global warming vs pollution

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Joseph

Tenderfoot
May 27, 2006
54
4
39
Norfolk
As two thirds of our planet is ocean they have a greateffect on the carbon cycling. The ocean has a lower primary porductivity per unit area so it is thought to be just under half as said. Much of the facts and figures come from estimations and models so exact porportions are impossible to come up with and vary greatly depending on who (which government/organisation) and what they want to promote.

All plants and photosynthesising organisms both respire (produce CO2) and photosynthesise (create 02) its not so much the fact they produce oxygen (which can be balanced by the CO2 they create depending on the plants environment and physiology) it is the carbon put into its tissues and associated mycorhizal (symbiotic fungi) and microbe soil biota which are a benefit and this is the carbon which is taken from the atmoshere and stored. The majority of the coal used is the result of geological processes on the lycophyte, horsetail and treefern forests that existed during the carboniferous period. They did not decompose in the swamps they grew in and eventually formed peat. Heat and pressure turned this to coal. This is the locked up carbon. Once carbon dioxide is put back into the atmosphere the processes that remove it are on a huge timescale. If or once the permafrost starts melting then the carbon locked up in that will be released also. Running out of oxygen is not really an issue animals and humans use a small fraction of what is present in the atmosphere. We/animals/insects comprise a small fraction of the earths biomass, plants, diatoms, algae, etc, which comprise the majority and overall consume and produce oxygen. Biodiversity wise insects are the most diverse then plants.

Charities are well meaning but where does the money go and are their actions sensible. Cash crops empower people but empowerment basically equates to more money, not only for the essentials food and medicine but also starts the process of consumerism. The money gained from such crops in Africa for example have been shown to be used to buy bushmeat. Hunting of a limited resource to supply a growing population with money. That is a direct link back to the ecosystem, the chicken offcuts and frozen fish transported from western markets is different and adds a carbon releasing influence.

Personally i believe that organisations such a medican sans frontieres which helps those who are suffering greatly are the way forward. Imposing western ideals and sometimes farming methods on others is difficult to get right. Who makes the choice to let people progress or say their not allowed what we have?

What I've listed are just examples and the whole caboodle is very complex. Should we conserve only rare species or attempt to have the diversest ecosystem as possible? These cannot both happen at the same time usually. Should giant pandas survive and the huge number of endemic rainforest species (insects particularly) which are small and unnoticeable be a lesser priority? Just some thoughts.
 
Jan 22, 2006
478
0
51
uk
anyone see 'the global warming swindle'??

the facts were that co2 does have a relationship with earth's temp. but its the opposite to what we've been told of late. the more co2, the colder we get. levels of co2 lag behind sun activity by a 100- 300 years. they had what seemed to be some pretty hard factual evidence. i'm going to keep checking it out.

hope to god they're right!

i must admit they had a pretty convincing argument...after all they did keep saying 'just look at the numbers'.

brings me back to my original point of pollution in terms of chemical pollution that is actually poisoning land air and sea is a bigger deal than global warming, that is global warming caused by man.

anyone see it? what do you think? maybe i'm being suckered in by this documentary....its been known to happen before

in the back of my mind i've always thought that to think that polar bears cant cope with warmer weather is (imo) naive, they've done it pretty well over the last 50,000 yrs or so.

perhaps its yet another case of media hysteria, and actually missing the real story.

i'm prepared for the virtual hiding...bring it on - i'm just trying to get to the truth so i can adjust my lifestyle accordingly..although i'm kind of there already in as many was as i can without doing the full on Grizzly Adams...
 

Wink

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 4, 2004
129
0
Norfolk
anyone see 'the global warming swindle'??

I did! I thought it was a very thought provoking programme. For those that didn't see it, the programme examined the belief that increasing carbon dioxide (caused by man) is driving climate change. The conclusion was that it is not.

A lot has been made of the link in ice cores between historical global temperature and CO2, as per Al Gore's film. However, the programme showed that, whilst the graphs follow the same pattern, the CO2 increases happen after the temperature increases, by several hundred years. This is the wrong way round if the currently popular (and politically correct) wisdom is to be believed. The programme claimed that rather than CO2 driving climate change, climate change drives up the level of CO2. Although CO2 is a greenhouse gas, it is naturally occuring, and there is more CO2 released into the atmosphere each year by volcanos than by the whole of the human population! In addition, micro-organisms produce far more than we do. Even this amount of CO2, though, is minimal in terms of the percentage of gases already within the atmosphere, and is totally dwarfed by the amount of water vapour (another greenhouse gas) that is present in the atmosphere.

