Campfire ban being discussed in Cairngorms

[Toddy]

Cairngorms National Park to consult on bylaw banning campfires

Concerns were raised earlier this year about the damage being caused in the Cairngorms by campfires.

www.bbc.co.uk

Too many numpties
The damage though is not acceptable, not reasonable.

Why do they have to despoil that which they supposedly come to enjoy ?

 

[Woody girl]

Cairngorms National Park to consult on bylaw banning campfires

Concerns were raised earlier this year about the damage being caused in the Cairngorms by campfires.

www.bbc.co.uk

Too many numpties
The damage though is not acceptable, not reasonable.

Why do they have to despoil that which they supposedly come to enjoy ?

Because they have never been taught to be responsible, are never taught the consequences of their behavior, and never held to account for obnoxious behavior.
Consequently, they don't care.
The rest of us suffer.

 

[Paul_B]

At the risk of going against the grain here, but in the UK shouldn't the leave no trace ethic mean we really should not be having open fires anyway in such places? Even woodburning camp stoves can scorch the ground. I did read somewhere that scorched earth takes a long time for the health of the earth to return. It's not just about veg regrowth but organisms returning to the damaged and barren scorched earth.

Just a thought!

 

[Woody girl]

I use woodburning twig stoves as an alternative to having an open fire, but I always protect the ground underneath, so by simply understanding the consequences of the action of putting such a stove straight on to the ground, I use common sense and mitigate it. Voila, no damage, no trace.
Sometimes all it takes, is to stop a minute, and think about the problem.
The way I solve a lot of problems is to work backwards in my mind.
I see no fire scar,
Why is there no fire scar,?

because the ground was protected by not putting it directly on the ground,

So what do I need to do to attain that?

Put something underneath, to protect the area.

What can I use to do that with?

1) Carry an old cake baking tin and put it underneath.
2) Raise it up on a home made stand(Kelly kettle)
3)Find a stone, or make a stone platform to put it on.
I think it's called critical thinking. I often solve problems by imagining the end result, and working backwards to the solution, instead of trying to push through a fog of problems with no idea where I might end up.
It was a way of thinking I was taught on a permaculture course, and I must admit, it instantly made perfect sense to me, and I often find a solution much quicker.
As for the problem of fire scars in those lovely wild spaces, the default thinking is, ban them and they will go away.
They won't.
So, what do we want to see?
People enjoying the great outdoors, and maybe sitting round a campfire having fun.
So designated properly built areas where people can go and do that, such as they have in American wilderness areas.
They can be monitored, and problems nipped in the bud early.
Meanwhile, the rest of us sensible lot, can get on with doing it properly, in peace!

 

[Pattree]

Carry an old cake baking tin and put it underneath.

A while ago Tesco were selling a small folding table that packed into a bag.
It was absolute carp! I burned the elastic that held it together and bent the fragile legs but…….

I now use the four aluminium slats, two lengths of M4 threaded rod and butterfly nuts to make a kitchen base for my kettles. I’m a car camper but it doesn’t weigh much anyway.



(Those cheap gas fired stoves burn a grass surface too.)

 

[Paul_B]

I have a few soldering mats for under even can top stoves but certainly meths burners and woodburners. Even the trangia stove can scorch the ground if you rum it on gas, plus I'm terrible at spilling meths so better for that to burn off on a glass fabric mat than the ground.

Imho glass mats underneath are better than heat conducting aluminium foil. Soldering mats are available on eBay for less than £5 for 8x10 inch mats. Big enough for most camping stoves. If you've got a fire pit then I know a company that sells 600mm diameter versions for fire pits. We've got one. Go on ebay and search bbq or chimney mats as well as soldering or plumbing mats. Cheaper than Wickes and DIY places which sell smaller mats for £8-10.

The issue with open fires, you have one and you might responsibly tidy up, but if there's a sign of it left the others might have one there too. Sooner or later it's going to be a mess. Why have open fires when you can take steps to have a fire without leaving damage.

PS damage can be down to hear too. It's not just vegetation burnt that's the issue but heat damage to the soil and the soil ecosystem. I once heard about the biomass of nematodes in soil is significant. I can't remember how much but it was compared to the mass of something above the soil that you can see. After heat damage no nemotodes! They're a very important part of the ecosystem. Indeed a friend contributed to the evidence of climate change in his PhD where he measured nemotode populations in upland areas. Actually a set of very good indicator species for climate change apparently. Microscopic but significant, I find that crazy amazing.

