camping sucks

[santaman2000]

But it is EXACTLY these conditions that cause greatest risk of injury from exposure. It can be as wet as you like, if it's also warm (tropics), or as cold as can be, if it's dry (high altitude/latitude), but when it's temperate and wet, beware....


...Also of interest may be the trans-Atlantic difference in attitudes to denim historically. In the US it was always serious workwear: tough stuff for life outdoors. This is how ranchers (like my Grandfather) viewed it, and it still holds something of that reputation. In Europe however, it has never really been viewed that way to the same degree, and basically took off as a fashion item, much more recently. This too may affect the general attitude.

-If you read my posts again, you'll see that those experiences I describe were both wet and cold. Spending 2 weeks at a time in mountain deer hunting camp in the Humbolt Mountains in wet snow at an average altitude of 8000ft in November. It's just part of life.

-Your second point is extremely accurate and seems to echo my last post.

 

[Samon]

That's like me saying that the weather in North America is always nice because that is MY experience of it. I live in the Cairngorms and not only have we had winds of almost 100mph, we've had 5 feet of snow and -28c in winter and highs of almost 40c in summer. Rain comes in biblical amounts, both vertical and horizontal. Windchill is a major factor in causing hypothermia and death for those daft enough to wear inappropriate clothing on our mountains, and wearing denim is good for one thing only - identifying in advance those who will require the services of the Mountain Rescue boys.

I don't think many people outside of Britain understand the intense diversities of weather we experience over here. A few hours drive from those places and you won't experience such ferrocious weather conditions!

and although jeans may have started as a cowboy thing, it's now a common fashion/function day wear for the all the people I know, including myself here in Britain!

 

[santaman2000]

That's like me saying that the weather in North America is always nice because that is MY experience of it. I live in the Cairngorms and not only have we had winds of almost 100mph, we've had 5 feet of snow and -28c in winter and highs of almost 40c in summer. Rain comes in biblical amounts, both vertical and horizontal. Windchill is a major factor in causing hypothermia and death for those daft enough to wear inappropriate clothing on our mountains, and wearing denim is good for one thing only - identifying in advance those who will require the services of the Mountain Rescue boys.

If you say so. Funny though, the volunteer rescue services over here usually wear denim.

 

[santaman2000]

I don't think many people outside of Britain understand the intense diversities of weather we experience over here. A few hours drive from those places and you won't experience such ferrocious weather conditions!

and although jeans may have started as a cowboy thing, it's now a common fashion/function day wear for the all the people I know, including myself here in Britain!

-Jeans started as miners' clothing actually and quickly spread to the cowboys.

I wish you could visit Las Vegas. A half hour drive to the Southeast and you can go water-skiing on Lake Mead in the morning. Then home for lunch and a 40 minute drive North to go snow-skiing on Mt Charleston the same afternoon. All within view of the Mojave Desert.

 

[Dartmoor navigator]

I suspect you've hit the nail on the head, "...totally shunned by that social group..." Face it; it has nothing to do with suitability, jeans just aren't British.

Neither are you, but I don't shun you sweetie

It is nothing to do with 'fashion ethinicity'. There are better textiles available.

 

[santaman2000]

Neither are you, but I don't shun you sweetie

It is nothing to do with 'fashion ethinicity'. There are better textiles available.

There are "other" textiles available. Some may be better, but not at an affordable price (kevlar is attrociously expensive)

 

[Everything Mac]

Is this thread starting to really bug anyone else?

So let's put aside the snobbery for one second shall we?

We all wear jeans. I wear them, you wear them. If you don't that's your choice for what ever reason.
I wear them at work (I work in the offshore oil industry btw- and I can assure you it can be high intensity) and I've worn them to do other things including volunteering on a project building a Viking longhouse.

They are tough. They are hard wearing. And yes if they get wet they tend to stay wet but a lot of the time you simply have to man up and put up with it for a while until you finish the job and can go home to tea and medals.

Obviously santaman is approaching this from a US point of view where wet jeans will probably dry quite quickly, so whats the big deal if he does wear them?

There is an awful lot of "I'm right, you're wrong" going on here.


In the UK it's all about layers. Good base layers and potentaily a waterproof too. Quick drying fabrics are great, I've had a pair for about 4 years now, but they do lose the ability over time. They take a lot longer to dry now than they did. Mine have a fleece lining, great for colder weather but useless in warmer weather.

