Would be interesting to research the ideal diet. I will get out my ref books from my days of studying anatomy and physiology.
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Looks like this guy knows what he's talking about - considering his profession and experience:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061111095015AAEUQe0
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061111095015AAEUQe0
This is proving to be an interesting line of investigation - looks like there are some differing views on the most efficient ways to keep warm, and where the greatest loss is.
both those articles fail to mention the issue we have already broached here....
when your temperature starts to drop, your vascular system contracts and slows/restricts the blood supply to the extremities as these, while rather important, can be sacrificed to ensure the essientials of the body continue to recieve warm oxygenated blood. in addition, if this process didnt occur, your blood would actively draw heat away from your core speeding up the loss of heat. this process is complicit in the issue of frost bite, its not just about the cold, as the cold could be offset by constant suply of warm blood... so food, core wamrth and preservation heat by insulation elsewhere will slow the progress of frost bite
re your head, as mentioned it is one of those essiential organs that unlike a foot or arm, you cannot live without. the blood supply doesnt, at first reduce to the brain the same way as it does to the limbs... though as the core temp drops, the same process will apply... hence the confusional state, slurring of words, lack of co-ordination.... all caused by a reduction of the blood supply to the brain.
the body is an amazing thing and will change and adapt as rapidly as it can to prolong and preserve its existence. of course there will come a point when the blood supply to the brain slows to such an extent you become comatose.. you are then completely unable to withdraw to safety and night night irene... but your body is still trying to save itself by doing that,, withdrawing the last of the heat and warm blood to the core to feed the most important organ, the heart (ok yes, you cant live without a brain either, but your heart can still pump warm blood round your body as long as it still has some coming to it.. head or not!)
so as i said, warm core, with a warm head gives the best chance of maintianing a good core temp. while you loose lots through your head, i dont know how much, but i do know you will continue to loose heat through your head long after your extremities have turned off the radiator vales
btw, i will happily question the "surgeon" on yahoo who states you will bleed out from any surface vascular bleed. does he not know about the clotting process that our blood cells and fibrin very convientiantly undertake for us? if that didnt happen, we would bleed out from any wound. vascular blood is not under pressure unlike arteial and the lack of goss muscle in the scap further slows the vascular ebb and flow. head wounds just look bad, a combination of lots of capillaries, tight skin and hair combined with the different type of soft tissues in the scalp that dont lend themselves to constricting the veins (hence the lack of vasoconstriction in the early stages of the cold to an extent too) as you find in more muscular parts of the body.... direct pressure to a scalp wound mimics the action of vasoconstriction, slows the flow and allows clotting to take place. though most scalp wounds over half inch will will require suturing to close them up.....
i am not a doctor, nor should this be a substitute for proper (face to face rather than the interweb) medical advice or treatment but i do have a day to day working knowledge of anatomy and physiology, though mostly from the neck up and as it goes, a bit of hepatology, immunology and the vascular system
when your temperature starts to drop, your vascular system contracts and slows/restricts the blood supply to the extremities as these, while rather important, can be sacrificed to ensure the essientials of the body continue to recieve warm oxygenated blood. in addition, if this process didnt occur, your blood would actively draw heat away from your core speeding up the loss of heat. this process is complicit in the issue of frost bite, its not just about the cold, as the cold could be offset by constant suply of warm blood... so food, core wamrth and preservation heat by insulation elsewhere will slow the progress of frost bite
re your head, as mentioned it is one of those essiential organs that unlike a foot or arm, you cannot live without. the blood supply doesnt, at first reduce to the brain the same way as it does to the limbs... though as the core temp drops, the same process will apply... hence the confusional state, slurring of words, lack of co-ordination.... all caused by a reduction of the blood supply to the brain.
the body is an amazing thing and will change and adapt as rapidly as it can to prolong and preserve its existence. of course there will come a point when the blood supply to the brain slows to such an extent you become comatose.. you are then completely unable to withdraw to safety and night night irene... but your body is still trying to save itself by doing that,, withdrawing the last of the heat and warm blood to the core to feed the most important organ, the heart (ok yes, you cant live without a brain either, but your heart can still pump warm blood round your body as long as it still has some coming to it.. head or not!)
so as i said, warm core, with a warm head gives the best chance of maintianing a good core temp. while you loose lots through your head, i dont know how much, but i do know you will continue to loose heat through your head long after your extremities have turned off the radiator vales
btw, i will happily question the "surgeon" on yahoo who states you will bleed out from any surface vascular bleed. does he not know about the clotting process that our blood cells and fibrin very convientiantly undertake for us? if that didnt happen, we would bleed out from any wound. vascular blood is not under pressure unlike arteial and the lack of goss muscle in the scap further slows the vascular ebb and flow. head wounds just look bad, a combination of lots of capillaries, tight skin and hair combined with the different type of soft tissues in the scalp that dont lend themselves to constricting the veins (hence the lack of vasoconstriction in the early stages of the cold to an extent too) as you find in more muscular parts of the body.... direct pressure to a scalp wound mimics the action of vasoconstriction, slows the flow and allows clotting to take place. though most scalp wounds over half inch will will require suturing to close them up.....