 

[jcr71]

I did read somewhere that scorched earth takes a long time for the health of the earth to return. It's not just about veg regrowth but organisms returning to the damaged and barren scorched earth.

dont third worlders use slash-and-burn farming in the rain forests?
where they just raze an area then plant crops in the ashes.

 

[Pattree]

Yes - but:-
1. The damage to the soil biome is shallow.
2. They have no intention of replanting the forest species whose symbionts (essential soil borne partner species such as specific fungi and bacteria) they have destroyed.
3. Slash and burn only lasts a few years. When the land is depleted the farmers move on and burn more. Eventually, if left alone, the forest rejuvenates.

A constant succession of tourists /adventurers burning holes in the forest floor for recreation can’t be justifiable. Lighting fires among tree roots as I have seen on Haughmond Hill and The Ercall should be a capital offence!!!!!!

btw - a research paper last year showed that there’s very little forest anywhere on Earth that is totally free of evidence for ancient human management.

 

[Tengu]

I have seen some ridiculously large fires lit in Scotland.

There are council staff out to help, but the land is so big.

The metal BBQ stands on picnic tables are a good idea.

 

[Paul_B]

dont third worlders use slash-and-burn farming in the rain forests?
where they just raze an area then plant crops in the ashes.

Yes but they don't need a healthy soil ecosystem but burn grow and move on aiui. Take amazon, burn to clear, Ash probably feeds the crops too. Then you grow and farm animals until the soil is denuded and rain washes a lot of goodness away. They then leave it to burn a new area. It can take some time to recover despite the growing time is year round. However it won't be equivalent to virgin forest for years.

In the UK fells the ground is often pretty low in nutrients for plants. Remove the organisms that bring the nutrients into the soil from organic matter it'll not recover as quick. Or at least that's what I think the nematode guy said.

Anyway, In the UK less than a tenner gives you a safety net to help insulate the soil from your camping zone. Why wouldn't you use it?

 

[stonepark]

The scientific evidence is out there that in the uplands, between 60% to 65% of upland fires are caused by so called "managed burns" either for grazing or grouse shooting.

The remaining 35% to 40% include all other causes, including lightening strikes, glass fires, arson, and accidental causes such as discarded cigarettes and camping.

Most people do take care of their camp fires correctly and\or barbecues etc. There is no reason to ban it generally as Cairngorms etc seek to do.

This push to focus on camping as the source of the problem is not dealing with the main source of the wildfires and is often being used by landowners to push for conditions which prevent others from enjoying activities such as camping with a fire, even though landowner activities are the main source of wild fire in the uplands by far.

In the lowlands, arson is the main cause but in the lowlands, areas are normally restricted as to burn (often due to vegetation types) and accessible to fire brigade.

Why should legitimate campers be punished for criminals (arsonists) when they will commit arson no matter what laws are in place?

 

[Paul_B]

It's not that open campfires produce wildfire situations but that it cannot help to cause damage no matter how smallit seems. Also, they are an unnecessary luxury as part of our modern world's free time. You do not need them to cook or survive in any way in the UK. Why would you really need an open fire in British uplands?

Leave no trace, using camping stoves raised off the ground with suitable, cheap and very light kit such as glass fibre soldering mats. You can still satisfy your desire for fire with camping woodburning stoves from the basic honey stove to the wood gasifiers. You can even get fireballs. If they're bigger sized then ebay has larger gf mats sold for BBQs, firepits and chimneys use at home.

Banning open fires Isn't penalising legitimate campers but is a reaction to the irresponsible. It is also highlighting the fact that it doesn't stop legitimate outdoors people from enjoying the outdoors, you will find there's enough enjoyment being in uplands without bushcraft TV!

PS bushcraft TV is kind of apt imho. Just like at home people tend to be stuck in front of the gogglebox, or as it used to be called boobtube, some people can't be by without bushcraft TV. I personally preferred to look out at the countryside I'm in until too dark to see. Then if clear, look to the v stars even far off human lights. Then early to sleep to enjoy the next day from early o'clock to make the most of the day. Just my preference.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy having a fire but that's usually confined to home, campsites that have fire facility / permissions or other places (such as when I helped out with my son's cubs). The campfire has its charms. I just see it as a luxury confined to appropriate places. The fact that's being enforced, if it really is, because of numpties who abuse the old system doesn't affect me. I already chose not to have fires that this law would affect.

