Clothing that works in sustained Wet conditions

[Billy-o]

4 way stretch, whatever that means.

It means 1) they move left to right, 2) they move up and down, 3) they move backwards and forwards. But because they also move 4) to and fro in time, they also are able to move to the moment before getting wet. It is marketing short-hand for self-drying.

 

[Paul_B]

Montane's version of pertex pile its recommended to wear a base layer. They're basically equivalent so why do buffalo and Montane have different views on base layers underneath.

I know Andy Kirkpatrick believes in no base layer but a good base layer shouldn't be affecting them that much. Polypropylene would of course be the best fabric since it's the best for wicking bar none.

 

[Billy-o]

There's more people using alpha direct w/pertexy stuff now. Rab, Mountain Equipment, Montane. Not sure what Patagonia are using on the new R2 Techface.

Days of olde style Buffalo pile may be waning. Alpha's cheaper, lighter, comfier, reportedly. Wickier, warmer and breathier too

Rab's Flash jacket is intriguing.

 

[Paul_B]

I doubt buffalo will disappear because it simply works. I wore mine when too hot and got sweat patch where rucksack was. Took it off for a snack stop and it was dry in minutes. I've got a variety of softshells that supposedly work well but not that quick.

I've never had alpha though. Isn't it a synthetic insulation like primaloft? If it is I can't see how it's any better at wicking.

 

[Billy-o]

No. Look it up I have a used Rab Alpha Direct on the way. I'll let you know its properties. What I do know is that a new one would cost 250CAD; a Buffalo Belay with a hood, 400CAD.


....and the Flash now really is making me wish I had something burning a hole in my pocket.

 

[Paul_B]

Is it that stuff that first came out in reversible jackets where one way it was wind proof on the outside to give most warmth. Then the other way around the insulation is outside the wind proof layer so you can shed heat. Two Jacket warmth in one.

It's been designed for American special forces. A game changer. Sounds exactly like primaloft all those years back. There's actually not much detail in the polartec website. It looks like primaloft with a tissue style mesh layer to it.

I've worn primaloft as an insulation layer when walking and it keeps you warm but doesn't handle moisture transmission away from your skin. I now only use it as an extra throw on layer when less active such as lunch stops. I'll take persuading on it being different personally. Like primaloft being the game changer, end to down, etc, etc. That was marketing and I'm not convinced alpha isn't all about the marketing again.

I guess I've become old school in that I like the tried and tested like buffalo and doubt that they'll disappear with the new innovations or marketings.

 

[Herman30]

For me it would be simple. In condition with sustained rain and wetness this is my choice, I have this jacket. 100% waterproof but breaths surprisingly well thanks to venting holes in armpit and vent on the back:

Finnish M13 rain jacket

Generous cut to fit over everything else! If you are after a reliable 100% waterproof jacket, this is the one. Check availability and get yours now!

www.varusteleka.com

Because your either sweat or get wet from rain and freeze. There is no middle way. I prefer to sweat and remain warm.

 

[Paul_B]

You seem keen on army surplus kit. I always got the impression armies went for more durability (squaddie proof if there's such a thing) over top end performance. For my use durability has never been an issue.

I've had years of use out of the good quality civilian stuff. I have been curious about surplus if a little put off looking like a soldier wannabe. I've seen people in the hills wearing it but tbh they have been the wannabes. Not least cause these days you can get civilian stuff the match if British army surplus for cheap enough prices.

If you were to recommend one, commonly sourced surplus item to convince someone like me of their merit. What would that be? I'm asking you because I know from other posts that you seem to be an expert in what is available in surplus. Others can obviously join in answering as I'm genuinely interested. I might even put my money on it. Although, without wanting to influence your reply, I am not a fan of cammo. Colour isn't as important as your reply being the best you can think of. I appreciate any time you take to reply and your response. It's sparked my interest the way you and others have recommended surplus consistently.

 

[Herman30]

I buy some 95% of my clothing from Varusteleka. Their stuff looks good, good quality and it works. I don´t like civilan clothes, they don´t have the right details or are too expensive. Or bright colors.

About that wanna-be. Perhaps it is different in countries with professional army like UK?
We have conscript army and almost every male in Finland have gone through military training.

 

[TLM]

My use of surplus started while at the Uni, a lot cheaper than civilian and still reasonable for the purpose. As H30 said here camo does not imply wannabee as almost all have worn it while in service. The NUTS are different and one can fairly easily pick them up. Many countries still have non camo clothing that at least looks fairly good like Austria.

 

[adriatikfan]

For me it would be simple. In condition with sustained rain and wetness this is my choice, I have this jacket. 100% waterproof but breaths surprisingly well thanks to venting holes in armpit and vent on the back:

Finnish M13 rain jacket

Generous cut to fit over everything else! If you are after a reliable 100% waterproof jacket, this is the one. Check availability and get yours now!

www.varusteleka.com

Because your either sweat or get wet from rain and freeze. There is no middle way. I prefer to sweat and remain warm.

What is the sizing like on this jacket please? I am exactly 6 feet tall abd normally take Large but I suspect a Medium of this would be a better fit??

