well funny you should mention.... shipman actually was a local GP of mine. Luckily not mine directly but he did kill three of my relatives. (ive a big family though and I never really met them)
How safe are women alone?
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well funny you should mention.... shipman actually was a local GP of mine. Luckily not mine directly but he did kill three of my relatives. (ive a big family though and I never really met them)
Tengu, both men and women can get attacked. But how often do men get raped?
[PDF] Rape and sexual assault of women: the extent and nature of the ...
Small search and a PFD on www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hors237.pdf
show us a rate of 61000 women per year.
And there are way more women who out of shame never report a rape.
How about taking some responsibility for your own safety and realise there are not just nice friendly bushcrafters out there? Admitted the media like to blow things up but unless you know first hand or through working with victims what it means, please please please, think before you put yourself in a possible scenario.
[PDF] Rape and sexual assault of women: the extent and nature of the ...
Small search and a PFD on www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hors237.pdf
show us a rate of 61000 women per year.
And there are way more women who out of shame never report a rape.
How about taking some responsibility for your own safety and realise there are not just nice friendly bushcrafters out there? Admitted the media like to blow things up but unless you know first hand or through working with victims what it means, please please please, think before you put yourself in a possible scenario.
robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Christy,
Just out of interest and since you clearly have experience with some very unfortunate victims of appalling crime, what proportion of those crimes were perpetrated by unknown attackers in the countryside? I am certainly not proposing anyone take unnecessary risks but I find it interesting how few folk take the time to truly assess the genuine risk and how difficult it can be at times to find objective data on these things. I tried with my several thousand lone female walkers over 10 years with no reported incidents to bring some degree of objectivity. It's so easy to create a climate of fear though in which we all stay indoors....which of course is where most violence occurs.
Robin, ofcourse most attacks occur at home.
Second place is by strangers in the street.
Last place is the countryside cos of fewer people there. Downside is that in a street or at home you can scream your lungs out and someone might hear you. Knock things over, break a window, smash a chair.. There might be help.
In the sticks, no such luck. Plus more women get murdered after a rape in the countryside cos rapists have more time. Gory detail but it kinda makes sense. No rush to be run into by passers by = more time to take your time.
It's not like the countryside is crawling with creeps out to get someone. But if one is there you (as a woman alone who is not a karate-expert) stand less of a chance to fight it off. And even a 70 year old man has more muscle power than a 30 year old woman.
I'm all in favour of empowering women so go out hiking but take the responsibility for your own safety. Let's assume a woman walks in a remote area and meets up with a person. Trusting your gut instinct is good but by the time you get a bad feeling, you are already alone with a bloke. What you gonna do, talk him out of it? Run away?
Hide behind a sheep?
I find it naive and annoying to be honest to think that no harm will come to you and it's most a media hype. Just being harrassed can be a fair trauma for a woman and disrupt life. Hopefully no woman goes out hiking alone without taking some serious safety measures and she will never have to know what it feels like to be so powerless.
Robin you said:"I tried with my several thousand lone female walkers over 10 years with no reported incidents to bring some degree of objectivity"
Most women will not tell anyone outside their immediate circle that they have been raped. Some will not even tell a partner. Some find themselves with an STD or pregnant which forces them only then to come out with it.
Chances of any woman telling a friend or walkingbuddy/coach about it is remote. Be it male or female, a lot of women will carry it with them and not speak about it readily.
Second place is by strangers in the street.
Last place is the countryside cos of fewer people there. Downside is that in a street or at home you can scream your lungs out and someone might hear you. Knock things over, break a window, smash a chair.. There might be help.
In the sticks, no such luck. Plus more women get murdered after a rape in the countryside cos rapists have more time. Gory detail but it kinda makes sense. No rush to be run into by passers by = more time to take your time.
It's not like the countryside is crawling with creeps out to get someone. But if one is there you (as a woman alone who is not a karate-expert) stand less of a chance to fight it off. And even a 70 year old man has more muscle power than a 30 year old woman.
