Hello from across the pond. I know a lot of outdoors people in the UK have experience with periods of damp and rainy conditions. What clothing material and combination works best in sustained wet conditions where you don't have an opportunity to dry your clothing? IMHO, wool works OK in a shower, but becomes a problem if completely saturated. Do any of you guys have experience with this and have a clothing system you can depend on to keep you safe? Is the Pile/Pertex Buffalo system still the best to keep you relatively warm in wet conditions? Does polypro or modern fleece plus wind shirt have any place here? Looking for your opinions based on your experiences.
Clothing that works in sustained Wet conditions
- Thread starter leatherneck
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In my opinion in rainy weather the best is to wear a thin cotton T-shirt under a thin approximately 50/50 % polyester- cotton mix field shirt (approximately as thick as the light US Army BDU over shirts) but in the trousers, over it a polyester fleece jacket and on top of it an unlined 3 layer Goretex jacket.
On the legs polyester- cotton mix trousers and over it goretex over trousers with pocket zippers but no own pockets. Like that you pump out moisture and heat.
The jacket should go over the zippers here.
The usual trousers tucked into high military boots, the Goretex trousers over the boots.
That is based on mainly German bad weather experiences under 20*C.
In warm conditions: US Army poncho.
Defcon 5 makes a 350g lightweight version, which is a bit short for tall persons, but wide enough to protect the arms: 200 x 168 cm, 350g
An Umbrella is another option for hot weather and rain.
On the legs polyester- cotton mix trousers and over it goretex over trousers with pocket zippers but no own pockets. Like that you pump out moisture and heat.
The jacket should go over the zippers here.
The usual trousers tucked into high military boots, the Goretex trousers over the boots.
That is based on mainly German bad weather experiences under 20*C.
In warm conditions: US Army poncho.
Defcon 5 makes a 350g lightweight version, which is a bit short for tall persons, but wide enough to protect the arms: 200 x 168 cm, 350g
An Umbrella is another option for hot weather and rain.
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I like to fish all day in the rain. I dragged a shrimp trawl as a job for several months.
Rain, even snow showers, didn't matter.
Commercial Fishing rain gear with bib-front pants that go over your rubber boots.
If you get mucked up, you can hose yourself off and look all neat and tidy again.
Find a Ship's Chandler that sells commercial fishing clothing.
They usually have some good wool sweaters, too.
Rain, even snow showers, didn't matter.
Commercial Fishing rain gear with bib-front pants that go over your rubber boots.
If you get mucked up, you can hose yourself off and look all neat and tidy again.
Find a Ship's Chandler that sells commercial fishing clothing.
They usually have some good wool sweaters, too.
And cotton would be the last fabric I would use next to my skin - but we've had that discussion before so let's not go through it again 
In my experience of trekking through British weather - which on a summer's day could include rain, fog, wind and even hail, there is no such thing as a clothing system that will keep you 100% dry forever unless it's a pure impermeable layer like a fisherman's oilskins and then you'll get wet from the inside if you're doing anything strenuous. However, I have stayed dry for several hours hiking in torrential rain with a good breathable outer layers with a thermal layer between me and the 'waterproof' of either wool or a fleece. The inner face of the outer layer usually gets damp but the thermal gradient between me and it expels the moisture outwards.
In my experience of trekking through British weather - which on a summer's day could include rain, fog, wind and even hail, there is no such thing as a clothing system that will keep you 100% dry forever unless it's a pure impermeable layer like a fisherman's oilskins and then you'll get wet from the inside if you're doing anything strenuous. However, I have stayed dry for several hours hiking in torrential rain with a good breathable outer layers with a thermal layer between me and the 'waterproof' of either wool or a fleece. The inner face of the outer layer usually gets damp but the thermal gradient between me and it expels the moisture outwards.
I was always taught by the old hands in my old canoe club that the best base layer under your wetsuit was polypropylene. Specifically Helly Hansen Lifa in long sleeve. As a noobie you're almost certain to come out of your kayak and have a swim. The smelly Helly was considered the best base layer bar none to get you feeling comfortable again once upright and in your boat.
In my experience it's polypropylene and it's high rate of wicking (which wool doesn't do very well) that helps to keep your skin dry or at least wet and comfortable. In winter in the UK I wear prowool from HH. It's polypropylene inner and Merino outer. If it's cold enough wet isn't as much issue as keeping my skin dry through modifying layer warmth. If that fails then that prowool wicks moisture away from skin and locks it away in the wool.
