniping intended in my reply.
Just facts.
Anyway, I'm happy to put that particular conversation to bed, as it is discordant, and nobody needs that.
Least of all me, but if anyone feels they can do a better job than me replacing a twin carb manifold on my Yamaha and rebalancing the carbs manually, please feel free to come and do it for me. It's going to kill my back, and I'd rather not do it.

 

[Van-Wild]

Isn't this thread getting a little out of hand, or is it just a bit of diversity creeping in, Diversity is different views, different ways, different people, and once we start sniping at each other, well it proves that maybe we are not as diverse as we thing we are, or, are we just normal?

Going back to the original OP,s question,

We could only make Bushcraft more diverse if we were in fact discriminatory, I personally dont think we discriminate in any way, though we do have different outlooks and points of view on things, but that is not discriminatory , we are a broad church and a broad church is in itself diverse.

There are however some distinct differences in the way we approach Bushcraft ( and I use that as a general term), there are people who do Bushcraft as part of their everyday life, hunting, crop growing, nomadic lifestyle etc, and then their are the folk who do it for their leisure.
Once we accept that their are different outlooks and various ways to reach the same goal, we not only learn but we also teach at the same time, even reading books on our craft we will find different ways and suggestions on how to do things, none of them wrong, just different, that is what diversity means, opening your mind to different opinions.

I always remember when I went on a promotion board in the Civil Service I was asked , "what makes the perfect interviewer for a job vacancy", I replied blindness, and when asked to explain, I said, when I entered this room, most of you (3 of them) had made up your mind about me before i had said anything, or sat down. I then said this is normal, and we all do it. And knowing this, it is now up to me to change your minds about me.
I did get the promotion.

I suppose we all have built in safeguards, and we all probably judge people too quickly, in a forum of course we dont have this preconception of each other, because we dont see each other or hear each other, so we then have to judge each other on what we write, and the way we answer things.

Its a bit like flying on a plane, everone seems nice and friendly when in the air, as soon as the plane lands, the hostility starts, pushing their way to the carousel, into the immigration queue etc.
We are individuals that will now and again come together as a group with a common aim, and that is what diversity is all about, but we must never lose our individuality. we are what we are.

Bang on there matey.

See, the thing about equality and diversity is that at its roots its BS and here's why......

E&D originated as a legal term in the 50s 60s and 70s. Invented by white folk when folk of race, sexual orientation, gender and disability called out those white folk for discrimination.

To show that white folk didn't discriminate in the future (there's no debate needed here to discount the discrimination that did exist before E&D), white folk invented E&D so that everyone was treated equally and stop those same white folk getting sued.

Fast forward to now, and we people identifying as eggs, toasters, trees and anything else that makes them stand out, ie be different. By having forcing E&D we force folk to be different, to create their own identity even to the extreme.

If E&D was real, if we really did live in an honest and just equal world then we wouldn't even have the word diversity in society. If (for example) gender fluid people really felt equal, then why would they identify as gender fluid? By self identifying differently, they are opposing equality ('I am different and you should meet my needs'), and by encouraging E&D white folk are only trying to protect themselves from folk who seek to use E&D for their own gains, to be different......

I call BS on E&D because it is written into legislation by white folk and abused by other folk for their own gains. It only ever causes problems (just look at this thread......).

Also, this whole thread hasn't identified something that every human over the age of 3 has, but won't admit..... Unconscious Bias. We are all at fault for that no matter what you say.

Our primary sensor is sight. We make immediate, unconscious judgement on folk before we even speak to them based on our own life experiences. (Ever said 'I don't like the look of him.....' about someone you don't even know?) Further more, because we are tribal by nature, we seek to involve others or remove folk from our personal tribe (family/group/club/team/forum, whatever) because of Unconscious Bias (ever said 'they just didn't fit in....').

Stop bickering people.

Peace.



Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

 

[MrEd]

Call it what you like, you sound just like those fellas on the course.
Yes, I left some detail out, or the post would have gone on for ever, but it's quite true.
As you were not there, I dont think you can call BS. But I'm willing to let you try and prove it.
This is typical of the attitude I had then. I did think things might have improved.
Yes I can do mechanics, I have rebuilt engines many times they worked afterwards, and I didn't have any spare bits left over either.
Basic principle, simply put,
1, Engine not firing
2, Check spark plug for spark, no spark, replace plug. If still no spark it's likely the HT lead.
3, Good spark, ? check carb,
4, No fuel comming through check fuel tank. Full of fuel, ? check fuel line.
Possible problems are blockage, pump malfunction(depending on vehicle) or disconnect.
The problem was a disconnect.
Ergo, fix that, and engine fires after pumping through some fuel and that's very simply it in a nutshell.
Basic mechanics.
And from where I was sat on the ground I could see the fuel leaking and the fuel pipe hanging down, so it wasnt a hard deduction as to the problem

I was attempting humour, not being a male chauvinist.

