camouflage why it works (or not) what insights do any one have on this?

[loz.]

What i was taught

Shape
Shine
Shadow
SILHOUETTE
Spacing
Silence
Spring

ie Your need to breakup your shape, A man dressed in DPM still looks like a man - break the outline.

Cover your shiny buttons with Matt tape, don't polish the boots, keep binocular / camera caps on till needed.

Your shadow can cast for miles dependent on your elevation, the moon etc .. blah - take care, as for silhouette don't walk on top of them ridges, or mounds !!

handful's of people - don't be exactly 5 feet apart or you look like a line of dominoes - nature has no such spacing.

silence - obvious

spring - ie movement slow, thoughtful, dont bounce around the pklace !!!!

 

[mr dazzler]

handful's of people - don't be exactly 5 feet apart or you look like a line of dominoes - nature has no such spacing.

On some camo pattern's I noticed they look more like wall paper where it repeats every 12 or 18 inche's or so and would appear to be easier to notice and pick up, as nature doesnt repeat regularly like that, every bit of it is similar but unique. Is that crude repetition down to poor design or limited availability of technology (or small budget?)

 

[loz.]

On some camo pattern's I noticed they look more like wall paper where it repeats every 12 or 18 inche's or so and would appear to be easier to notice and pick up, as nature doesnt repeat regularly like that, every bit of it is similar but unique. Is that crude repetition down to poor design or limited availability of technology (or small budget?)

I think if you were a tall square person like Mr Strong then this might be noticed, the average person with the addition of webbing, foliage stuffed into crevices, breakup of shape, location ( behind tree, by a log, in a ditch ) , position, ( crouch , prone, etc ) then i don't think it will matter.

I image the repetition is due to a pattern on the printing equipment that make the material.

 

[Tourist]

On some camo pattern's I noticed they look more like wall paper where it repeats every 12 or 18 inche's or so and would appear to be easier to notice and pick up, as nature doesnt repeat regularly like that, every bit of it is similar but unique. Is that crude repetition down to poor design or limited availability of technology (or small budget?)

They may repeat, but take into consideration the cutting of panels when you make clothing as very few panels will be much bigger than 12" - 18". Added to which you are normally wearing webbing, you're dirty and may possibly have some hessian attached.

However, when you look at DPM or Flecktarn bashas that looks like someone has wallpapered a section of forest.

The good book says take care of the five S's and M:

Shape
Shadow
Shine
Silhouette
Sound
&
Movement

Everything else come's under on of those headings.........it then depends on how advanced you need to be and in what envoronment you are working. I remember reading about one of Carlos Hathcocks stalks in Vietnam where it took him nearly two days to move a few hundred metres to his fire position.

 

[Tourist]

An amusing one for you:

 

[mr dazzler]

They may repeat, but take into consideration the cutting of panels when you make clothing as very few panels will be much bigger than 12" - 18".

Interesting point. At the moment I am wearing a pair of american woodland trouser's and am looking at them again. The reinforced knee area "clashes" with the upper and lower leg section's and creates a unique variation on the original pattern where the section's meet. Same with the pockets, pocket flap's, backside reinforcement etc. So a random element is happening. My ignorance of military methods shows up

 

[Tourist]

Thats why we used to have SCReDE - Stores & Clothing Research & Development Establishment. I think it still exists in a smaller form as part of a larger group and under a different name.

They were the people that used to make and try everything before it was sent out to manufacturers tender. They had the arctic and desert test rooms for tents, equipment and clothing. And, they employed the people that came up with cammo.

 

[gorilla]

An amusing one for you:

i can't see anything in that photo.......what is it?........

 

[sharp88]

The israelis came up with an interesting idea with the floppy cammo healmet cover. Its basically mesh formed into an irregular shape that you put on your helmet, to disguise the familiar figure of a helmet.

 

[sharp88]

In other words baggy would be better and roll down your trouser legs!

 

[Tourist]

The israelis came up with an interesting idea with the floppy cammo healmet cover. Its basically mesh formed into an irregular shape that you put on your helmet, to disguise the familiar figure of a helmet.

