Goretex, as great as they say?

[Don Redondo]

I've been re-reading Ranulph Fiennes book "Captain Scott", a very good read, and I'd forgotten that it was Scott who designed the wire stiffened hood used in jackets even today, and incorporated them in his ventile clothing

IIRC the teams that did the 'in the footsteps of Scott and Amundsen' prog that was on the BBC a couple of months ago rated Scotts gear [ventile and worsted/tweed I think] as being excellent for the work they were doing ie man-hauling, better even than the furs the Norweigans had. However the total converse was true when they were dog sledding, because of the limited amount of work they had to do....

 

[Charlie_Croker]

Personally i would rate Ventile as superior to Goretex, I find it a much more natural material and as weatherproof as Goretex.

By the way, I am having a clearout and have to get rid of an as new Ventile Smock jacket, Cost new was £200, sizing is XXL, it even comes with a pdf file about the original design which was used on an expedition to South Pole by Edmund Hilary.

For more details/measurements/photos please contact editor@casualculture.co.uk

 

[addyb]

I don't find Ventile to be even close as weatherproof as Gore-Tex. You just can't compare the two. I mean honestly, one fabric has a hydrostatic column resistance of 750mm, the other has a resistance of 3000mm. Don't get me wrong here, I love my Ventile more than any jacket I own. But I have to careful with it. I bet it rains in BC a lot more than than in the UK and that's probably why after a couple hours in the rain, the shoulders under my Ventile anorak become soaked. And we're talking a double layer jacket here!

However, breathability is a completely seperate matter as well and there's still no comparison. Ventile wins that round hands down.

Adam

 

[Rod]

GTX = the great marketing whitewash. Sorry can't stand it. A huge disappointment.

eVent
Paramo
Cotton
Supplex Nylon
Pertex

My choices - selah

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

I have a Trango Extreme Berghaus jacket and is still great, bought in 1993. I have been keeping it very clean re-proof it with the tumble dry to get excellent re-beading of water.

Nick

Edit; As seems to be the norm here, a well known high selling product is hammered and criticised.
Dare to be different but lets stick to facts when evaluating gear.

 

[reddeath]

as has been said a few times - i think Goretex does its job BUT has been superceeded for specific purposes - event and paramo to mention a couple, worth bearing in mind that in the early days of technical gear goretex was the only item really out there and as a material hasnt really altered that much and certainly hasnt kept up with the competition with regards to innovation BUT it does do waht it says IF we follow instructions to the letter ( not always possible)
worth noting that goretex as a garment membrane is really only a 2nd grade product anyway from its origins as a surgical grade product hence isa reject in the first place??

just my thought provoking 2p worth - my 1st breathable item was a Sprayway goretex TL Torridon Jacket bout in 1995 - i still use it today although it has been re-zippered and seamed etc etc and is looking very dated, i just think there is now better out there

 

[John Fenna]

Ye Gods - I had a first generation Berghaus Mistral - carp!
I have had gore-tex of various sorts over the years - mostly short lived and expensive...
Latterly Gore seem to have upped their game - but I still rate Ventile higher - especially for use around fire and thorn trees.
Gore tex has its place but is far from the ideal bushcraft clothing IMHO

 

[SimonM]

Just like the HH 3 layer system that Addyb mentioned you have to wear the correct clothing under Gotetex fabrics.

Base & mid layers must be able to wick sweat away - How many times have I seen people say that Goretex is useless - plenty, but most of them were wearing sweat soaked cotton t-shirts!

I have owned several Goretex jackets over the years - I come from a traditional walking / packpacking background, & have been happy with all of them. However it is not a wonder fabric - the outer shell must be kept clean, if washed needs to be re treated, is no good around fires or sharp thorns!

Horses for courses - if sitting around a fire is important to you get a ventile, clearing thorns get a waxed cotton ...

 

[Karl5]

I like the stuff to bits.
Its helped me through many a rain- and snowstorm, through days on end in miserable, wet weather.

You'll have to think of Gore-Tex as a compromise, a trial to get the jack-of-all-trades fabric for outdoor garments.
Its not as waterproof as a PVC jacket, but hey, it certainly breathes better.
It's not as fire-resistant as a ventile jacket, but hey, its certainly more waterproof.
It's not as hardwearing as a waxed jacket, but hey, it's certainly lighter.
And so on...

For being a compromise, I believe it excels.
If you want the BEST OF EVERYTHING, I believe we still have to invent that fabric.

/ Karl

 

[John Fenna]