i am not a doctor, nor should this be a substitute for proper (face to face rather than the interweb) medical advice or treatment but i do have a day to day working knowledge of anatomy and physiology, though mostly from the neck up and as it goes, a bit of hepatology, immunology and the vascular system
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and just to prove my point from the article in the gaurdian where a couple of peadiatricians set out in an "feature" in the BMJ (read that as tabloid article)
the links for ease......
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/dec/17/medicalresearch-humanbehaviour
which cites the BMJ article
http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a2769.full
which draws from a study:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/1...linkType=ABST&journalCode=jap&resid=101/2/669
which concluded that core temp loss was expidiated by heat loss through the head and in the responses to the BMJ article a clincial physiologist (whose whole knowledge is about the physiological process of the body rather than child doctors (and any doctor will tell you a child dont work the same as the rest of the human race.. hence hardly any drugs actually have a license for use on children, their physiology is really quite different)
http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a2769?tab=responses
yes i spend much of my day arguing the toss with doctors too
the links for ease......
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/dec/17/medicalresearch-humanbehaviour
which cites the BMJ article
http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a2769.full
which draws from a study:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/1...linkType=ABST&journalCode=jap&resid=101/2/669
which concluded that core temp loss was expidiated by heat loss through the head and in the responses to the BMJ article a clincial physiologist (whose whole knowledge is about the physiological process of the body rather than child doctors (and any doctor will tell you a child dont work the same as the rest of the human race.. hence hardly any drugs actually have a license for use on children, their physiology is really quite different)
http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a2769?tab=responses
yes i spend much of my day arguing the toss with doctors too
And it all seemed so simple at the time....feel cold, shiver, stumble around, shiver a lot more, forget stuff.................................nice warm ambulance.
Shall we move on.....?
Shall we move on.....?
Taking Lucy's , last comment on board , as she was the poor camp mate most affected by the incident, lets put closure on the subject .
Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread with some sound advice and knowledge.
We all learned some valuable lessons from the weekend just gone , i certainly did !!
Lets all enjoy the upcoming festivities and look forward to lots of safe and happy meets in 2012 .
Thankyou Ivan...
PS Not saying i won't take the mickey about it in the future , but thats just me ...
Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread with some sound advice and knowledge.
We all learned some valuable lessons from the weekend just gone , i certainly did !!
Lets all enjoy the upcoming festivities and look forward to lots of safe and happy meets in 2012 .
Thankyou Ivan...
PS Not saying i won't take the mickey about it in the future , but thats just me ...
Lessons like...
Put your waterproofs on, before it rains...
One box of matches and a lighter, is not enough to support two pipe smokers, for a whole weekend...
Fairy lights last several days, on 3 AA batteries...
Wood burns much better with chainsaw oil on it...
Gandalf wasn't so much grey, as blueish...
Ivan looks more like David Dickinson, than Hoggle...
Top points!
Not missing- Hammocks only work if they are under you whilst sitting down....
(If a certain female remembers )
Not missing- Hammocks only work if they are under you whilst sitting down....
(If a certain female remembers
)
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Lessons like...
Put your waterproofs on, before it rains...
One box of matches and a lighter, is not enough to support two pipe smokers, for a whole weekend...
Fairy lights last several days, on 3 AA batteries...
Wood burns much better with chainsaw oil on it...
Gandalf wasn't so much grey, as blueish...
Ivan looks more like David Dickinson, than Hoggle...
And don't forget to the safe weight load of your chair when it buy it ... if you don't want to end up sitting on frosty ground!!
And Ivans prize will have to be "Cheap as chips"
Top points!
Not missing- Hammocks only work if they are under you whilst sitting down....
(If a certain female remembers
Now you mention it, a vague memory of that. Another thing not to try when there is reduced blood flow to the brain. Explains one of the bruises.
I thought you might be wondering where they came from!
Your not alone; my learning curve was pulling off wellies whilst sitting in said hammock... Well I was at the start
Your not alone; my learning curve was pulling off wellies whilst sitting in said hammock... Well I was at the start
And the other lesson is 'He who saves your life by calling ambulance, may guide you into a cold bog on the way back from it !' (If a certain male remembers)
Nerp
Hewazzatthen? I blame the adrenalin depleting, and the port returning with vengeance!
Hewazzatthen? I blame the adrenalin depleting, and the port returning with vengeance!
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Nerp
Hewazzatthen? I blame the adrenalin depleting, and the port returning with vengeance!
That was what I put it down to as well .
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