I'm all in favour of empowering women so go out hiking but take the responsibility for your own safety. Let's assume a woman walks in a remote area and meets up with a person. Trusting your gut instinct is good but by the time you get a bad feeling, you are already alone with a bloke. What you gonna do, talk him out of it? Run away?
Hide behind a sheep?
I find it naive and annoying to be honest to think that no harm will come to you and it's most a media hype. Just being harrassed can be a fair trauma for a woman and disrupt life. Hopefully no woman goes out hiking alone without taking some serious safety measures and she will never have to know what it feels like to be so powerless.
Robin you said:"I tried with my several thousand lone female walkers over 10 years with no reported incidents to bring some degree of objectivity"
Most women will not tell anyone outside their immediate circle that they have been raped. Some will not even tell a partner. Some find themselves with an STD or pregnant which forces them only then to come out with it.
Chances of any woman telling a friend or walkingbuddy/coach about it is remote. Be it male or female, a lot of women will carry it with them and not speak about it readily.
Christy that consultation report appears to be a faction of badly complied statistics from females responding to what any competent lawyer would describe as leading questions.
61,000 rapes a year in a population of 60,000,000 people, half of whom are female, means that 1 in 500 is traumatised *every* year, from babies to grannnies......and statistically means that in the 50 years of my lifetime one tenth of all the females I know would have to have been raped.......that's just mince.
If one were to take your argument to it's logical conclusion the advice would be that women who walk or camp alone are asking for whatever befalls them, and one would then not in any way leave oneself so vulnerable: so we'd do what ? live inside the cloistered walls of a harem or a nunnery ?
Not going to happen, it's our country too.
I refuse to live in a climate of paranoia.
I like people, the vast majority I meet are just folks like everyone else, not would be assailants, and would sooner go out of their way to help than to hurt anyone.
That said, I'm not stupid and even though I know that I am more likely to be run over than I am attacked but I do consciously *be aware* of where I am, who I am with, and who is likely to be around, and that's the advice I give to my family and friends daughters.
Toddy
61,000 rapes a year in a population of 60,000,000 people, half of whom are female, means that 1 in 500 is traumatised *every* year, from babies to grannnies......and statistically means that in the 50 years of my lifetime one tenth of all the females I know would have to have been raped.......that's just mince.
If one were to take your argument to it's logical conclusion the advice would be that women who walk or camp alone are asking for whatever befalls them, and one would then not in any way leave oneself so vulnerable: so we'd do what ? live inside the cloistered walls of a harem or a nunnery ?
Not going to happen, it's our country too.
I refuse to live in a climate of paranoia.
I like people, the vast majority I meet are just folks like everyone else, not would be assailants, and would sooner go out of their way to help than to hurt anyone.
That said, I'm not stupid and even though I know that I am more likely to be run over than I am attacked but I do consciously *be aware* of where I am, who I am with, and who is likely to be around, and that's the advice I give to my family and friends daughters.
Toddy
Section 5 (or is it 7?) restricted weapon - same as hand grenades and rocket launchers. Even Jif lemon in a squeezy bottle could see you in trouble.
Crazy.
I feel the same.
Nor do I feel weaker than a 70 year old man. (even though dad can run rings around me agility wise)
Nor will I tell the tale of a male friend who was raped (and I wont say who by but maybe you can guess) and who was advised by his lawyer to `not cause trouble and it will be less traumatic for you`
(he also reassured him by telling him that his case was by no means unique)
But I do advise our male correspondents to leave the kilts at home (and the codpieces, dont forget to forget the codpieces, they are also so unstylish IMHO) lest they come to a disasrter with pradatory women.
Nor do I feel weaker than a 70 year old man. (even though dad can run rings around me agility wise)
Nor will I tell the tale of a male friend who was raped (and I wont say who by but maybe you can guess) and who was advised by his lawyer to `not cause trouble and it will be less traumatic for you`
(he also reassured him by telling him that his case was by no means unique)
But I do advise our male correspondents to leave the kilts at home (and the codpieces, dont forget to forget the codpieces, they are also so unstylish IMHO) lest they come to a disasrter with pradatory women.