This is where surplus gear comes into its own IMO, a downpour will leave you wet but you dry quickly.

Andy

 

[santaman2000]

...In the UK it's all about layers. Good base layers and potentaily a waterproof too...

We're more in agreement than I think most realize. Yes, I like jeans. But I would never go into cold weather without also wearing a base layer under said jeans; as I stated upstream in the thread.

 

[hobbes]

There are "other" textiles available. Some may be better, but not at an affordable price (kevlar is attrociously expensive)

I think we know that the choice is hardly limited to denim and kevlar...

If drying speed is how we define better, then any polycotton is better than denim, and any pure synthetic is better again. Wool is warmer when wet that cotton. Of course there are many other criteria for defining 'better'. Most of us would include durability, cost, perhaps fashion. But the point being made by most of the above posts about British hill conditions is that there are better fabrics available for staying dry and safe.

 

[cbr6fs]

Andy,

The reason my opinion is so strong is because i have had first hand experience of how inappropriate clothing can put people in danger when out in the mountains.

If we were talking about car camping or out walking around a town i don't care what anyone wears and i expect the same.

Problem is, if a noob reads this thread and think to themselves "it must be ok to go out hiking in Jeans cause these guys say so" at best they're going to have an extremely uncomfortable and miserable experience and at worst if the conditions really turn they could be in serious difficulty.


So yes i agree in most cases people should wear what ever they want.
If they are hiking in remote areas in places where the weather changes quickly or is damp (the UK) then Jeans are an extremely poor choice and we as responsible members should not be advising noobs to wear them.


Can they wear them = yes
Could they possibly wear them and be okish = yes

My Grandad smoked 2 packets a day and came home ****** pretty much every night for most of his life, he died in his 80's.
Did he "get away with it"? = yes
Would i "advise" my kids to live like that = nope

You might be ok wearing Jeans wilderness hiking, BUT there are FAR better solutions out there with which you will be more comfortable and less at risk.

 

[santaman2000]

I think we know that the choice is hardly limited to denim and kevlar...

If drying speed is how we define better, then any polycotton is better than denim, and any pure synthetic is better again. Wool is warmer when wet that cotton. Of course there are many other criteria for defining 'better'. Most of us would include durability, cost, perhaps fashion. But the point being made by most of the above posts about British hill conditions is that there are better fabrics available for staying dry and safe.

For outdoor wear, better is defined on toughness, durability, and the associated ability to protect the wearer from thorns and rock scrapes. That leaves denim, leather, kevlar, waxed cotton, and heavy cordura. And maybe chain mail.

 

[Dartmoor navigator]

For outdoor wear, better is defined on toughness, durability, and the associated ability to protect the wearer from thorns and rock scrapes. That leaves denim, leather, kevlar, waxed cotton, and heavy cordura. And maybe chain mail.

Dude, 'outdoor' is a broad church. Expectations differ; perhaps agreeing to disagree would be the best way forward.

 

[cbr6fs]

For outdoor wear, better is defined on toughness, durability, and the associated ability to protect the wearer from thorns and rock scrapes. That leaves denim, leather, kevlar, waxed cotton, and heavy cordura. And maybe chain mail.

So heat retention, quick drying and not getting hypothermia are obviously low on your list of priorities then?


*edit
Came out sarcastic and i didn't mean it to, sorry.

 

[HillBill]

He lives in a hot place. So i expect the answer would be yes.

So heat retention, quick drying and not getting hypothermia are obviously low on your list of priorities then?


*edit
Came out sarcastic and i didn't mean it to, sorry.

 

[Everything Mac]

Andy,

The reason my opinion is so strong is because i have had first ......

Don't get me wrong mate. I whole heartedly agree. I'd never wear jeans on a serious trek. And I'd be taking a base layer at the very least depending on the conditions.

I'm just saying that jeans aren't enemy number one for day to day stuff or a summer overnighter in the uk. (assuming dry weather)

Perhaps this thread should be steered towards what should be worn, the importance of layers and how to stay warm in a good sleeping bag.


As has been pointed out, money is a major factor. I can't afford the high end fabrics, that's where surplus kit comes in handy coupled with long johns and a waterproof outer if needed.

