Harvesting Burrs from Trees.

[BigShot]

Hi folks. I think I might know of a fallen tree with one or two burrs on it, and I'm thinking of headling along to harvest them to carve a few bits and pieces from.

I've got a small axe (Husqvarna Hatchet - 35cm/14 inches long, about 0.6kg/1.3lbs),
A woodlore style full tang knife,
and a pretty ordinary carpenter's saw (not aggressive teeth, maybe not so hot for green wood).
I also have a small lump hammer I could probably use to drive in some wooden wedges if that's something one would use to get a burr off a tree.


A few questions...

1> Are the tools I have up to the job?
1a> If not - what would I need to get to be up to the job?
2> What methods are likely to be best?
3> Are there any safety issues I need to consider (apart from normal safety regarding the tools) - particularly to do with the tree and whatever stresses are likely to be present?


I'm aware that there's more to cutting trees than just whacking them with the right blade, but I've never cut more than small stuff so though I'd ask people who'd know more about it and might be able to advise.

Thanks folks.

 

[inthewids]

Id say a bow saw would work a lot better for you.

 

[BigShot]

Hmm - come to think of it I'm almost certain I have one of those too.
I'd completely forgotten about it until you mentioned it. I'll have a quick rummage through the shed and garage to see if I can find it.

Other than that, any tips on how to best approach removing it from the tree in the first place?

 

[Arth]

I agree with inthewids, a bow saw. Have you asked the landowner for permission to take the burrs? Is the tree completly fallen? if the tree is still snagged, one small nudge and the tree might roll onto you.

 

[Stanleythecat]

Arth is quite right, make sure the tree is resting on the floor, watch out for stablising branches that will put tension or compression in to any of the cuts you make. I would make a cut above and below the burr and then cleave the piece in two with your axe to leave one half with the burr on it.

 

[BigShot]

The tree is down in a municipal park. - It's behind a screen of trees - I've been in there before pulling up a load of nettles to try making cordage and stripping bark off the same tree - you can't see out and noone can see in so I have no real fear of sensitive non-knife people getting scared by the "axe wielding maniac".
I dunno how permission would go on that front - I might have a word with the park wardens and see what they say - I dunno really what's the best approach though.
I know I've never had the slightest trouble foraging in there before, the wardens just ask you leave some for them too.

The park was left in someone's will to "the people of" my town. The park was later transferred to a different council (or the town was, I never can remember) so my local council have no say in the matter - which is odd.
I suppose going on the will - I'm the landowner (as is everyone else in the town) - but I dunno how the powers that be would see it. Any ideas?
The tree seems completely down - but I'll be checking again when I get there.


Stanley...
Assuming the burr was on a trunk lying flat on the ground, burr facing up...
Make a vertical cut either side of the burr using a bow saw.
Split horizontally through the trunk under the burr leaving a semi-circular piece of wood connecting the two cylindrical bits either side of the burr then lifting the burr out?

It's an odd picture - from World's Strongest Man - but see the holes his hands go into? It'd leave a shape somewhat like one of those with the burr being lifted out - right?
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/558...83C3069B1CECD771BEA0F8BC02A1FA55A1E4F32AD3138

If I'm right about the burrs, they are probably on a thicker bit of trunk, might it be worth making some wedges from another wood and driving them in with a lump hammer to split the wood?

Is the poll of an axe suitable for that job either? I've heared mixed opinions on whether an axe should be used that way or not.

 

[bayleaf]

Having a professional background in forestry,I would be inclined to advise you to use a chainsaw,unless the burrs are very small (and assuming that you have some training).If the burrs are of a managable size then a bow saw is probably your only realistic choice,or possibly a coarse- cut carpentry saw.Try to avoid using any wedges,as you may end up 'pulling' the grain ,and spoiling the burr.Good luck...and take some high energy food.
Also,as some one else has mentioned,make quite sure that the tree is safe,and will not move in any way as you begin to work on it.Check above you also,for aerial hazards.

 

[BigShot]

bayleaf - thanks for that. I was hoping someone from forestry/tree surgery would respond.

No chainsaw for me I'm afraid. It'll be a while before I make that little indulgance. Of course (as is probably evident from the fact I've even posted this thread) I have no training in tree surgery or felling whatsoever.
I've got a very small amount of experience and the basic "knowledge" I've gleaned from documentaries - but I wouldn't call myself anything like qualified or experienced.

Thankfully there's nothing above the tree, it fell in a clearing so nowt but clouds above. Does rain count as an aerial hazard? Haha.

I think the burrs (if I'm even right in remembering any on that tree) are pretty small - maybe up to the size of a medicine ball or a touch larger. Nothing massive.

Would you agree with the method stanleythecat suggested?

 

[bayleaf]

Yes,that seems to be a good method,especially for small sized burrs.The other factor that will come in to it is what sort of tree it is.Species will have some bearing on how hard the job will be.Once again...good luck.

 

[BigShot]

Reading back I don't think I read stanleythecat's method correctly.

Stanley - I see now you said to cut the trunk into two pieces, one with the burr on it and the other without. Is that correct?
Looks like a lot of work.

 

[BigShot]

bayleaf - in this case, Silver (I'm pretty sure) Birch.