I've also got buffalo special 6 shirt. It's ok in the rain when I tried it out along our local canal in an hour's downpour. The only issue is rain down the neck unless you wear the hood. The hood isn't great and I reckon it will be too warm except in winter. After an hour plus of very heavy downpour I was only just damp inside. I was actually wearing a t-shirt and longsleeve t-shirt underneath because it was local and they would show leakage. It only got slightly damp where the buffalo shirt had durational seans at the shoulders. Works well I thought.
Whether I'd wear in a full day in the hills in heavy rain I'm not sure. I'd like to test it out though.
I've also used Rab vapour rise Softshell. It's not very good in heavy rain as the rain wet it through in 5 minutes. I've also got a Paramo analogy smock. It's better than a hardshell IME even though it's effectively a softshell not a hardshell waterproof. Best thing is water doesn't seem to run off it onto my legs or groin area causing it to be uncomfortable. I think membrane waterproofs seem to run the water off quicker. Paramo stays drier inside though without the sweat wetting you inside as hardshell jackets do.
In my experience it's polypropylene and it's high rate of wicking (which wool doesn't do very well) that helps to keep your skin dry or at least wet and comfortable. In winter in the UK I wear prowool from HH. It's polypropylene inner and Merino outer. If it's cold enough wet isn't as much issue as keeping my skin dry through modifying layer warmth. If that fails then that prowool wicks moisture away from skin and locks it away in the wool.
I've also got buffalo special 6 shirt. It's ok in the rain when I tried it out along our local canal in an hour's downpour. The only issue is rain down the neck unless you wear the hood. The hood isn't great and I reckon it will be too warm except in winter. After an hour plus of very heavy downpour I was only just damp inside. I was actually wearing a t-shirt and longsleeve t-shirt underneath because it was local and they would show leakage. It only got slightly damp where the buffalo shirt had durational seans at the shoulders. Works well I thought.
Whether I'd wear in a full day in the hills in heavy rain I'm not sure. I'd like to test it out though.
I've also used Rab vapour rise Softshell. It's not very good in heavy rain as the rain wet it through in 5 minutes. I've also got a Paramo analogy smock. It's better than a hardshell IME even though it's effectively a softshell not a hardshell waterproof. Best thing is water doesn't seem to run off it onto my legs or groin area causing it to be uncomfortable. I think membrane waterproofs seem to run the water off quicker. Paramo stays drier inside though without the sweat wetting you inside as hardshell jackets do.
I think UK outdoors types tend to avoid cotton more than Americans and indeed other nations outdoor types.i find it curious why you avoid it but Americans and Canadians for that matter are more open to cotton use. I wonder if having more defined seasons such that weather is more predictable and the same for longer periods of time means cotton isn't found out as quickly as in the UK. I believe in winter Canada and parts of America can be very cold such that is very dry.. in those conditions all you do is brush snow off your jeans before going inside like brushing off dust.
Leatherneck,
The Paramo system gets used a lot by the British Mountain Rescue crews. Like the Buffalo system, it prioritizes breathability and fast drying over absolute water blocking. The downside is that they can be quite warm in warmer weather.
I have mixed feelings about polypro. I used Helly Hansen leggings when wet wading after trout in New Zealand, November, South Island. They kept my remarkably comfortable despite wading through rivers up to groin depth. The day was sunny but not hot, call it t-shirt+fleece+wind breaker weather. On the top half, I really don't like most synthetics because I make them stink so fast. I much prefer very thin wool for a t-shirt in cool and/or damp conditions.
If I am hiking, I will be sweating, I have been perfectly comfortable in a wool t-shirt and polyester wind shirt during dank October hikes in the Lake District and only realised how wet my shirt was when I stopped moving. Paramo make/made a puffy jacket sized to throw on over wet gear and I can attest that you can dry damp inner layers while wearing it at day's end. Once wet inside a hard shell, it is much harder to dry off
The Paramo system gets used a lot by the British Mountain Rescue crews. Like the Buffalo system, it prioritizes breathability and fast drying over absolute water blocking. The downside is that they can be quite warm in warmer weather.
I have mixed feelings about polypro. I used Helly Hansen leggings when wet wading after trout in New Zealand, November, South Island. They kept my remarkably comfortable despite wading through rivers up to groin depth. The day was sunny but not hot, call it t-shirt+fleece+wind breaker weather. On the top half, I really don't like most synthetics because I make them stink so fast. I much prefer very thin wool for a t-shirt in cool and/or damp conditions.