Unfortunately several people I know, both male but mainly female, have been raped. None of them out in the coutryside though.
having said that...
I guess if I was a lone woman and been approached by someone(s) I felt uncomfortable
with I'd pull out a mobile phone with camera and take some nature shots that happened to include the people I felt uncomfortable with and send them to a friend, subltly ( or not depending on circumstance ) letting those around me know I had sent them. Very few people will attempt to commite a crime of such magnitude knowing they can be positively identified.
Also as Surrey Yeoman pointed out earlier, there are things that you will probably have on anyway as a hiker you that can be far more effective in a despereate defensive situation than some products of questionalble legality to carry "just in case".
I hesitate to jump in here late, especially from "across the pond" in my case the South Atlantic.
You are far more likely to meet up with someone hostile in a town than the bush. The problem being that in a town you can call for help but in a wilderness area you're pretty much on your own.
In all my years of woods roaming I have had two hostile encounters with people, once in Pennsylvania while solo hiking and once here in Brazil while checking out a coconut grove with a friend.
In PA two guys armed with knives rushed me but stopped short when they saw I was wearing a holstered handgun (perfectly legal in PA). I enjoy shooting/hunting so the handgun didn't make me feel odd. I didn't have to draw it, they tried to laugh it off as "just trying to scare you". I said someting like, "Well, it worked," and went on my way.
Up on the coast of Brazil my friend and I were apporached by two guys intent to strongarm rob us thinking we were just lost tourists who had wandered back from the beach. When they came through the bush into our clearing they saw I was holding a 14 inch machete. I had bought it that day to harvest coconuts. They calmed right down. They were drunk but not THAT drunk. I didn't have to posture or threaten and we were able to talk our way out of it.
I hate to say it but in both cases had I not been armed it would have turned out poorly. Most criminals are cowards to the core. I realize that you can't go armed in the UK but understanding how you look for a potential attackers point of view is helpful. A big sturdy walking stick is a good one to make some guy think you are able to deal with him. Mac
You are far more likely to meet up with someone hostile in a town than the bush. The problem being that in a town you can call for help but in a wilderness area you're pretty much on your own.
In all my years of woods roaming I have had two hostile encounters with people, once in Pennsylvania while solo hiking and once here in Brazil while checking out a coconut grove with a friend.
In PA two guys armed with knives rushed me but stopped short when they saw I was wearing a holstered handgun (perfectly legal in PA). I enjoy shooting/hunting so the handgun didn't make me feel odd. I didn't have to draw it, they tried to laugh it off as "just trying to scare you". I said someting like, "Well, it worked," and went on my way.
Up on the coast of Brazil my friend and I were apporached by two guys intent to strongarm rob us thinking we were just lost tourists who had wandered back from the beach. When they came through the bush into our clearing they saw I was holding a 14 inch machete. I had bought it that day to harvest coconuts. They calmed right down. They were drunk but not THAT drunk. I didn't have to posture or threaten and we were able to talk our way out of it.
I hate to say it but in both cases had I not been armed it would have turned out poorly. Most criminals are cowards to the core. I realize that you can't go armed in the UK but understanding how you look for a potential attackers point of view is helpful. A big sturdy walking stick is a good one to make some guy think you are able to deal with him. Mac
Well I've read this thread with great interest and it seems that both sides have a point. We do have to be more careful as women but I too refuse to miss out on the joys of walking/camping alone because of fear of something that will most likely never happen. I say pick your spot carefully, somewhere that you are familiar with to start with so that you feel more confident in your surroundings. Make sure you tell people where you are and stay in contact with them by mobile. I do always have a stick with me but I'm really not convinced it would do me any good!
Consider if you really need to be completely alone. I have camped with a female friend on a couple of occasions and male friends many times. If there are two of you then you won't feel scared at night but you can spend the day time wandering off doing your own thing safe in the knowledge that your friend is nearby. I have often tracked along rivers with my friend in sight but haven't spoken to each other for hours, totally absorbed in what we are doing. You can still immerse yourself in nature that way without worrying.