 

[Peter_t]

i would use a chainsaw but only if your trained to use it, second best has to be a bowsaw. burrs can start inside the trunk not just on the surface so the best way would be to cut through the trunk either side of the burrs then split off the waste wood. if the trunk is too thick to cut through you could posably cut half way through on either side of it then split out the section with your axe and wedges.

there can be many forces acting on large fallen trees. it is easy to trap your saw in a cut if you dont know what your doing, the trunk or branches could split and spring towards you under tention, large trees can role on you etc.

how big is the tree? diameter?

pete

 

[Stanleythecat]

Hi Bigshot

Yes that's what I meant, I'm sure it would be easier to cut right the way through rather than cleave in situ as somebody else said, if you don't line your cuts up you could have all sorts of issues with the fibers tearing out and releasing the bit you want. With a bow saw you'll make light work of it! two cuts, split, there's your burr, bish bash bosh!

Leo

 

[BigShot]

Well, I went to check the tree and it turns out I didn't see the burrs I though I'd seen. There's one on there, but not as big as I thought. I'll be going back for it anyway, and since the wood in the tree still seems to be in really good order I think I'll cut a few branches while I'm there.
While I was in the park I saw another couple of trees, standing (dead - no branches at all) with some much bigger burrs on them (maybe the size of a football sunk into the trunk half way or so).

I have another question now.
If possible I'm going to fell the trunk and cut the burrs off as described above, but I'm not going to do that without permission.
I'm going to have a chat with the park rangers and see about getting the permission - but if I'm told I can't fell it (maybe a low stump wouldn't be wanted in case some numpty fell over/onto it and sued) I'd like to try and harvest the burrs while it's still standing.

Can anyone sugest a way to get the burrs off without felling the tree/trunk at all?

 

[Klenchblaize]

Some of the small ones, to be found protruding from very old chestnut, will simply snap off with a good tug. I've made some cracking key fobs once they have seasoned. Pair off the gnarled bark sympathetically to ensure you preserver the unique shape then sand and finish as you wish.

Probably of little help in what you wish to achieve but may be of use to someone.

 

[robin wood]

The tree is down in a municipal park.

I suppose going on the will - I'm the landowner (as is everyone else in the town) - but I dunno how the powers that be would see it. Any ideas?

My take on it is that the landowner is undoubtedly the local council or similar, they will have a management plan for this property which will include cutting some wood and leaving some dead wood for the bugs and beasties.

If I was a ranger/warden there and came across you cutting wood and especially felling trees, dead or alive I would not be happy.

I would advise going to the rangers office, telling them you are into green wood crafts etc, telling them the sort of wood you want and almost certainly they will let you have some next time they are cutting. If they are not friendly pop along to your local tree surgeon and ask there. I would doubt that you would be doing much harm by just cutting a little but then if 50 people took the same attitude it could cause a serious problem. Most woodland managers are very happy to see the stuff they cut go to a good home but most are also very protective, that is their job.

 

[BigShot]

Robin - that makes a lot of sense, and that's a big part of the reason I don't want to do anything more than grabbing a bit of bark from fallen birch and the likes without getting permission first - otherwise I'd have been cutting the burrs yesterday.

I've had nothing but good experiences with the rangers there so far - advice about brewing beer and making wine - directions to the best places to forage elder - even a thinly veilled joking-hint about where to find "magic mushrooms" - haha. (I didn't take them up on the advice, even though I was passing and saw the things - it's not my bag)

I'll be popping into the office later today to have a word with them and see if it's ok to cut some. I really do want to start carving something this week though - so waiting for the next cut, while I'll do it, doesn't help me in the short term.

I do take the point about "if 50 people" did it, I think the same could probably be said about most of our bushcrafty stuff - certainly the hunting and foraging bits. It's fortunate that it's unlikely to get as commonplace as all that.

Thanks for the reply

 

[BigShot]

Some of the small ones, to be found protruding from very old chestnut, will simply snap off with a good tug. I've made some cracking key fobs once they have seasoned. Pair off the gnarled bark sympathetically to ensure you preserver the unique shape then sand and finish as you wish.

Probably of little help in what you wish to achieve but may be of use to someone.

I wonder, what sort of damage would that do to the tree?
Is there a way to harvest from a living tree without seriously damaging or killing it? Maybe some way to cover the removed bark, or a way to cut or something that leaves the tree healthy after.

 

[Stanleythecat]

As a countryside manager myself I wouldn't advocate the removal of a burr from a live healthy tree. Any invasive works could compromise the trees health and lead to long term problems ultimately resulting in the trees removal. As Robin suggests, tree works are occuring legitimately everyday and subsquently burrs and the like appear as a useless byproduct so there is little need to harvest from an already healthy tree.

There are a number of reasons why trees produce burrs and the way they are formed, the only one that would be reasonably easy to remove but would still cause unwanted damage would be those that appear through epicormic growth, these are anchored near the surface and are a result of the trees own physiology and genetic make up. Other burrs are more likely to be caused by fungal infection, previous trauma or damage or by gall wasps, the same family of insect that causes oak apples. These insects can cause the galls by a number of means, one by exuding their own enzyms to cause the tree to mutate or even implanting fungal spores which have the same effect.

aaaaaaanyway that is far more information than you asked for and I'm showing a slightly nerdy side! Suffice to say that burrs are made up of a mass of chaotic grain that is impossible to remove without damaging a tree.

Leo

 

[BigShot]

Nerdy maybe, but right up my alley. I love knowing why these things happen!

I'll be up to the rangers in a couple of hours and in touch with a surgeon or two after that.



So, assuming it's not ok to fell those standing dead trunks, but ok to remove the burrs from them, can anyone suggest a good way to go about it?