Goretex, as great as they say?

[peds8045]

I have goretex and hyvent jackets and they both suffer with the same problem.....i get a near constant dripping of sweat down the inside of the sleeves between the wicking layer and the inside of the waterproof outer lay, so i end up with cold sodden cuffs. Apart from this one area i am happy with the performance ot the rest of the jackets.

My main gripe is that they, the manufacturers, ALL claim waterproof and breathable properties, charge us a fortune for them, yet we still end up with wet bits. This is fine if you are in a position to dry them out, but if you are outside for extended periods of time then that may not be the case and you end up ( in my case anyway) with permanantly wet sleeves.

I hear/read a lot about ventile yet i have been put off with handing over large quantities of cash for what mind end up being another waterproof that aint!

 

[Tiley]

Goretex seems to provide a partial solution to an age old problem. Having slogged away up hills and down dales in the Alps and Greater Ranges for over twenty years, I've got through a good number of Goretex jackets and trousers/salopettes. I reckon that, at the moment, eVent is the better fabric. However, there is no ideal solution because different people get hot and sweat at different rates and at different times and, lest we forget, there are always huge holes in the garments for things like heads, arms and legs.

Ventile is pretty good but heavy and stiffens up when wet. G1000 doesn't really feature as it's not waterproof. Coated fabrics work briefly until the coating wears off. Laminates delaminate - some of them ludicrously quickly. So what's the solution? I reckon that soft shell garments are a real boon. They keep out most of the weather. are comfortable, very breathable (especially Scholler fabric ones) and quiet. If it gets really gnarly, stick on a really thin shell like an OR Zealot and keep on going.

For bushcraft, there is the added hazards of fire and prickly branches. It's then that Ventile ticks all the boxes and G1000 some of them. I suppose that one could argue that you don't get quite so wet trundling about in the woods as the trees offer a pretty high degree of cover. By the same token, the rain does seem to fall for longer in the woods!

I reckon that all fabrics have their flaws because there is no real way of mimicking the action of skin. This flaw can be minimised by really well thought out garment design - but that's a completely separate debate.

 

[John Fenna]

Well put Tiley!

 

[Templar]

Hi all,
I have used G-Tex for a long time mostly in the tropics where it is pointless wearing normal rain kit, I got around the condensation problem by unziping the jacket and just using the press studs on my jacket, no more problems...

As for leaking, check the seams, make sure you dont come into contact with fuels, oils or any thing with DEET in it and brush off dirt as much as you can, after you wash it put it in the tumble dryer on a low heat until dry, this will close up the pores again and improve the water repellency of the item, I have a Bivvy Bag and jacket that I have used for over 10 years with no leaking by following this method and have never had a problem with them, and this was whilst I was in the Military...

hope this helps..

Cheers,

Karl...

 

[Tonedef]

At one point I would have said Goretex was perfect.

however last month I treated myself to a new Berghaus Paclite to replace my 7 year plus paclite.

today I popped over to Mam Tor while it was raining, after a 20 min walk to the top inside was wet cant decide if it was condensation or not.
My norgie was dry so it's poss it was just condensation.

Now I had 7 year plus of the same type of trip in the same type of weather and my old paclite left me bone dry.

Got me wondering what changed.


Tony

 

[UKHaiku]

I've had a similar problem with my paclite - though this was after much longer exposure to the weather. Ended up being wetter inside than out once I got back to the base camp - had to turn it inside out to dry it by the fire! (Carefully I must add!). Mostly down to condensation I think, but at least some leakage too, as I was wearing wicking layers and there were a couple noticeably damper spots.. It's the only time it's caused problems like that, and I still carry it as a back-up waterproof in good weather.

For bad/cold weather, though, I've picked up a Paramo Alta II, and really loving it I must say - much more robust, and quieter, which is a real bonus.. (Plus alllll those pockets )

 

[Nathan Sturgess]

I do buy a lot of different jackets and just bought a Mountain Equipment Pro Shell jacket and it is fantastic. Very light for the protection you get. It is also quite abit more brathable than XCR was.

 

[rik_uk3]

I've had a Berghau Mera Peak for a couple of years, does a great job, keeps me dry but I do worry when near an open fire. I have a Berghaus Aqua Foil jacket which is also good but does not breath as well as Gortex. Had ventile years ago and its OK but not much good in the rain of Snowdonia, but if I could find one for about £50 I'd buy it for woodland camping and near the fire. I do fancy a wax jacket now, I keep dropping the hint on bithdays and xmas but the hint has fallen of deaf ears to date. I want one of these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Barbour-Cowen...goryZ313QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Lithril]

I think some of you guys have hit the nail on the head, you're never going to get a jacket that does everything, ideally you'd have one for each purpose. I managed to get a ME Ogre jacket (gtx) for half price and its fantastic, I've had a couple of previous one that have been pretty naf. With this I've been out for 12 hours in constant downpoor, walking setting up tents and marquis, all day without a break and I was bone dry underneath. Ok if I'm walking a distance I will sweat a bit and it won't breathe as much I'd like, but I've never been more than marginally damp. Saying that I'd not use it for bushcraft because its not designed for that purpose.