Basically if you already feel uncomfortable about the prospect of being alone then there is a chance that you won't be able to relax and enjoy yourself.
It is unlikely that you will be attacked in the countryside. I have lived in Cornwall for 21 years and have plenty of female friends who walk alone every day. The only attacks that I have heard about have been in towns, nightclubs etc.
I say if you feel that it is something that you really have to do then go for it but if you are happy to take a friend you'll probably enjoy yourself more!
Consider if you really need to be completely alone. I have camped with a female friend on a couple of occasions and male friends many times. If there are two of you then you won't feel scared at night but you can spend the day time wandering off doing your own thing safe in the knowledge that your friend is nearby. I have often tracked along rivers with my friend in sight but haven't spoken to each other for hours, totally absorbed in what we are doing. You can still immerse yourself in nature that way without worrying.
Basically if you already feel uncomfortable about the prospect of being alone then there is a chance that you won't be able to relax and enjoy yourself.
It is unlikely that you will be attacked in the countryside. I have lived in Cornwall for 21 years and have plenty of female friends who walk alone every day. The only attacks that I have heard about have been in towns, nightclubs etc.
I say if you feel that it is something that you really have to do then go for it but if you are happy to take a friend you'll probably enjoy yourself more!
Ah well,
fear is a wonderful thing. The first time I did a loner my imagination went wild, it got darker and the big green holly tree about 20 feet away began turning into a demon worshiper dressed in a monks cowl.... So being a brave sort I wandered over and asked it if it fancied a brew... holly trees are not great talkers but they listen well.
I would suggest finding a spot to camp out, showing a friend where you will be and giving it a trail run. In my years of wandering around on my own the worst encounter I have ever had was with a love stuck poddle.
In the end freedom comes with a consequence, we now by law use seatbelts and crash helmets. Most of us never crash or fall off bikes, its just an acknowlegement of risk. You are a more risk cooking chips in fat at your home than being out on your own.
Dont live in regret of what may ot may not have happened. Life is a very short experiance ask anyone over the age of 50.
Good luck and enjoy your desire for solitude.
Sandsnakes
See you at the moot
fear is a wonderful thing. The first time I did a loner my imagination went wild, it got darker and the big green holly tree about 20 feet away began turning into a demon worshiper dressed in a monks cowl.... So being a brave sort I wandered over and asked it if it fancied a brew... holly trees are not great talkers but they listen well.
I would suggest finding a spot to camp out, showing a friend where you will be and giving it a trail run. In my years of wandering around on my own the worst encounter I have ever had was with a love stuck poddle.
In the end freedom comes with a consequence, we now by law use seatbelts and crash helmets. Most of us never crash or fall off bikes, its just an acknowlegement of risk. You are a more risk cooking chips in fat at your home than being out on your own.
Dont live in regret of what may ot may not have happened. Life is a very short experiance ask anyone over the age of 50.
Good luck and enjoy your desire for solitude.
Sandsnakes
See you at the moot
The odds do seem to be more in your favour for avoiding problems in the countryside than in town. I don't drink much so don't spend a lot of time in pubs and don't like clubs, but even so I have found myself concerned by people I meet in towns. In the country I have yet to have an encounter where I feel uncomfortable, let alone in danger. I believe that it is easier to spot trouble and practice situational awareness away from town. There are fewer people to evaluate, less background "noise" to filter out, fewer random opportunists and greater freedom to manoeuvre.
I doubt that the consequences of being grabbed in a city park, or dragged into a side alley in town are really that much better than if you are grabbed in remote country, but the chances are higher. Don't think that crowds of people will make you safe. Have a look into bystander apathy: http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/articles/bystander-apathy.html.
