Bushcraft/survival fitness and conditioning

[1234]

Sorry to go on but I just want to clear up yesterdays debate with pango after reading it back
In my original post I said about going jogging, which means im returning to somewhere (indoors and warm whether it be a house, cabin, walled tent with a wood burning stove etc), im not on an extended trip like your mountaineering reference, I could of worded it a little better I guess
But the only reason I continued with the discussion was the “your talking out your shorts” and then the “try that in your underpants” comments, which is just a nicer way of calling someone a liar
instead of moaning I tried to back up what I said up (which I think I did to a certain extent)
the comment someone else said about not feeling the cold but you body temp is still dropping is probably right, (although not in hof’s case where in the video in the water bath he raised his core temp, (which doesn’t involve loosing digits, toes and limbs) which requires energy (where the fat you mentioned comes in)
And the last thing I would like to say is, just because someone cannot understand or prove something doesn’t means its fake/lies
ill get my coat (wind jacket )

 

[Bush Matt]

I think our genetic make up plays a big factor in our suitability for different exercises and therefore environment. I recently ran the London marathon at 30, 6ft and 15st - I would say I’m a hefty guy and the BMI reading shows me around obese. But am I unfit? Well the marathon took just over 5 hours; I got 10 hours of squash and tennis in this weekend and have cycled 5 miles to work through London this morning so I don’t think so! The reality is I sit at a desk for 12 hour days and enjoy a beer so yes I could take a stone or two off. But then my lightest weight since I was 18 and very fit is 14 stone. For me the marathon was really tough, building the stamina a big challenge. I cut out all muscle building training for 6 months (weights, even swimming as I find that builds my shoulders up rapidly) and even then I would say a month of going back to my normal training has reversed most of the 6 months of marathon training. The point being that fighting against your natural shape is a long and arduous process.

Our natural inclination is of course to take part in the exercise that we find easiest – so the big guys will be in the gym pressing weights when they would be best off running. This is where racket sports are brilliant if you enjoy them and are competitive – an hour of badminton or squash will leave you feeling like you’ve done a big CV workout and a yoga session all in one!

In a bushcraft/survival situation I believe my fitness and a few extra pounds would be advantageous. If you are in a jungle climate you are going to lose those pounds rapidly and if it’s cold you’ve got extra insulation. If I was training for bushcraft fitness I don’t think I would stray too far from standard army or triathlon training - running/swimming outdoors.

Despite witch hazel, vaseline or any other ‘rub’ relief friction injuries can still be painful!

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Big Swede

Speaking of fitness and stamina. A sprinter will be better at a marathon than a marathon runner at a sprint. .

I've got to disagree here.

Sprinters have a higher percentage of fast twitch mucles fibres whereas maraton runners have a higher percentage of slow twitch mucles fibres. Sprinters can complete a 100 metre sprint without breathing, whereas matahon runners have a huge aerobic load placed on them in the course of their events. I have no doubt that a maraton runner could complete a 100 metre sprint, but could a sprinter complete a marathon?

I guess that's why sprinters don't compete in marathons & maraton competitors don't compete in sprint events

I really don't understand the often heard talk of "I can walk forever but not run" as if anybody who could run couldn't walk forever too, only probably faster and with less strain.

To be honest it's quite a leap to suggest that the "I can walk forever but not run" is excluding runners from being able to walk over long distances

Since we are talking about bushcraft that should be occuring in nature (i.e. off the concrete), I've got to ask... how many runners actually run with walking boots (rather than light weight jogging shoes) and are carrying the additional weight of a backpack?

IMO, it all gets down to the best form of training for any event, is to perform the event.

In the specific instance of bushcraft, not only will it develop the aerobic fitness required to cover distance, but it will also get the muscles acustomed to carrying a back pack and using hand tools (eg knife, hatchet/axe for extended periods of time). It will also develop the thickened skin on the heels & hands as required.



Kind regards
Mick

 

[xylaria]

BUSHMATT Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

plaster tape covering the whole aerola before hand

 

[leon-1]

This has been quite an interesting thread. I used to do a lot of walking, climbing as well as being in the forces. I was fit, I ran half marathons on a regular basis, I pushed weights and generally you would say that I was of an athletic build, but I have always carried a little "tab flab".