If I am hiking, I will be sweating, I have been perfectly comfortable in a wool t-shirt and polyester wind shirt during dank October hikes in the Lake District and only realised how wet my shirt was when I stopped moving. Paramo make/made a puffy jacket sized to throw on over wet gear and I can attest that you can dry damp inner layers while wearing it at day's end. Once wet inside a hard shell, it is much harder to dry off
Are those waterproofs the heavy vinyl faced material? I can't imagine they are easy to pack into a back pack, or hike in, or even all that comfortable to kneel in a canoe and paddle all day. I know that the totally impermeable, sized BIG jackets can be good for canoeing since they can be thrown quickly over the top of everything, including the buoyancy aid, but I am sceptical about the practicality of heavy vinyl bib pants outside of fishing. Sport fishermen wear breathable waders for hiking up river, but Gortex still market light over trousers to the hikers rather than trying to sell everyone stocking foot waders.
Horses for courses. Hiking rain wear wouldn't last well while sea fishing. I know for fact that the salt screws up the performance of Paramo, and imagine its not great for other expensive gear either.
I can recall that the coat was lined with flannel cloth. It had buckles instead of buttons or zips. Easy to operate with heavy waterproof gloves on. Very neutral smelling. I likes the bib front pants. Heavy but for fish mess, invincible.
The sou'wester hats had long tails out beyond your collar. Pretty cozy from spray.
Right now, I own a rain "jacket" that hangs down to my hips.
4X large for warm clothes with a hood that closes all but for my eyes.
Sold in a chandler's for offshore sailing races. Those sailors have some very busy times.
The wrist seals actually work when you need them!
One small test was a Churchill River SK fishing trip with 5" rain over 2 days.
The sou'wester hats had long tails out beyond your collar. Pretty cozy from spray.
Right now, I own a rain "jacket" that hangs down to my hips.
4X large for warm clothes with a hood that closes all but for my eyes.
Sold in a chandler's for offshore sailing races. Those sailors have some very busy times.
The wrist seals actually work when you need them!
One small test was a Churchill River SK fishing trip with 5" rain over 2 days.
That hasn't been my experience. In fact, rather the opposite. I've found that people will get quite aerated on the subject of efficiently wicking, rapid drying, non cotton clothes if you're headed out together .... to the extent of offence
Otherwise, I agree: a wool or poly wicking shirt, with a fluffy fleece/wool layer and a DWR shell or Goretex over that.
There's so many variations possible within that basic scheme though
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We have extremely good cotton goods. Shirts, pants, underclothes, T-shirts, sheet goods for bedding.
However.
You figure it out very quickly that for outdoor pursuits, wool is the thing to beat.
I have a hell of a time buying wool sweaters (aka jumpers). So I quit looking.
Found a paraplegic lady who is a knitter.
She makes my sweaters and my toques and scarves from 100% wool.
However.
You figure it out very quickly that for outdoor pursuits, wool is the thing to beat.
I have a hell of a time buying wool sweaters (aka jumpers). So I quit looking.
Found a paraplegic lady who is a knitter.
She makes my sweaters and my toques and scarves from 100% wool.
I'm trying out an Italian army base layer from Endicotts this winter, we'll see how it goes. 51% wool.
I think something under rated here that hasn't been mentioned is spare dry clothing.
I know from mtb'ing through winter the past two years it's very easy to stay warm when you are moving but when you stop, have a sweat on and/or rained on you cool down mighty fast. No shell can really help out in this instance.
I think something under rated here that hasn't been mentioned is spare dry clothing.
I know from mtb'ing through winter the past two years it's very easy to stay warm when you are moving but when you stop, have a sweat on and/or rained on you cool down mighty fast. No shell can really help out in this instance.
Layers and wet dry routine. I tend to run hot if I'm working or moving about with a bergan. I'll typically wear a T-shirt (Mountain warehouse Endurance ones are nice and cheap) and a jacket to keep stuff in pockets. If it starts to rain then a cheap goretex jacket, and if it lashes it down goretex trousers.
At the end of the day your clothes shouldn't be too wet, change into dry clothes and hop into your sleeping bag with the damp clothes, by morning they should have dried out.
Out of curiosity, do most foreigners, when they're thinking of coming o the UK for a bit of AT assume it's going to be raining all the time? It's a fair assumption I'm just curious as to what the perception of our weather/climate is.
At the end of the day your clothes shouldn't be too wet, change into dry clothes and hop into your sleeping bag with the damp clothes, by morning they should have dried out.
Out of curiosity, do most foreigners, when they're thinking of coming o the UK for a bit of AT assume it's going to be raining all the time? It's a fair assumption I'm just curious as to what the perception of our weather/climate is.
I once had a holiday in Wales 8 days of glorious too hot sunshine and one of rain, a few years after about the same in Ireland and the one day was not rain but pretty darn thick fog at Moher. Why does nobody believe me?