If it is something that you really are concerned about, I would recommend some reading such as:
Dead or Alive: The Choice Is Yours
The Definitive Self-Protection Handbook (Summersdale Martial Arts): -
by Geoff Thompson (Author)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dead-Alive-...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209385601&sr=8-3
The best aspect of this book is that it provides case studies and interviews and emphasises the importance of being aware of your surroundings, of spotting when you are being "interviewed" prior to a crime and how to make yourself a harder target. There are other such books around. These are not martial arts books, they are self defense books. There are courses too, but that is probably overkill.
Go and enjoy the outdoors, be aware of your surroundings, work out a routine before hand, learn what some of the danger signs are, trust your gut, and tell friends where you will be and when you will be back (stick to those plans so that if there is a problem they will recongise it quickly).
I doubt that the consequences of being grabbed in a city park, or dragged into a side alley in town are really that much better than if you are grabbed in remote country, but the chances are higher. Don't think that crowds of people will make you safe. Have a look into bystander apathy: http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/articles/bystander-apathy.html.
If it is something that you really are concerned about, I would recommend some reading such as:
Dead or Alive: The Choice Is Yours
The Definitive Self-Protection Handbook (Summersdale Martial Arts): -
by Geoff Thompson (Author)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dead-Alive-...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209385601&sr=8-3
The best aspect of this book is that it provides case studies and interviews and emphasises the importance of being aware of your surroundings, of spotting when you are being "interviewed" prior to a crime and how to make yourself a harder target. There are other such books around. These are not martial arts books, they are self defense books. There are courses too, but that is probably overkill.
Go and enjoy the outdoors, be aware of your surroundings, work out a routine before hand, learn what some of the danger signs are, trust your gut, and tell friends where you will be and when you will be back (stick to those plans so that if there is a problem they will recongise it quickly).
Just to add a note of currency to this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/7366532.stm
"She said about a dozen people watched Shane struggle in the water and did not try to rescue him."
Here in Northeast Iowa and the area around me for 100 miles or so, I have only read/heard of one attack on a lone female while out camping in the countryside and/or parks. But every couple weeks there is a report of someone being attacked or harassed in one of the bigger cities or college towns in the area - sometimes while walking/jogging on the city park walking trails or late night coming back from the bars. And the same can be said of males.
So when an incident happens and is reported, it is big news and gets a lot of press coverage. Do things happen that are never reported? Very likely. But the females I know feel much more safe and comfortable out in the countryside than in town. But then, the females I know grew up farming/fishing/hunting/camping, thow knives and tomahawks for fun competition (and are darn good at it), break/train horses, do physical crafts like blacksmithing/woodcarving/leather tanning, play rugby, and will make any "attacker" pray for the cops to come save them! (and this also includes the girly girls I know) And most of the few women that have been attacked/harassed in the bigger towns end up having come from a really big city to live in or go to school in that "quaint small town". They usually say they felt "save" in that small town, and didn't watch out for themselves like they would have back in the big city.
Just a few humble thoughts/observations to share. Take them as such.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
So when an incident happens and is reported, it is big news and gets a lot of press coverage. Do things happen that are never reported? Very likely. But the females I know feel much more safe and comfortable out in the countryside than in town. But then, the females I know grew up farming/fishing/hunting/camping, thow knives and tomahawks for fun competition (and are darn good at it), break/train horses, do physical crafts like blacksmithing/woodcarving/leather tanning, play rugby, and will make any "attacker" pray for the cops to come save them! (and this also includes the girly girls I know) And most of the few women that have been attacked/harassed in the bigger towns end up having come from a really big city to live in or go to school in that "quaint small town". They usually say they felt "save" in that small town, and didn't watch out for themselves like they would have back in the big city.
Just a few humble thoughts/observations to share. Take them as such.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
I worry about my wife and daughter when they are out and about walking the dog, whatever. I feel that they are possibly at more risk in the countryside due to the fact that if a would be attacker struck, noone would be able to assist either of them, on the other hand in a city I feel that someone would at the very least call the cops if they saw a lady or a young woman being attacked in the street.