Its called the MITZNEFET, google and ye shall find. It was originally only worn by the paratroop units but like everything it filters down.

Here's one for you. The Guards wear bearskins for a similar reason to the existence of the Mitznefet. The extra height of the bearskin was to fool enemy snipers into placing their head shots higher and thus miss the thought generator. And, Guards tunics are red for a cammo reason too. Remember that troops all used to line up abreast for battle, well red is a colour that sort of runs into itself when you line people up and try to count them from a distance. The use of red was to foil the enemies capability of counting troops when they were forming up.

Oh whoa is me, sad, I've read too many books, visited too many museums and attended too many lectures.

 

[commandocal]

I personally think that DPM is the best camo around still, not like these digital camoflauges they try too much to break up the wearer and just makes if anything look blurry,but creates a non flat area area making it 3D like, Dpm is big blocks that break up the outline and but is just a 2D area so maybe more noticable when looking for it,But i guess its all down to how good the wearer is

 

[Jedadiah]

I personally think that DPM is the best camo around still, not like these digital camoflauges they try too much to break up the wearer and just makes if anything look blurry,but creates a non flat area area making it 3D like, Dpm is big blocks that break up the outline and but is just a 2D area so maybe more noticable when looking for it,But i guess its all down to how good the wearer is

Seeing as camoflage is really 'Theatre Specific', and DPM (Disruptive Pattern material) was originally designed for Central European Operations, then, in theory, it should work in such locations and similar. However, Digi cam, MARPAT, ACU and variants there of work probably work better than DPM in the area's they were designed for. But, seeing as most things (!) in the real world are 3D and the Digi cam tend's to blur, then it is succeeding in the fact that it is not drawing the eye, thus blending in. Gentlemen, i give you camoflage!

Here's one for you. The Guards wear bearskins for a similar reason to the existence of the Mitznefet. The extra height of the bearskin was to fool enemy snipers into placing their head shots higher and thus miss the thought generator. And, Guards tunics are red for a cammo reason too. Remember that troops all used to line up abreast for battle, well red is a colour that sort of runs into itself when you line people up and try to count them from a distance. The use of red was to foil the enemies capability of counting troops when they were forming up.

Oh whoa is me, sad, I've read too many books, visited too many museums and attended too many lectures.

Hey Alex, is this where the phrase 'Don't shoot until you see the white's of their eye's!' comes from?

 

[commandocal]

lol Intresting i thought they where red because the enemy would not see them bleed haha if you look at a few pictures of the joint TA and Yank nation guard exercise you will see that the yanks stood out a right treat in the woodland and the Brits in the DPM basically just looked like a small tree, bit too dark, but the ACU is definetly not good camoflauge

 

[mr dazzler]

An amusing one for you:

Sort of like vontrapptarn? (sound of music alternative clothing styles ) Interesting how the eye is drawn initially to the dark floor and symmetrical doors, then the raggedy broken edge where it contarsts with the sofa, then the repeating large "rose" motif on the sofa, then the face/boots etc (although even they sort of relate to the wood trim and the floor board's). It might take a second or more to notice that body though.

 

[sharp88]

I can see a bit of foot. But it would be hard to distinguish if you werent looking directly at it. pretty kool though

 

[Jedadiah]

lol Intresting i thought they where red because the enemy would not see them bleed haha if you look at a few pictures of the joint TA and Yank nation guard exercise you will see that the yanks stood out a right treat in the woodland and the Brits in the DPM basically just looked like a small tree, bit too dark, but the ACU is definetly not good camoflauge

Thats my point Bud, Digicam was not meant for woodland. If you ever see Yanks and Canucks in Afghanistan you will see that it suits that environment. They also do a darker version for more temperate climates, but in a dusty, semi urban area, the Digicam works. It is loosly based on the german Flecktarn and the Germans have now based their new camoflage for this environment on the Digicam (though very carefully so as not to be mistaken for Americans!) If it did'nt work, they would not use it. Some of our SF guy's use a mixture of ACU and coyote tan when working in the Middle East because it works better than our Desert version of DPM. If you get to go to that area you may very well agree with me.

 

[leon-1]

Why does DPM work?

It doesn't.