The humour being that any time I have had to fix my LR has fought me every step of the way, simple jobs become hard ones, knuckles get skinned, curses uttered

Lost in the written word, what would have easily been understood face to face in speech.

 

[TeeDee]

I was attempting humour, not being a male chauvinist.

Which I thought ( personally ) was quite obvious.

 

[MrEd]

Which I thought ( personally ) was quite obvious.

Yeah me to but if you are looking for something you will find it.

 

[Broch]

Call it what you like, you sound just like those fellas on the course.
Yes, I left some detail out, or the post would have gone on for ever, but it's quite true.
As you were not there, I dont think you can call BS. But I'm willing to let you try and prove it.
This is typical of the attitude I had then. I did think things might have improved.
Yes I can do mechanics, I have rebuilt engines many times they worked afterwards, and I didn't have any spare bits left over either.
Basic principle, simply put,
1, Engine not firing
2, Check spark plug for spark, no spark, replace plug. If still no spark it's likely the HT lead.
3, Good spark, ? check carb,
4, No fuel comming through check fuel tank. Full of fuel, ? check fuel line.
Possible problems are blockage, pump malfunction(depending on vehicle) or disconnect.
The problem was a disconnect.
Ergo, fix that, and engine fires after pumping through some fuel and that's very simply it in a nutshell.
Basic mechanics.
And from where I was sat on the ground I could see the fuel leaking and the fuel pipe hanging down, so it wasnt a hard deduction as to the problem

Oh dear WG, I am 100% sure MrEd was just pulling your leg; no need to get so defensive.

But, as you've brought the subject up - most ignition problems on older petrol engines are on the low-tension side, typically the points or a simple wire connection. The more usual fuelling problems on old carburetted engines are, as you say, no fuel, then water in the fuel, then dirt in a jet; rarely a blocked fuel pipe. I would expect petrol pouring out of the tank to be fairly obvious to anyone with 5 metres as you'll smell it!

However, it is true, all us Series III owners assume it's a complicated expensive problem first then start looking for the simpler ones!

 

[Broch]

Bushwacker, bushranger, bush tucker, and Skippy the bush kangaroo. I rest my case the term is Australian not native to the UK, we have no bush or outback to speak of.

Yes, sorry, lazy writing on my behalf - I should have said (as I did in my original post) that the use of the word in 'English' has been around since 1875 - Australian English that is

 

[Laurentius]

Going back to the original OP,s question,

We could only make Bushcraft more diverse if we were in fact discriminatory, I personally dont think we discriminate in any way, though we do have different outlooks and points of view on things, but that is not discriminatory , we are a broad church and a broad church is in itself diverse.

We may not discriminate per se, it seems to be more of a question of what other societal barriers might be there that put certain minorities off. I think it has been established that income is one, and to my mind one way to tackle that is to discourage the idea that you have to have gucci kit. Also the notion that wilderness is necessary to practice. We used to have a mental health group renting a few contigous plots from our allotment association where amongst other things they did a little urban "bushcraft" That group ended because they ran out of funding, however the scouts rent those plots now.

 

[Woody girl]

I was attempting humour, not being a male chauvinist.

The humour being that any time I have had to fix my LR has fought me every step of the way, simple jobs become hard ones, knuckles get skinned, curses uttered

Lost in the written word, what would have easily been understood face to face in speech.

Ah, I see, amazing how, "you are talking bs" becomes "oh I was being humourous" when picked up on what reads quite obviously as something less than humourous.
I've had that defence so many times and quite frankly, I dont believe it anymore.
At least I said sorry if anyone thought I was being snappy, but never a "sorry I obviosly upset you."
Once again it's me that's at fault for not understanding what you all see as a bit of fun with a remark that you obviosly do not understand to a woman is insulting, and putting down hard won knowledge. Exactly the attitude as has been spoken of about women plumbers earlier on, and a thin defence.
It's not my fault if you find engines difficult to work on and like to make life difficult for yourself by assuming a more complicated problem before ruling out the simple stuff.
Logic isn't just a male domain, and yes I to would have assumed that a problem such as I described would have been obvious , and it was, which was why I managed to solve it, while the lads were all clustered under the bonnet trying to solve the problem with their assumption that it was a more difficult problem, exactly as you have said.which was why I was sitting by the side of the Landi left out, rather than included , and noticed what the more "expert "chaps had not.
Now you have the point I was trying to make.
Male assumption that women cant think logically, or know how to mend engines as it's too complicated for their poor little brains, who only know about nail polish and high heeled shoes.!!!!
Then I get ..that's bs..and I'm supposed to instinctively know it's just humourous jesting!!!!!!
That's what I call unconscious bias,
Or in other words BS!
I wasnt angry before, just weary,
Now I am angry. Or more properly , I'm disappointed that once again I'm assumed to be angry when I wasnt, which does make me angry.
At least I put a smile face on my last post to signify I wasnt being angry, which seems to have gone over people's heads.
I did want to put this to bed, but no, its dragged on with platitudes to try and diffuse a conversation, which you assumed was an attack which it realy wasnt.
I make no apologies this time.
Now you can all go back to your back patting conversation about inclusion and diversity hopefully with a better understanding where some of you make mistakes .