I've bought them both attack alarms yet feel these to be ineffective-how many times have you heard something screaming and not responded? Exactly my point. Recently I've seen self defence screamers with an ultraviolet reactive dye spray, so if one was used in defence it would createa screaming sound aswell identifying an attacker. The only problem is the dye is invisible unless uv light is shone over it but it lasts for a week or so. I've seen dye sprays that are bright red and visible but these have not been combined with a screamer. I think I'll buy the visible dye sprays for them both.
I've bought them both attack alarms yet feel these to be ineffective-how many times have you heard something screaming and not responded? Exactly my point. Recently I've seen self defence screamers with an ultraviolet reactive dye spray, so if one was used in defence it would createa screaming sound aswell identifying an attacker. The only problem is the dye is invisible unless uv light is shone over it but it lasts for a week or so. I've seen dye sprays that are bright red and visible but these have not been combined with a screamer. I think I'll buy the visible dye sprays for them both.
I've never worried about being out and about in the countryside by myself, and I've never had cause to worry. I don't carry anything with the idea that I might use it as a weapon if provoked.
However, I live in a city, and I've felt genuinely scared alone in the dark in town because I know that I've been followed on several occasions, and suspect I have been followed a few more times than that, once in daylight as well. Most have just stopped following me a short while after my under-threat body language kicks in, though the hairiest moment had me doubling back behind a van after having been followed extremely closely across the road. Thankfully the worst I've actually experienced was some kids throwing stones at me. None of it has stopped me going about my normal business, but I'm always aware of what's going on around me when it's the dark and I'm in town. And I'm not afraid to run if something doesn't feel right - quite a few people I've spoken to say they didn't run when they wanted to because they'd feel silly (though luckily none of them came to any harm). The people I know who have been attacked are the ones who don't look where they're going - or indeed where they've been.
I'd say don't worry about being out and about in the countryside - enjoy it. Keep an eye on anyone else if you feel you need to, but they're probably just out enjoying some themselves as well.
However, I live in a city, and I've felt genuinely scared alone in the dark in town because I know that I've been followed on several occasions, and suspect I have been followed a few more times than that, once in daylight as well. Most have just stopped following me a short while after my under-threat body language kicks in, though the hairiest moment had me doubling back behind a van after having been followed extremely closely across the road. Thankfully the worst I've actually experienced was some kids throwing stones at me. None of it has stopped me going about my normal business, but I'm always aware of what's going on around me when it's the dark and I'm in town. And I'm not afraid to run if something doesn't feel right - quite a few people I've spoken to say they didn't run when they wanted to because they'd feel silly (though luckily none of them came to any harm). The people I know who have been attacked are the ones who don't look where they're going - or indeed where they've been.
I'd say don't worry about being out and about in the countryside - enjoy it. Keep an eye on anyone else if you feel you need to, but they're probably just out enjoying some themselves as well.
I wasn't going to post on this thread as I am not 'qualified' to do so being male, but considering I'm not the biggest bloke in the world......I guess maybe a little bit relevant.
I generally feel that like many others that males or females are a lot more safe in the woods than the town or cities. To be honest when out in the woods I generally don't see anyone, if I do I find it quite annoying! (Ba humbug!) So I think it I'll take my chances in the wood rather than the pub.This doesn't mean that I don't get spooked in the wood sometimes, solo camping is defiantly an acquired taste. Be sensible, follow the comments on here from others about telling people where you are going etc and enjoy.
I think there is something lovely about being being in the woods on your own, I always see more wildlife/ deer etc and like the fact that I make the choices and dictate the pace and agenda.Hope you get out and stay safe.
Dave
I generally feel that like many others that males or females are a lot more safe in the woods than the town or cities. To be honest when out in the woods I generally don't see anyone, if I do I find it quite annoying! (Ba humbug!) So I think it I'll take my chances in the wood rather than the pub.This doesn't mean that I don't get spooked in the wood sometimes, solo camping is defiantly an acquired taste. Be sensible, follow the comments on here from others about telling people where you are going etc and enjoy.
I think there is something lovely about being being in the woods on your own, I always see more wildlife/ deer etc and like the fact that I make the choices and dictate the pace and agenda.Hope you get out and stay safe.
Dave
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