Best Wishes,
David

 

[adriatikfan]

I've found that out and about people do not always respond positively to anyone in full 'camo' set-up of jacket and trousers etc.,

But ... and others' experience may differ - I've found from personal experience that people respond okay to a 'camo' jacket and plain trousers but not so well to 'camo' trousers' and a plain jacket. Who knows why!

The most positive responses I've had almost always have been to German Flecktarn jackets - I think it's because the 'colour' is so dark and the patern so 'dense' it's not quite as much 'in your face' as some jackets can be.

The Finnish jacket linked to above looks quite interesting - from the linked pictures it again looks quite 'dark' in colour and pattern.

Best Wishes,
David

 

[Herman30]

What is the sizing like on this jacket please? I am exactly 6 feet tall abd normally take Large but I suspect a Medium of this would be a better fit??

Best Wishes,
David

Somewhat loose fitting. Did you notice the measurement picture? Measures in centmeters.

PS. I very seldom wear full camo set when not hiking or day tripping in the forest . Mostly camo trousers and single color jacket and single color hat.

 

[SaraR]

With civilian clothing, you need to find a brand that does a model you like, in the fabric you want and with a cut and sizing option that works for you.
With surplus clothing you have more of a chance to find a size that fits you, since they are/were often made in more size combinations. (For guys, at least.) So if you've identified a model you want, chances are that there will be a size/leg length option etc that works for you.

 

[Billy-o]

I've worn primaloft as an insulation layer when walking and it keeps you warm but doesn't handle moisture transmission away from your skin.

Here's a vid exploring the Alpha Direct, Paul_B. It makes a passing comparison to Primaloft and shows Primaloft in the only form I have seen it ... a kind of long-fibre, semi-matted sort of thing

When you wore it right on the skin, was it like this? Was there no liner or anything holding it in place?

The principle of pile wicking seems to be that the fibres need to be relatively short and oriented so that they capillarize sweat directly from the skin to the outside of the jacket. That long-fibre form of Primaloft traps air and therefore insulates well, but doesn't readily provide a wicking function ... which we know.

 

[TLM]

The principle of pile wicking seems to be that the fibres need to be relatively short and oriented so that they capillarize sweat directly from the skin

Capillary forces act in the slit between two fibers and it only acts with the fiber direction. The finer the fibers the more spaces for sweat to be slurped. Shortness is not a requirement. In fact hydrophilic fibers should be better than hyrophobic (phobic in its proper meaning) meaning that acrylic piles should be better than polyester or polypropylene ones.

 

[Paul_B]

I read somewhere or saw on a video, possibly AK's softshell one, that double P style works partly on a physical way in that there's a positive and negative differential which also assists in moisture transmission from inside to the outer layer which then disperses it across a wider area. Basically there's a few mechanisms working in pile lined softshell.

Whatever the case it works for me so far as a technology. What I'm increasingly becoming sure of is that buffalo design isn't great. Or isn't great for me.

I followed the sizing which is helped by the fact my chest size it's a quarter of an inch or less off a specific size they do. However the arms are simply short. I've gone for the length of special 6 shirt but simply put its only the right length. Standard shirt would be simply too short. The paramo of true softshells. Basically the paramo size problem. Although paramo have learnt from criticism and there's now a few jackets of theirs that fit me.

So perhaps I should look at alpha materials. Although it just looks like the latest new thing and not really that special. There's other ways round the problem it's designed to address that's just as good.

Is alpha a fleece or a fibre, synthetic insulation that's strong enough to not need a liner? As in a new kind of fleece?

 

[Billy-o]

To your last question, P_B, manufacturers say absolutely yes and are kind of counting on that proving to be so. The Rab Flash variation seems to either prove their confidence or their willingness to guinea pig it.

But, I think my point here has been that the Rab Alpha Direct is a classic pile and pertex jacket, as are the new examples from Mountain Equipment and Montane (and the Patagonia R2, sort of). With the difference that they are lighter, cheaper (for me), better cut. I think I agree with you that it isn't technically a new thing, but maybe the open-ness of the weave of the Alpha is a bit of a change re. breathability and also with regard to the known problem of the Buffalo being basically too hot to be active in above -5C. Otherwise, same in principle, just of lighter build and designed for more than standing around fettling a rope.

 

[Herman30]

Can´t believe how complicated dressing one self has become if one is to believe everything that is written here.

 

[Billy-o]

Even nappies aren't what they were.

But, there is even there the point that new materials, used properly will keep stuff (whether it is rain, sweat, or pee) away from your blushing and fragile skin. It is just that it has got a bit technical getting it all to work at optimality ... most benefits/least fuss and finance.

I think it is important to at least try and get right. I remember the first really long hike I did as a kid; on a course in a proper cagoule with a rucksack and boots and w/proof trousers and everything. Circa 1972. I was was wet and freezing when the group stopped after four or five hours. We all were. It wasn't raining heavy ... just blowy, October, Brecon drizzle. But the sweat had built up inside the waterproofs, and we were all wearing cotton clothes. Miserable as! If it wasn't for the fact that I had to go back the very next week for what turned out to be a hoot of an orienteering course, I may never have seen the Beacons again