 

[Broch]

I am truly sorry that you are upset but I think you have misread the whole thing.

If you re-read MrEd's post he was quite clearly taking the p*ss out of Land Rover owners, not women. I doubt if anyone else, male, female, other, would read the post in any other way to be honest.

By the way, some of the best engineers I worked with were female - they never complained about lack of inclusion, male orientated environments, or discrimination. In my experience people that make a career path work for them never complain about how difficult it was.

To be honest I also tire of the 'Pepper Pig' school of 'blokes are Neanderthal thickos that know nothing'; which all young boys are being bombarded with at the moment.

Now, I suspect, we've managed to turn what was a well discussed, open, inclusive, and sensible topic turn into something far less enjoyable because of a simple mis-interpretation, and, for my part in that, apologies to all.

 

[TLM]

(This is not a comment to WG's posts, just something that I remembered after reading it.)

At the uni one of the guys put out a competition that who has a girl friend that can explain how a car differential works. No one had one. It is certain that a person like that existed but she was not found. Remembered this a few years ago when I saw how Toyota's hybrid drive train works, three planetary gears systems in series between the engine and wheels. It is really not that complicated but almost impossible to explain without paper.

 

[Broch]

(This is not a comment to WG's posts, just something that I remembered after reading it.)

At the uni one of the guys put out a competition that who has a girl friend that can explain how a car differential works. No one had one. It is certain that a person like that existed but she was not found. Remembered this a few years ago when I saw how Toyota's hybrid drive train works, three planetary gears systems in series between the engine and wheels. It is really not that complicated but almost impossible to explain without paper.

I really don't think that helped at all

But, to be honest, I wouldn't mind betting that three quarters of the guys there couldn't either. I worked with a guy that lived and breathed epicyclic gearboxes; his mind worked in a completely different way to everyone else.

 

[Woody girl]

I'm no pepper pig, and I know of many women who are are darn site more neanderthal than many men I know.
What a strange idea.
This is the problem with the angst of the new woke society.
How do we work through all this?
There are as many views and ideas as there are people, and there will be confliction.
But we do need to see things through others eyes and life experiences, which isn't easy when you have not experienced certain things in certain ways.
Listening to those things from others and trying to walk in their shoes is good advice, and one I try (though inevitably dont always succeed) to follow. Nobody is perfect.
Will we ever work things out?
I realy doubt it. Opinions and views change more often than socks. As life changes , views and opinion change. We become more understanding or less, depending on the cards life dealt.
Bushcraft is getting too serious about itself, and we should just relax and enjoy it without soul searching about why we call it bushcraft, or who should be entitled to do it.
The plain truth is, it doesn't matter what we call our hobby, and anyone can do it who has a mind to.
I've half a mind to start a movement to get more men to paint their nails and wear Jimmy choo shoes to make it more inclusive, and gender neutral .
Just joking, in case anyone doesn't get it.
Funny how that idea becomes a pepper pig thing.
I wonder what wed call the opposite.
Ah yes, I know, chauvinism!

 

[TLM]

I guess I should have added that engineering students were not eligible, I really did not find any difference in girl's understanding then. A differential is actually not difficult to understand when one sees a pic of it but one has to have the curiosity to do that unless it is included in the course.

Yes, epicyclic thinking is a kind of revolving thing.

Hmmm... if I still remember about half of the men had an idea how it works.

 

[TLM]

I'm no pepper pig, and I know of many women who are are darn site more neanderthal than many men I know.

now I understand every word with at least one meaning but I have really no idea what you are saying. Sorry, could we have a fast translation for us foreigners!

 

[Broch]

Pepper Pig is a series of kid's books and a cartoon series that depicts Pepper and her mother as being clever and capable and her father and brother as being clumsy and constantly making mistakes. It is the kids' tutorial on how to be misandrist.

 

[TLM]

It is the kids' tutorial on how to be misandrist.

Got it. How wonderfully woke (as of 1970s.).