To expand on my previous comments...
I too come from a walking/backpacking background and climbing and canoeing and caving and any other Outdoor Persuit you care to mention that is regularly found in Outdoor Activity Centres.
From the age of 19 I was on the instructional side of things - most Gore-tex garments are not guaranteed for "professional" use - and found Gore-tex (especially the early versions) just not up to the rigours of the life, and too expensive to keep on replacing every year.
For regular use I chose 8oz neoprene proofed nylon (sweaty horrid but waterproof) or Fjallraven (not waterproof as such but quite water-resistant) - Ventile was beyond my pocket in the early days.
For instructional work I have come to the conclusion that - as it will get severe wear and need regular replacement - cheaper breathable waterproofs are a lot more affordable (Regatta, Wynnster etc) if you do not thrash your gear - and are not a professional - then Goretex(with a guarantee) is a viable choice.
When I went into designing and making outdoor clothing - designing for amongst other Craghoppers and Snowdon Clothing and writing 4 books on DIY outdoor clothing - I avoided using Gore-tex, prefering its competition (Sympatex was much better at surviving wear and tear, PU coatings were cheaper if not quite as good all round).
Some of my "shooting clothing" that I use incorporates Gore-tex, and is proving effective (though I am not out in it as much as I am in "hillwalking" or "bushcrafting clothing") but for my "professional use clothing" I still avoid Gore-tex.
It could be that I am still a little biased from using the early versions of Gore-tex - when I had nothing but bad experiences and soakings - but for me Gore-tex is far from a "wonder fabric" with Paramo, Buffalo and Ventile all claiming this title well before Gore-tex gets a look in!
As to wearing the right gear under GT to make it work well - if you wear a thin Pertex shell over two layers of pile or fleece then you are going to stay pretty dry in the worst rain going - and at a low price to boot!
Gore-tex is a useful fabric and used correctly works well - but there are lots of other options out there. Gore-tex did well to become what "Barbour" is to waxed jackets, "Hoover" is to Vacuum cleaners and RM is to bushcraft- the name that everyone recognises in their field!
All this is just my opinion of course - but an opinion formed over 30 years of professional experience as an outdoor skills instructor, expedition leader, clothing designer and equipment reviewer for numerous magazines....
I do still use Gore-tex, but I see it as just another brand of "breathable/waterproof with no great mystique attached to it.
Dar to be different - but stick to the facts as you know them - do not trash or talk up/rave about an item/person just coz it is fashionable to do so!

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

Hmmm. I've got two Goretex jackets, both of them cost the best part of 300 smackers. I thought they were the dog's danglies, done quite a bit of walking in some atrocious weather and stayed reasonably dry. Then noticed that I was damp, I just put it down to running hot and sweating a lot. Then I noticed when I was walking around town I was getting damp 'This isn't right' I thought. Just as an experiment I wore an old Dutch combat jacket I had knocking about(which she hates) and reaslised that it was very breathable, and when it rained it got very stiff and seemed to keep the worst of the rain out after that. I've also got a Swanndri jacket which is extremely breathable and seems to keep the damp out.
As part of the Search and Rescue team I'm in we got given the top of the range Keela jacket which really is the dog's danglies, waterproof and breathable, even in heavy rain and strenuous activities.

One last thing, if Goretex is so breathable, why does it have pit zips?

www.newsar.org.uk

 

[Geuf]

One last thing, if Goretex is so breathable, why does it have pit zips?

www.newsar.org.uk

Lol. That last remark kind of says it all for me. It's not that I dislike goretex. but in the worst of weather, days of pounding rain. my mindset will be that I will get wet, but it would be great if things don't go that way.

 

[basha]

I bought a Goretex jacket many years ago. I think it was referred to as a 'drop liner' construction, i.e. a completely separate layer of Goretex membrane between the outer and inner lining. It cost a lot of money then, probably the equivalent of around £300 today. I really treasured and looked after that jacket, not wishing to damage it (It was bought for hill walking, not bushcraft activities). However even from new, I couldn't understand why I was getting damp in it. I eventually sent it back to the manufacturers who literally took it apart and did a water tank/dye test on it; They even sent me a photo of the results; the membrane was full of holes! They said it was due to 'user abuse'. I disputed it but never won my argument.
I sort of went off Goretex after that.

 

[In Wood]

I have to give gortex the thumbs up.
I have 3 gortes coats and they are of various types, 1 is a mountain equip coat, it has never let me down and i have been in some torential rain in that. the ohter 2 are army issue. 1 is UK issue the other is Dutch army issue. the UK issue is good & big but no pockets, purely an over jacket for foul weather. The dutch one is great, three layer garment. i would not wear my mnt eqp one next to an open fire in case of sparks (and cost) but the dutch one has a cotton / canvas outer layer that resists a spark well.
you do have to look after your gortex now and then treating it with a wash, tumble dry and iron, i have never had a problem with water getting in with any of these coats.
i also have a gortex ponch (army issue) that is also very good.

 

[SOAR]

I have a 3 layer Berghaus xcr jacket, I dont use it for Bushcraft its more for walking or fishing, its really good very waterproof, windproof and you can breath in it, great for when you are fishing from a boat on a Loch and the wind and rain lashes down on you, always keeps me dry.

 

[oilyrag]

Gore-Tex is the superior outdoor clothing material for keeping you dry, it's just not suited to bushcraft. It's perfect for mountaineering, sailing and snow sports but a little too fragile.

 

[sharp88]

You always sweat doing activity whatever you wear, but its superior to plasticy nylon stuff. Too fragile n do noisey though sometimes, I prefer heavy wool, but it can't be beat when your exposed and in a heavy downpour.

 

[qweeg500]

I only ever had one Goretex jacket back in the early 90's. It was the 3-ply Berghaus Thunder (£160) and was brilliant when new. After 2-3 years it started absorbing raindrops like mad and retreating it just didn't work.
I now have a similar spec Lowe Alpine Triple Point Ceramic (£99) which I've had since 2002 and it still performs well. Any moisture on the outside beads up nicely and I don't get particularly sweaty on a walk.
I don't buy these types of jackets very often as you can see but based on my own experience I'd say the performance of Goretex is great but doesn't last very long.

 

[fishy1]

Paramo gear is far superior, absolutely brilliant. I suggest you try it, although it's expensive. I like the way you can easily rewaterproof it.

 

[woodstock]

I have a few gortex jackets and coats the one i favour most at the moment is my berghaus paclite a great bit of kit not cheap mind you but good pound for pound against more heavyweights