I belong to the synthetic underwear group in this respect. there is a possibility that some of the regenerated cellulose fibers might work better than ol' cotton. I have a few Tencel T-shirts and it does feel like they differ from cotton quite remarkably.
The problem with outerwear is that when RH is 100% no heat gradient can really do much moisture expulsion and one has to rely on convection and that means losing some heat with it. When on the move that is no problem. Otherwise I have kind of given up, no outer layer really works at all conditions, some are better some are worse depending.
I belong to the synthetic underwear group in this respect. there is a possibility that some of the regenerated cellulose fibers might work better than ol' cotton. I have a few Tencel T-shirts and it does feel like they differ from cotton quite remarkably.
The problem with outerwear is that when RH is 100% no heat gradient can really do much moisture expulsion and one has to rely on convection and that means losing some heat with it. When on the move that is no problem. Otherwise I have kind of given up, no outer layer really works at all conditions, some are better some are worse depending.
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I wore my buffalo Sunday. I set off planning to do hellvellyn but late start and traffic changed plans. As a result I didn't get high enough for it to be really comfortable. I doesn't spent all but the last bit at the tops being very hot. Stopped for a snack at the top with a very wet patch on my back where the sack was. 5 minutes sitting it had gone.
IME buffalo reminds me of analogy clothing in that moisture is actively moved outwards and dissipated on the outer layer. I've put paramo trousers over completely wet legs and trousers after falling through snow into a hidden tarn. 5 minutes I felt warm again. 15 minutes I started feeling dry. My wicking inner trousers had effectively been dried by my heat and the action of the outer paramo analogy fabric layers.
Imho buffalo and paramo are still great outdoor inventions. They simply work when you're working. Of course you need to wear buffalo against bare skin and tbh I reckon paramo would work better like that too but it's too thin so inner layers are needed
IME buffalo reminds me of analogy clothing in that moisture is actively moved outwards and dissipated on the outer layer. I've put paramo trousers over completely wet legs and trousers after falling through snow into a hidden tarn. 5 minutes I felt warm again. 15 minutes I started feeling dry. My wicking inner trousers had effectively been dried by my heat and the action of the outer paramo analogy fabric layers.
Imho buffalo and paramo are still great outdoor inventions. They simply work when you're working. Of course you need to wear buffalo against bare skin and tbh I reckon paramo would work better like that too but it's too thin so inner layers are needed
TOP
Merino base, polypropylene shirt, wool sweater, Paramo top.
LEGS
Polypropylene longjohns if very cold, polycotton trousers, waterproof overtrousers if very wet or windy.
Merino base, polypropylene shirt, wool sweater, Paramo top.
LEGS
Polypropylene longjohns if very cold, polycotton trousers, waterproof overtrousers if very wet or windy.
Polycotton trousers, why not fully synthetic? I used to buy keela supposedly softshell trousers, but they were simply nylon in a stretch weave. 4 way stretch, whatever that means. They were great because I could buy the correct size for my waist and by trying on a few at my size I could choose the ones with the longest legs. Seriously trousers with the same size would have a different leg length. They were supremely comfortable and weather resistant.
Many people hate fully synthetic trousers but personally I think they're better than polycotton. IMHO cotton in trousers delays the drying if they get wet.
Many people hate fully synthetic trousers but personally I think they're better than polycotton. IMHO cotton in trousers delays the drying if they get wet.
Not much, marketing speak. Normal fabrics have only 2 principal directions.
All (well almost) synthetic fibers are fairly comfortable when the fiber diameter is small enough.
I used to be a highland gamekeeper/deer stalker and we were required to wear full tweeds on shoot/customer days. Depending on the day to day jobs that took place in the same conditions, a lot of guys actually end up ditching the modern materials and just adopting the the plus fours for everyday use. They always ditched the shirt and tie though! Interestingly, because all estates have their own tweed, it would depend on your estate what the benefits and drawbacks were. The last Estate I was on Had an amazing one. You could be completely soaked through and then spend 10 minutes at the top of a hill in the wind and you'd be completely dry. If I could find wool trousers with the same weave/properties but without the obnoxious pattern, that's what I'd be wearing on the hill. As it is I wear those standard green paratrooper trousers which I think are cotton. I just get soaked and deal with it. I know that 'cotton kills' but I don't have an issue putting on a second dry pair and drying the wet ones off by the fire.
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I really like my Buffalo gear, and have used it for decades, but it has to be down towards 0 degrees C, air temp. or via windchill, otherwise I'm way too warm when hiking. I like to run cool, and then put layer(s) on when I stop. Not really tried it yet whilst canoeing. I favour merino as a base layer year-round, even under the Buffalo gear - despite recommendations to the contrary.
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