DPM as we know it was never designed to be used solely on it's own, camouflage is theater specific, yes, but it was designed to be used in conjunction with natural foliage or parts from the local environment.

The major problem with most DPM patterns are that they are dark, in fact too dark, at a distance people wearing DPM tend to look black.

Ghillie suites have elastic stitched into them for attaching natural cam to, normally soldiers (infantry) attach natural cam to their webbing and their helmets.

The use of shadow and natural foliage as screens for movement is generally accepted within the military. Snipers "shoot from cover" people must of heard that phrase before, well it's true. Snipers are trained to use all available cover to their advantage which includes things like folds in the ground.

Why are things seen?

Things are seen because they are unnatural, if things appear out of place, quite often they are.

It matters little what DPM pattern you use, if it is wrong for the environment that you are in you have a good chance that you will be seen, if you use it without natural materials from the area you are in you will most definitely be seen.

Oldsoldier mentioned earlier a trial where good old fashioned olive green came out better than all the patterns, there are a couple of reasons for this.

Firstly green is a midtone, at night it is a mid grey colour to the human eye, infact at night you can use oranges, reds and blue's and it'll make not a difference to an observer as they can all be found as being midtoned.

Secondly, green gets little creases in it and folds produce shadows which produce a DPM in it's own right, but it is far more subtle than that which we paint on fabrics. In turn the pattern changes constantly when you move which means there is no regularity to it whereas DPM becomes familiar and we recognise the patterns.

In the end we see things because we recognise them or they are unnatural in a specific environment.

There have been loads of studies about DPM, the SS snipers in World War II used a very effective pattern that nowadays is comparable to Flektarn, Auscam is very good as is the new Dancam.

 

[SCOMAN]

Just to be a real spotter and beat the Red Tunic dit, why not walk about with lights strung about us. On a bright day with the light behind you if you have lights at the same or similar frequency on you it's really hard to be spotted. I think the tankies did some work or at least I seen it on TV camoflaging a tank on a ridge line. To reinforce the theatre specific DPM I always remember meeting a UDR lad on board Prince Andrew's 'sweeper' he was there as his bugler(don't ask). Anyway despite the fact that it was Oct/Nov in Gibraltar this prat was wearing desert Cams. As he crossed the gangway wearing his Tam O Shanter with a fir treee on it I asked if he was from an Irish Regiment. 'Oh yes how'd you know this' he said pointing to his beret, 'No I replied your the only EDIT wearing Deserts in Europe'.

 

[Tourist]

Why does DPM work?

It doesn't.

He's right, your basic camo provides a base layer to build upon, basic [training] fieldcraft teaches you to adapt and change your camo in accordance with your surroundings.

Firstly green is a midtone, at night it is a mid grey colour to the human eye, infact at night you can use oranges, reds and blue's and it'll make not a difference to an observer as they can all be found as being midtoned.

Yup, comparative optical values, red is the same as black as far as a simple black and white camera is concerned. This means that at night under a silvery moon black and red will look EXACTLY same. And, light blue is the same as white. Its amazing what you learn in the army - On a course I was given something light blue on a white background to photograph - set up to fail - and I wondered why I could not get it on film, till the instructors showed us.

In the end we see things because we recognise them or they are unnatural in a specific environment.

That is why a good observer learns to look through things and past things and not directly at them, then your eye is naturally drawn to distraction, irregularity and the out of place. The 1000 yard stare.

There have been loads of studies about DPM, the SS snipers in World War II used a very effective pattern that nowadays is comparable to Flektarn, Auscam is very good as is the new Dancam.

Interestingly, I mentioned above that Fleck has been used by many nations as a pattern for its camo, Dancam is actually Flecktarn in a different colour scheme.

Now that I have seen it I still like multicam, I feel a tarp coming on.

Jed, I don't know who said wait till you see the white's of their eye's - it seems like a fair guess though........I may have a dig around.

Scoman, your Irish boy ain't half as bad as some of the American soldiers I see wandering around in the US when I go over, desert cam in New York. I saw a guy in Florida, with his family, in full contractor 5.11 kit including the Blackwater polo shirt, dessie boots and rigger belt.........