Climate Change & Survival.

[TLM]

There are too many people on the earth; so far I have not seen even a remotely sensible and realizable suggestion how to down size.

Earth climate is changing, it never has been stable; there has been snowball earth and climate several degrees warmer than now. That heat did not kill life on earth, it might have killed something like the present civilization, nobody knows.

I am not at all convinced of the presently pushed data on human influence on climate. The models first have to be able to explain all the past changes (which they so far apparently have not been able to do) and then add the human part. I have not seen that done. Until that happens I take the Climate Frenzy just as another "End of the world" cult and nothing more.

That does not mean that we should not do something. Mainly consume less and design better because we do have that capability. The present economic model used just does not allow that to happen and centrally ordered change has a very bad track record.

I don't know what should be done and I have a bad feeling that nobody does, at least nobody with any sense.

 

[Deleted member 56522]

There is no doubt that the Climate is changing,

It has been for 4.5 billion years. The biggest climate change on the record is the ice-age. The biggest climate change during the modern period of measurement is from 1690 (the ill years in Scotland) till 1730. The next big change will be when the next ice-age starts which I reckon will kill 90% of humanity.

CO2 is not a problem ... plants love it.

 

[Herman30]

You brits talk about how much it rains in the UK, you can´t beat this. They said in a program about Earths history that about 200 milj years ago there was a period when it rained for 1-2 million years non-stop.

 

[TeeDee]

You brits talk about how much it rains in the UK, you can´t beat this. They said in a program about Earths history that about 200 milj years ago there was a period when it rained for 1-2 million years non-stop.

P'ah..

Mizzle.

At best.

 

[Corso]

CO2 is not a problem ... plants love it.

Indeed

 

[Tengu]

Lets not think about Britain being covered with ice down to the Thames.

it will happen...someday.

 

[billycoen]

Frost Fairs are nothing new,been going on for centuries...

 

[nigelp]

Keep going so I can fully complete my Bull£&it Bingo card on climate change denial.

 

[Toddy]

To be honest, I don't think it's possible for the first world, those of us who live in a temperate, i.e. sodden wet and on the chilly side, climate to live without burning extra fuel for heat and light. I think that's a totally unfeasible ambition.
That we are slowly changing our fuel sources, windpower, hydro, etc., is a good thing though, and our electronics are becoming more and more efficient.

So, little by little, inch by inch, we're aware of the issues, but haranging folks just gets their backs up. Explain, show alternatives, encourage and more folk quietly just get on the inch by inch thing too.

I am old enough to remember belching factory chimneys, rain so filthy that washing caught out in it had to be re-washed. Fog so thick with filth that it was yellow.
We've changed that, and so has much of the 'first' world, maybe if pressure was put upon those countries which still spew filth, as well as encouraging us to be more aware, might not be a bad thing.

On that note, like many others I'm really conscious of the fossil fuels that I use, and then there's the utter waste that is F1 racing....and huge great p. e. cars, yachts, etc., and the space joyrides, and I wonder about whether my miniscule contribution actually matters at all.

We need encouragement. Our buildings are clean now, gutters don't run with black soot, the rain is clean.....and much of that was just getting rid of open fires. That was encouraging.

 

[TLM]

A bingo fan or cultist?

It most probably is the sun.
If I remember correctly Mann graph somehow forgot the Medieval heat.
Temp record is imprecise not necessary unreliable, a very important distinction.
One can check fairly easily how bad Al Gores track record of predictions is.
Models do not, probably cannot take into consideration all relevant effects, again very different from being unreliable, though the end effect is quite close.

One must never underestimate how good a way this has been to some "scientists" for getting grant money for quite some while now.

If the effect of human influence on climate is real, Chine and India should be kicked in their rears to stop burning all that coal inefficiently.

But whatdoIknow, I am just a retired engineer.

 

[TLM]

To be honest, I don't think it's possible for the first world, those of us who live in a temperate, i.e. sodden wet and on the chilly side, climate to live without burning extra fuel for heat and light. I think that's a totally unfeasible ambition.

I don't know how large a difference it would make in energy consumption if British housing were built to Nordic standards. Quite a bit I think. Actually that would be overkill, 2/3 would be enough.

 

[Toddy]

I agree wholeheartedly about the housing standards.

The UK is still caught in the dilemma of stone, brick, or whatever 'latest idea' has been since the 50's.

My great grandfather was a building contractor/engineer and the stone built cottages that his company put up are still in use over 130 years later. They're lovely wee houses, but they had stone floors, cooking ranges, no central heating, no insulation, single paned windows (and no inside toilet/bathroom) Pretty much standard for their time.
How the hang do you insulate and make those up to modern standards ? There are houses round here, not just the big houses, just ordinary little ones, that are four hundred years old.
That's normal in the UK.