When the Ogre wears out though I'll probably give Paramo a go, but for the abuse it gets, this jacket is excellent.

 

[fishy1]

Fully agree, I was put off by the cost but was given a paramo wind stopper by my MRT its great so splashed out on some Cascada trousers after a week I went a got a spare pair and have not looked back - Hot or cold wet or dry - ima the best trousers.

Totally amazing are the cascada trousers. My only flaw is the zips, which jam occasionally which is extremely awkward when wearing gloves.

I have a paramo jacket which I use for everything, never leaks, never gets sweaty, amazing. Needs occasional reproofing to keep water beading off but that is easy to do. The cost is the only thing stopping me buying pretty much their entire range.

 

[Peter_t]

imo its good for everything exept boots. i had a pair of £180 matterhorns which leeked on me!!!
but iv got a british army bivvy bag and german army gortex jacket which are great! i dont get very hot in it when im working and trust me felling trees is reely hot work (working in the jacket not the bivvy bag lol). but its not very tough, probably why my boots failed but my gortex jacket only cost me a tenner

 

[traxsboy]

hi all worked in a outdoors shop for a lil while and found out that gore tex doesn't like grease mud muck or any thing outdoors really it clogs up to easy and leaks if you have gore tex boot the gore tex that lines the boots are prone to puncher from stones that get in there your feet pump out grease salt all of which clogs up gore tex and stops it working you have to use a mild soap on them every time you use them and get out any lil stones that get in there or you boots will become leaky and sweaty you have to have a build up of moisture before it works gore tex garments like jackets have a wax on them (often tx direct nikwax) this rubs off and the garment is less effective so you think you go to a store and you look touch and rub the jacket how may people before you have done this? loads so the jacket needs washing and reproofing before you go out in the outdoors DO NOT EVER EVER EVER wash your gore tex in detergent this strips the wax off the garment and once done is very hard to get back on you should use mild soap with out softeners (and not hand soap) like dreft or better still tech wash (no i don't work for nikwax) it has also been proven that leather lined boots and gore boots work the same i where mindel boots which are leather lined and find them a hell of allot dryer and easer to care for than gore as you don't have to was the leather as much and your feet help care and nourish the liner

Bottom line leather is the best and pig skin is even better as it is like human skin you think merral boots are cow nope there pig

 

[Surrey Yeoman]

I'm for Goretex!

I used a Berghaus Cornice, Goretex jacket for several years with no problems in all sorts of weathers. Alas I tore it on some barbed wire.

Replaced it with a Paramo Pajaro jacket based on the write ups in the press and the opinion of an apparently genuine shop assistant. For one reason or another, I didn't wear it for almost a year as whenever I was out and about I was doing things that would have ripped it to bits. Finally got the opportunity to use the Pajaro on an afternoon's walk in the Surrey Hills with the Missus. It rained hard from the point we left the car to the point we returned 5 hours later. Guess what? The Pajaro leaked like a sieve and I was wet, cold and VERY cheesed off!

Took it back to the shop as it was (just) still under gaurantee. They sent it back to Paramo who cleaned and reproofed it free of charge, but told the shop people to tell me that I needed to clean it and reproof it 3 or 4 times a year to keep it waterproof!!!!!

For goodness sake - it had been hanging up in a cupboard and that had been its first outing! So even if I don't use it I'm still supposed to reproof it every 3 or 4 months? I don't think so Pal. Not when I'm paying two-hundred and fifty quid for a jacket!

Pajaro was rapidly replaced with a Swazi "Tough Brutha," Goretex anorak which has been out in all weathers throughout this past winter and has performed faultlessly throughout.

Incidently, I also have a Mountain Range, Goretex jacket that I bought well over 10 years ago and which I use for more, "robust" activities and that's still going strong too!

GORETEX - :You_Rock_

 

[crazyclimber]

Surrey Yeoman - hey, I'm surprised about your experiences with Paramo. While out and about in the hills it's just about all I wear, especially in the winter. Mountain jacket, cascada trousers and the torres smock for stops. In my experience if it's very VERY wet you may be better off with goretex than Paramo kit, but 98% of the time in the UK I've found Paramo to be just about the ultimate compromise by getting only a bit damp in wet wet weather and not feeling like I'm wearing a bin liner in anything but that heavy rain. And no, I very rarely reproof either the jacket or the trousers.