Andy

 

[santaman2000]

So heat retention, quick drying and not getting hypothermia are obviously low on your list of priorities then?


*edit
Came out sarcastic and i didn't mean it to, sorry.

1. Preventing hypothermia is as simple as taking off wet clothing and getting into a sleeping bag. Just like they teach in SERE school.

2. Heat retention is as simple as wearing a good set of long johns (and yes, I like wool or polypropylene for those) Or are your pants your only piece of clothing?

3. Quick drying? Irrelevant if you get wet again in 5 minutes.

4. As HillBill pointed out, #1 & #2 or totally irrelevant in hot weather anyway.

And no, I don't mean to be sarcastic either.

 

[santaman2000]

He lives in a hot place. So i expect the answer would be yes.

LOL. To a point yes. But again, look back upthread. i didn't always live in a hot climate.

 

[cbr6fs]

He lives in a hot place. So i expect the answer would be yes.

So do i

Trust me, Jeans in hot climates are not life threatening but they are still a terrible terrible choice and mega uncomfortable, even for sitting around drinking beer in.

Don't get me wrong mate. I whole heartedly agree. I'd never wear jeans on a serious trek. And I'd be taking a base layer at the very least depending on the conditions.

I'm just saying that jeans aren't enemy number one for day to day stuff or a summer overnighter in the uk. (assuming dry weather)

Perhaps this thread should be steered towards what should be worn, the importance of layers and how to stay warm in a good sleeping bag.


As has been pointed out, money is a major factor. I can't afford the high end fabrics, that's where surplus kit comes in handy coupled with long johns and a waterproof outer if needed.

Andy

Thing is though Andy the thread was started by a op that had a miserable and cold night out.

Part of the reason he had a miserable night out was because of a bad choice of sleeping mat and because he was wearing Jeans.

It makes absolutely no difference at all if you wear a base layer under your jeans if they are soaked.
That could be from rain but it could also be from sweat.

An active day hiking builds up sweat on warmer days, as Jeans take hours or even days to dry in some climates if you then continue wearing your jeans in the night you'll inevitably get cold.

Preventing hypothermia is as simple as taking off wet clothing and getting into a sleeping bag. Just like they teach in SERE school.

Heat retention is as simple as wearing a good set of long johns (and yes, I like wool or polypropylene for those) Or are your pants your only piece of clothing?

Quick drying? Irrelevant if you get wet again in 5 minutes.

Didn't help the op have a nice comfortable night though did it mate?

Plus how many people take a sleeping bag on a day hike?
If you were expecting colder or wetter weather surely you'd be better off just wearing the appropriate clothing, i.e. not Jeans?

Sorry if i'm coming across a bit strong here mate, i know we've disagreed before and managed to keep iot light hearted.
It's just on this subject i feel very very strongly about it.

So if i come across as being a bit too strong or a bit sarcastic i apologise and can assure you i have the utmost respect for you, your experience and your opinions :You_Rock_



Cheers
Mark

 

[hobbes]

Preventing hypothermia is as simple as taking off wet clothing and getting into a sleeping bag. Just like they teach in SERE school.

A few assumptions there I think

 

[Rabbitsmacker]

I know this doesn't relate to mountainous stuff or cold weather of European and northern standard, but I'm sure I've read first hand accounts of US navy seals using black Levi's in preference to the issue fatigues in Vietnam. Their robustness and fit outperformed the cotton baggies in the getting in and out of small boats, scrambling thru thick hostile brush and keeping the nasties out when on river ambush and recondo ops. I suppose scrambling about as a youngster mum put us into jeans for a reason, we destroyed anything else. Yes cold and wet legs prevailed when out in the woods in the rain in denims, but I've been the same in issue gear and my thin crag hoppers stuff. Personally I think your in the soft brown stuff if your out for long spells and you get soaked whatever the gear. And I don't attempt to take lightweight stuff rough shooting because the thick strong stuff works better. Can you imagine pushing through brambles and holly bushes in thin craghoppers? No thanks.

But then, isn't the key to all this to get out there and just enjoy, if you enjoy doing it in denims and they work for you and you know the limitations then how is that different from doing it in hi tech gear? Each to his own. Bet Derek the caveman would swap his loin cloth for some 501s!