My own home was built in the 1970's to the standards of the time, but even upgrading it has issues. They lagged pipes (and heaven help us but all internal pipes are made of stainless steel and a nightmare to alter plumbing) but that was the entirety of insulation.

My brother's home was built in the 1960's and it's entirely different again. Cavity wall 'insulation', back boiler in the coal fireplace, etc., upgrading it is even more problematical than mine.

Thing is you see, that changing the insulation, and removing all draughts, cuts the air-flow in the houses. We live in a damp climate, if we don't have airflow we have mould.

Changing our housing stock to suit modern lifestyles isn't as straightforward as it might seem.

 

[TLM]

Thing is you see, that changing the insulation, and removing all draughts, cuts the air-flow in the houses. We live in a damp climate, if we don't have airflow we have mould.

Changing our housing stock to suit modern lifestyles isn't as straightforward as it might seem.

Few things in this life are as straightforward as at first glance seems, I quite agree and that tends to hold in engineering too.

While our problems with moisture in buildings are slightly different I think the same type of solutions still would work. Basically that is forced ventilation, one way or another.

Some old brick or stone houses are impractical to reinsulate, the price would be prohibitive and the house in most cases would not look the same. A "light" version of forced ventilation on the other hand is fairly easy and cheap.

The fight against mold is mostly quite simple, keep indoor moisture low enough one way or another.

The idea of drastical changes to building codes would be to new houses, old ones could in same cases go through a very much lighter version but I suspect that large part of the old houses just have to stay as they are. I wonder if air-to air heat pumps have really been tried, the modern ones heat, cool and dehumidify with quite high efficiency, that could be one way to control moisture.

 

[Suffolkrafter]

If the effect of human influence on climate is real, Chine and India should be kicked in their rears to stop burning all that coal inefficiently.

There's no if about it. To be blunt, its like trying to argue the earth's flat.
Regarding China and India, something that hasn't been mentioned in comments so far, and which is worth considering, is the extent to which out emissions are outsourced, something which is often omitted from the numbers.

 

[British Red]

There's no if about it. To be blunt, its like trying to argue the earth's flat.
Regarding China and India, something that hasn't been mentioned in comments so far, and which is worth considering, is the extent to which out emissions are outsourced, something which is often omitted from the numbers.

It's also worth noting that India's CO2 emissions, per person, is less than half that of the United Kingdom. China's is far less, per person, than the USA. I don't really understand how that gives us any high ground to criticise them from?

Carbon Footprint by Country 2024

 

[Toddy]

It's the state of the emissions though.

Our factories must take measures to control particulates, toxic gases and the like. Standards aren't so stringent elsewhere.
Much like health and safety measures.
It all adds to the costs though, and so long as we demand the lowest price instead of best practice, that's not going to encourage change, is it ?

The childbirth rates are another issue entirely. Similarly that it's unfeasible to demand that the expectations of those in the 'third' world to attain the 'first' world's standards for health, education, etc., ought to be curtailed to improve their pollution issues.

I don't believe that there is any quick fix. I think it needs incremental improvements, growing awareness, and an greater belief that just because we can, doesn't mean we should, about a lot of stuff.

I think our children's children will still be struggling with these issues.

Little by little, we can move mountains, or clean up our world

 

[TLM]

Coal power plants in Helsinki work at an efficiency of about double that in most of Europe. The reason is district heating that utilizes what is considered waste heat in many places, it is practical only in cities.

 

[Toddy]

Not far from us there used to be a factory that used it's waste heat to grow tomatoes. The tomatoes tasted lovely but they were still very much more expensive than the cheap wasserbomb imports from Spain.....where they have lots of free natural sunshine.
The factory closed and the glasshouses weren't economically viable.

It seems it all comes down to money at the end.

 

[TLM]

It's also worth noting that India's CO2 emissions, per person, is less than half that of the United Kingdom. China's is far less, per person, than the USA. I don't really understand how that gives us any high ground to criticise them from?

As I understand it that is one part, last I checked almost all "western" countries have CO² going down and India and especially Chine going up.

 

[RichardJackson]

As I understand it that is one part, last I checked almost all "western" countries have CO² going down and India and especially Chine going up.

China and Indias' CO2 is going up for sure; partly through manufacturing goods for 'us' and partly through rising living standards towards those 'we' have enjoyed for years and which we won't surrender. From this I deduce I can't blame 'them'.

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