The temperature of the planet has fluctuated greatly over time. For example, in the 17th century there was a mini ice age, when the Thames would regularly freeze over in winter. However, 1000 years ago the temperature was warmer than it is now. The polar bears survived.

So what is causing the temperature to rise? The programme looked at evidence linking solar activity from the sun with temperature on earth, and there appears to be a direct link between the numbers of sunspots (and the level of "solar wind") and the temperature fluctuations.

I have to say, there were a good number of scientists on the programme who seemed absolutely convinced that the current thinking is completely wrong, but that to actually say so risks ridicule and loss of research funding, such is the almost religious fervour of the Carbon Cause. Even one of the founders of Greenpeace was saying that linking CO2 and global warming was nonsense.

If you can, try and see this programme, it makes you think!
 
Jan 22, 2006
478
0
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uk
i cant help but feel massively relieved...it seems odd to get 'good' environmental news.
hope its true, certainly looked credible.
 

nobby

Nomad
Jun 26, 2005
370
2
75
English Midlands
Look back on history; man adapts. Some creatures cannot adapt and they die out. So what. If Polar bears don't make it through climate change you can see them in zoos and on video if you feel the need to. Even David Attenborough will be gone one day.
The current status quo of man, animals and environment is always subject to change. Has anybody seriously missed the dodo for anything other than emotional reasons? Do hill farmers mourn the wolf?
 

xylaria

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I watched the global warming swindle last night as well. Very interesting, but just like the opposing view they were selective about which facts they pushed.

They were not doubting that the climate is changing. They were just showing that carbon is not a significant factor.

We have been warmer than we are now and survived. The program did mention a warm period 700 year ago, but then glossed over what this actually meant. The population of europe dropped by about 1/3. The vikings died out in newfoundland and greenland because it had became very cold in that region. The Beothoth and Inuits adjusted and survived because they lived less environmentally expensive lifestyles and knew about their own locality.

Beware of media bias, there are always hidden agendas.
 

CLEM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 10, 2004
2,433
439
Stourbridge
I have allways believed global warming to be aload of old tosh,the tv programme just reenforced that!
 

madrussian

Nomad
Aug 18, 2006
466
1
61
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
Just goes to show you how people can easily be swayed by the media. A movie comes out about global warming and everyone wants to do something to correct it. Another one comes out to disprove the first one and everyone then feels that there is no need to do anything about it everything is just fine. Natural cycle and all that. Hine sight is always 20/20. I guess in time we'll see who is correct. Maybe polar bears won't be the only mammals that go extinct. :D
 

Wink

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 4, 2004
129
0
Norfolk
The problem is, if global warming is not due to CO2 but due to the sun, we're barking up the wrong tree in trying to slash carbon emissions to reverse/prevent it. And the point the programme was making was that the developed world is pressuring the undeveloped world not to take advantage of the benefits that we all take for granted (like electricity), to deal with a problem that doesn't exist!

Whilst we bushcrafters might have a romantic view of minimalist living, we have a choice, and mostly indulge ourselves with our hobby whilst also having the TV, computer, cars, central heating etc that huge chunks of the world's population can only dream about. Also, if all the money spent on research into climate change (allegedly billions) was diverted into, say famine relief or medical care or education for the third world, we might solve a few problems that actually do exist.

And don't get me started on the wind farms destroying the few wilderness areas we still have in the UK...

Of course, both sides agree that the temperatures are rising, so the question of unavoidable change in some of our ecosystems still arises, it's just whether anything can or should be done to stop it, or should we let nature balance itself as it always has done in the past?
 

nobby

Nomad
Jun 26, 2005
370
2
75
English Midlands
Wink said:
And don't get me started on the wind farms destroying the few wilderness areas we still have in the UK...

.... or should we let nature balance itself as it always has done in the past?

How do windfarms 'destroy' wilderness areas?

To the last part yes
 

Greg

Full Member
Jul 16, 2006
4,335
259
Pembrokeshire
I think we should be doing something about both pollution and global warming, since we wouldn't have the global warming problem in the first place if it wasn't for pollution! they both go hand in hand. But don't give up on the planet already, Mother Nature has her own way of dealing with these things! :rolleyes:
 

C_Claycomb

Moderator staff
Mod
Oct 6, 2003
7,395
2,414
Bedfordshire
...since we wouldn't have the global warming problem in the first place if it wasn't for pollution!

Um. The last few posts have just been pointing out that there is evidence that this may not be the case. The above is not a given.