 

[nigelp]

It's not that open campfires produce wildfire situations but that it cannot help to cause damage no matter how smallit seems. Also, they are an unnecessary luxury as part of our modern world's free time. You do not need them to cook or survive in any way in the UK. Why would you really need an open fire in British uplands?

Leave no trace, using camping stoves raised off the ground with suitable, cheap and very light kit such as glass fibre soldering mats. You can still satisfy your desire for fire with camping woodburning stoves from the basic honey stove to the wood gasifiers. You can even get fireballs. If they're bigger sized then ebay has larger gf mats sold for BBQs, firepits and chimneys use at home.

Banning open fires Isn't penalising legitimate campers but is a reaction to the irresponsible. It is also highlighting the fact that it doesn't stop legitimate outdoors people from enjoying the outdoors, you will find there's enough enjoyment being in uplands without bushcraft TV!

PS bushcraft TV is kind of apt imho. Just like at home people tend to be stuck in front of the gogglebox, or as it used to be called boobtube, some people can't be by without bushcraft TV. I personally preferred to look out at the countryside I'm in until too dark to see. Then if clear, look to the v stars even far off human lights. Then early to sleep to enjoy the next day from early o'clock to make the most of the day. Just my preference.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy having a fire but that's usually confined to home, campsites that have fire facility / permissions or other places (such as when I helped out with my son's cubs). The campfire has its charms. I just see it as a luxury confined to appropriate places. The fact that's being enforced, if it really is, because of numpties who abuse the old system doesn't affect me. I already chose not to have fires that this law would affect.

Quite agree. If you don’t own the land then you have no right to light a fire on it.

Nothing draws the attention or ire of a landowner than a fire. Stealthy wild camping needs discretion.

I only use my ‘fire’ stoves and boxes in the winter and usually only at specific locations like on the canal side when I canoe or cycle. I used to use them a lot but I find it harder to justify when the countryside is tinder dry in summer.

They have a Public Spaces Protection Order in the New Forest (following the one in Wareham etc) now that not only prohibits fires and BQ’s but also camping stoves etc. No fines issued this year but lots of warnings. Of course if you are using stove away from certain areas responsibly then it’s very unlikely you will be seen.

The Peak District has a similar ban and although I don’t like the idea of blanket bans it gives the rangers, wardens, etc some power to stop folk using them.

 

[Chris]

I’m always much more of a fan of educating and encouraging responsible use rather than ‘ban this, ban that’. Sharp things: banned. Fires: banned. What next, the wheel?

A lot of us were lucky to grow up before it was so hard to access woodland and where it was more normal to make responsible fires and enjoy the outdoors. Personally I think we should be encouraging the sensible and safe enjoyment of this craft. In fact, it is our responsibility to do so, lest the skills and the joy it brings be consigned to the history books.

Let’s get real about how hard it is for young people to own woodland, or convince a farmer to let them use some. I don’t think it’s fair to blame them for how hard land is to access without significant capital. There should be more managed land available where people are allowed to do this and also educated to do this properly. Lighting a fire for yourself and using it to stay warm, cook, get rid of mosquitoes and dry your clothes is one of the most basic and essential human capabilities.

Banning everything risks those who already got to a point in life where they had the experience, or own the land, starting to gate keep this wonderful craft from the youngsters who would so benefit from becoming involved in it.

 

[Ozmundo]

Because as usual people only think of themselves. “I’m only have one small fire,it won’t be a problem”, same attitude as littering etc.

I seems to me the more folks feel constrained in their everyday lives the more they f@£kabout when away from that. Or they could just be idiots.

 

[William_Montgomery]

Once again this desire to ban something, rather than actually addressing the problem.
I suspect one of the main reasons for careless fires is precisely because most people don't have the opportunity to have one, or learn the associated skills to do so.
It's a real shame because most people would thrive on the responsibility, given the chance.

 

[Paul_B]

I disagree. People are obviously aware of how to light fires. The idea that people lighting a fire at their wildcamp and drinking a few beers or more need education is a bit missing the point. They're out to socialise and have fun.