Paramo kit probably isn't the kit for bushcrafting - being synthetic I can't imagine it liking fires - but believe me I've tried quite a few jackets on a variety of mountains and I can honestly say, with no connection whatsoever with the company, that it's the best system I've used so far.

Each to their own though, if goretex works for you then that's the main thing

Cheers! Ioan

 

[Intertidal]

Just add my 2p

I've had 3 goretex jackets over the years.

1. First generation Berghaus Mistral(? - can't quite remember). My first breathable jacket after neoprene or PU proofed trad cagouls. As I recall it was brilliant with much less condensation. However, it had a pretty hard life in the mountains and got ripped, so I replaced it with....
2. A Phoenix jacket and overtrousers (can't remember model) but it was in very tough material. Before this set suffered any abuse I was horrified one November day on a walk up to Styhead and Sprinkling Tarns. It was one of those Lakes days with driving horizontal rain. Never mind I thought, I've got new goretex waterproofs - Wrong! The rain drove straight through on my windward side - chest, thighs and legs. Not just damp but soaked through. I complained to the retailer (mail order) who passed it off on the manufacturer and basically I got nowhere (I didn't chase it up much tho' to be fair). This was replaced with ....
3. Another Berghaus set (Alpine Lite jacket and salopettes). Again, brilliant when new, breatheable (for goretex) and waterproof (Hurrah!). Sadly tho' this was not to last and as others have said - once the DWR suface treatment started to deteriorate that was the end of its waterproofness. Washing and reproofing (Nikwax or Grangers) provided temporary improvements but things were only going one way and I could not rely on the garments to keep me dry when needed most.

I've now replaced these waterproofs with a Paramo Velez Adventure Smock and Aspira salopettes (for winter) and Berghaus paclite overtrousers (Spring - Autumn).
The Paramo gear (so far) has been absolutely the best I've ever had - way more breatheable than goretex, waterproof, well designed and comfortable. But, its too warm for summer!
The (goretex) paclite trousers are also ok apart from the waterproof zips on the legs - which aren't waterproof in driving rain and have small leaks.

So, on balance, IMHO goretex stuff is OK when new(ish) (except Phoenix - now no more) but appears only as good as the DWR.
Paramo, for me, is the way ahead.

No axe to grind folks - just my experience of those products listed.

 

[Squidders]

yes and no

it's great at what it's designed for.

 

[Kerne]

I've got a goretex xcr jacket I use for winter in the mountains and a Marmot precip lightweight jacket (£40!) which gets hard use throughout the year (walking, scrambling, bushcrafting) - both work well but, as some have said, it's all about expectations. Also, Gore make the fabric, failures are often due to the garment manufacturer. What is great about goretex and its clones is its packability and weight. And, it's cheaper than Ventile!

 

[Nonsuch]

For mountains :
- I've had several Goretex jackets, from a first generation Berghaus in 1983 through to my current Mera Peak. All have performed perfectly and never got me wet - except paclite jackets which seem to leak after a while.
- I've now switched to Paramo (Taiga Fleece with hood, Green Velez Adventure Smock, Torres Oversmock) because it is just more comfortable to wear and very well-designed, and I love the way your wet hands dry out in the pockets, but the switch wasn't really because I was fed up with Goretex. By the way my female family members refuse to wear Paramo jackets because they reckon they look like a sack in them.
- I can't get on with Paramo trousers and still prefer Goretex overtrousers (despite the limited waterproofness)

For shooting / woods / fires etc
- I can second earlier comments about the Dutch army Goretex parka with cotton-type outer layer. Fantastic. Beware though - they are cut for tall skinny Dutchmen.
- Also a big fan of Ventile / SASS Oxford cotton / well-proofed gabardine. Just feels right somehow and waterproof enough unless you are out in driving rain all day with no shelter

As others have said, different tasks different jackets

 

[scallywag]

ok, but what about goretex boots? Jackets are one thing, boots are a completely differnt matter. I've been thinking about buying a pair but I'm not sure. I don't want my money to go down the drain. Any help?

 

[Sussex Man]

Gore tex and boots in my opinion are not good bed fellows, I've had 3 pairs of them and they all seem to leek the second season of wearing them. Leather is naturally waterproof if you look after it, some prefer oil based treatments, some solid wax or nikwax aquawax.
I find that as soon as goretex boots get muddy they don't breath, if you ware coarse woolen socks the membrane wares out after a while. look at Scarpa boots, lowa boots with leather linings and Lundhags.All i would highly recommend. If its VERY wet and hot Jungle boots (wellco or pro search) If its Very Very wet perhaps seal skin socks (you can wash these independently) or the famous yeti gaiters.
Don't believe the hype, in my experience gore tex is like wearing a crisp packet at below -10.

Peace from Sussex

Getting a bit damp in the outdoors is no real problem, when you stop at the end of the day get the wet kit off and the dry kit on, under the tarp ! lol.