I found last night's program to be interesting. I didn't catch all of it, but it tied in to some stuff I had read recently regarding the role of cosmic rays and cloud formation and the effect of that on climate.

I am all for controlling emissions if possible, it is clearly bad to be pumping smoke and chemicals into the atmosphere. I also worry about our dependency on oil, it is both the fuel that runs our modern world, but also the key raw material for creating a vast number of the compounds and materials that make up the fabric of the Western world. Simply burning such an important, and finite, resource, seems like asking for trouble in the long term even if it doesn't make any difference to the global climate.

The point about Western environmentalist pushing a "sustainable" energy agenda on Third World economies was not something I had thought of before. I didn't realise that the environmental groups had such influence to make that kind of difference. From a moral point of view it is hard to justify such a course, although its hard to guess what the long term effects would be of real Third World modernisation. One set of problems could be solved only to be replaced by another. :confused:
 

locum76

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 9, 2005
2,772
9
47
Kirkliston
Wink said:
And don't get me started on the wind farms destroying the few wilderness areas we still have in the UK...

i think wind farms are awesome. and aren't they about sustaining resources?
 

Risclean

Forager
Feb 28, 2007
122
0
48
North Highlands
I watched "The Great Global Warming Swindle" and I was not impressed. Most of the arguments are the same ones which have been held up against man-made global warming for many years. These arguments have been debunked, but because the challenge to man-made global warming is political rather than scientific this has had little effect.
If there was some genuine new discovery involved it would have been published in a journal like Nature, not made into a film for Channel 4. I would never expect to get a real understanding of the issues from this film, Al Gore or a program such as Horizon.
The case for man-made global warming might have been presented inaccurately or in an alarmist manner by the media and various interst groups but that does not undermine the science.
 

Carcajou Garou

On a new journey
Jun 7, 2004
551
5
Canada
I think that great amounts of money are generated by both sides of the issue, not for the proper stewardship of our environment but only to prove their points of view and access power. If we had actually used the moneys generated to develop industry in a more efficient less poluting way we would be well on our way...we prefer to argue! We are so vain a species as to presume that we are the ultimate/sole source of geo-forming that we don't even realise that the earth is always in a state of flux moving (tectonic plate/earthquakes), shaping (volcanic activities), emissions (particulates from forest fires, volcanic ash), extinctions of species (dinosaur die off) etc...
We are going through cycles and are noticing/recording changes but with such a limited amount of information spread over historical timelines we have to be careful in reaching conclusions.
Pollution didn't come over night and cleaning it up won't happen over night, also collaspsing the econnomy to clean it up just won't happen, who will pay, research technology, find alternate manufacturing methods, sustainable foods sources, etc... to allow at least a sufficient quality of life for our next generations?
Do we really want to go back to a primitive state?
Clean what we have polluted, accept what we haven't. Strive to improve.
 

Carcajou Garou

On a new journey
Jun 7, 2004
551
5
Canada
Wind farms do kill to many birds presently, installing perimeter deterrants (sonic?) is not being done in the hurry to be "green"
Will we pit 2 or more environmental group against each other in just this one facet?
 

Greg

Full Member
Jul 16, 2006
4,335
259
Pembrokeshire
C_Claycomb said:
Um. The last few posts have just been pointing out that there is evidence that this may not be the case. The above is not a given.


Ummm!
I work in an oil refinery and I see every day the amount of crap that goes into the atmosphere, especially after dark, my place has a permanent crappy cloud hanging over it that you can see for miles, so whoever thinks that pollution isn't causing Global warming green house gasses is pretty mistaken. because some of the very gases that cause global warming - Sulphur, Carbon Monoxide etc exude from an oil refinery, although the companies and the government states that emissions are lower now they are still apparent, and that is in this country. Now go to the third world countries where most of the big oil and chemical companies are now building even bigger plants and where there are no restrictions in place you can only imagine how much crap is going into the atmosphere, Add to this the hundreds of coal fired power stations that are still in operation around the world and the emissions from the millions of cars that are driven everyday globally and everything else that emits gases in this technically advanced world and a big picture emerges. pollution is the number one cause of green house gases - Global Warming.
Yes there is obviously other causes like those that have been mentioned but since the industrial revolution began the earth's temperature has risen dramatically, more so than it had before in the previous thousand years.
 

madrussian

Nomad
Aug 18, 2006
466
1
61
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
How is this for a little evidence:

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This is from NASA. Not some tree hugging group. See for yourself.
 

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