Actually, I kind of see some of their activities bend shared with many outdoors types from wildcampers to bushcrafters. I bet i could go through this site and read threads talking about meeting up and having ai few drinks round a fire. If you took that fire away you'd have the same people, the same drinks and the same social event just without a fire. I see nothing wrong with that.

If you want to educate well there are paid campsites that allow fires. There's also various groups that have locations you can have fires in. My local scout section has a site that is used by them but they also rent it out to groups. If you have a need to teach fire skills then perhaps these places would allow that and uncontrolled camping with fire in the wider countryside is not needed.

Although I don't really see the need for these skills to need uncontrolled leisure fires in the wilds in order for them to survive. It's not education reasons people go into the woods or fells or lochsides to camp out and have fires. So that argument in my opinion is really a side issue that is a very small minority of fires. Be honest, it's personal entertainment as much as keeping your skills going.

BTW I have done the vast majority of my outdoors activities in the lakes. I've seen many popular wild camping spots trashed by rubbish, toilet paper and defecation a big thing but also empty tins,, cans and nappies. I've also seen bare earth where campers have had a fire. Whenever I see a stone fire ring I disperse the stones or occasionally turn it into a cairn. However a few camp spots I've seen these scorch rings last years. I hope they ban them in the lakes too

 

[GreyCat]

Taking responsibility seems to be the key.

Unfortunately, when a significant minority of folks have been conditioned to know their "rights" but have no concept of their responsibilities, we get irresponsible behaviour and a ban ensures. Probably because a ban is easier that dealing with the cause, i.e. the need to bring people up to have a sense of responsibility (and be able to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions) part of which is having had the chance to take risks- and learn from them- too.

When I was a bairn, my dad spent several years as an outdoor instructor in the Lake District. Different times, but he always held that what the scrotiest of kids (boys)- typically from the rougher council estates in the Newcastle area- needed was some tough love: proper challenge, boundaries, a bit of risk and then praise (they they knew they'd earned) when they pitted themselves against something primal- weather, steep hills, darkness etc- and succeeded.

His view was that the roughest of lads got the most from the experience and they learned in a practical way about responsibility (and about actions having consequences). Although note that this approach worked not through mollycoddling, but in large part because the (all male) team of instructors maintained a strict but fair discipline. Then we got into the 80's, the funding was removed and the sort of place he worked at vanished.

As a society, we reap what we sow and we're reaping the consequence of ~20 years or more of the growth of a person-centred no-responsibility culture.

GC

 

[William_Montgomery]

I disagree. People are obviously aware of how to light fires. The idea that people lighting a fire at their wildcamp and drinking a few beers or more need education is a bit missing the point. They're out to socialise and have fun.

Actually, I kind of see some of their activities bend shared with many outdoors types from wildcampers to bushcrafters. I bet i could go through this site and read threads talking about meeting up and having ai few drinks round a fire. If you took that fire away you'd have the same people, the same drinks and the same social event just without a fire. I see nothing wrong with that.

If you want to educate well there are paid campsites that allow fires. There's also various groups that have locations you can have fires in. My local scout section has a site that is used by them but they also rent it out to groups. If you have a need to teach fire skills then perhaps these places would allow that and uncontrolled camping with fire in the wider countryside is not needed.

Although I don't really see the need for these skills to need uncontrolled leisure fires in the wilds in order for them to survive. It's not education reasons people go into the woods or fells or lochsides to camp out and have fires. So that argument in my opinion is really a side issue that is a very small minority of fires. Be honest, it's personal entertainment as much as keeping your skills going.

BTW I have done the vast majority of my outdoors activities in the lakes. I've seen many popular wild camping spots trashed by rubbish, toilet paper and defecation a big thing but also empty tins,, cans and nappies. I've also seen bare earth where campers have had a fire. Whenever I see a stone fire ring I disperse the stones or occasionally turn it into a cairn. However a few camp spots I've seen these scorch rings last years. I hope they ban them in the lakes too

I disagree. Educating younger generations and instilling a sense of freedom and responsibility is far more preferable and the results are far more effective. I'm surprised that's even up for debate. It works exactly the same as on an individual basis.

 

[Paul_B]

You don't need a fire to teach responsibility. Even responsible people do the wrong things.