Nowadays, my knees are knackered and I have damaged my back, but I still walk with a bergan on a regular basis. I carry a bit more weight around the midriff than I would like, but heyho. I can however walk for a day, setup a camp of a night and clean up after myself before I leave the next day if I am doing nomadic bushcraft. If I am working from a fixed base once I am there I can fell a tree with an axe (with permission of the owner), limb it section it and split it on my own. I can run the camp, forage for food and still find time to relax by the fire of a night. After a week I will have lost weight because not having central heating my body will have been using the shiver reflex to warm my body, I will have been active for longer periods in the long run than when you do weights and run as I am up early and normally do things of a night (night navigation and the like).

You see humans are just like any other animal, in a time of plenty we gorge ourselves so that in times of low yield / poor harvest / famine our bodies have supplies to feed upon. It's the same cycle that all animals go through each year, they get through winter and early spring where they have burnt off the fat reserve and then do their damnedest to place those reserves back for the coming winter.

The problems with our society is that people don't have to do a lot for their food. However the human body is a miraculous thing and it's surprising what people are capable of putting themselves through and how their own bodies will adapt over time to allow them to survive.

If you want bergan fitness, then every now and again instead of taking the car to the supermarket, walk and take a bergan (definitely a bag for life). It'll make you think about what you eat (do I really need this) and it'll improve your bergan fitness.
Get yourself a wood burner, it gives you an excuse to use an axe on a regular basis. On weekends go walking and practice your foraging and wild food skills, take the kids to the woods and do a bit of tracking or camp building.

Some of these things improve your skills, some of them improve your muscle memory so that if you were to try surviving for a number of months it's gonna be a lot less painful than it would if you did these things once upon a time. Your body becomes a bit more efficient at using its resources when the muscles know what they're doing.

 

[Laurentius]

This has been quite an interesting thread. I used to do a lot of walking, climbing as well as being in the forces. I was fit, I ran half marathons on a regular basis, I pushed weights and generally you would say that I was of an athletic build, but I have always carried a little "tab flab".

Nowadays, my knees are knackered and I have damaged my back, but I still walk with a bergan on a regular basis. I carry a bit more weight around the midriff than I would like, but heyho. I can however walk for a day, setup a camp of a night and clean up after myself before I leave the next day if I am doing nomadic bushcraft. If I am working from a fixed base once I am there I can fell a tree with an axe (with permission of the owner), limb it section it and split it on my own. I can run the camp, forage for food and still find time to relax by the fire of a night. After a week I will have lost weight because not having central heating my body will have been using the shiver reflex to warm my body, I will have been active for longer periods in the long run than when you do weights and run as I am up early and normally do things of a night (night navigation and the like).

You see humans are just like any other animal, in a time of plenty we gorge ourselves so that in times of low yield / poor harvest / famine our bodies have supplies to feed upon. It's the same cycle that all animals go through each year, they get through winter and early spring where they have burnt off the fat reserve and then do their damnedest to place those reserves back for the coming winter.

The problems with our society is that people don't have to do a lot for their food. However the human body is a miraculous thing and it's surprising what people are capable of putting themselves through and how their own bodies will adapt over time to allow them to survive.

If you want bergan fitness, then every now and again instead of taking the car to the supermarket, walk and take a bergan (definitely a bag for life). It'll make you think about what you eat (do I really need this) and it'll improve your bergan fitness.
Get yourself a wood burner, it gives you an excuse to use an axe on a regular basis. On weekends go walking and practice your foraging and wild food skills, take the kids to the woods and do a bit of tracking or camp building.

Some of these things improve your skills, some of them improve your muscle memory so that if you were to try surviving for a number of months it's gonna be a lot less painful than it would if you did these things once upon a time. Your body becomes a bit more efficient at using its resources when the muscles know what they're doing.

I suppose there is one thing to be said for living on a fourth floor with no lift, and that is no matter whether I have gone to the supermarket in a car, or walked there and back I still have to lug whatever I have brought home up 3 flights of stairs, and that is hard on my poor knees, but I have to do it all the same.


The fact I cannot get around is that several of my joints are knackered too and that's painful. You can build up muscle to help support that, you can keep using them for as long as you can but in the end you can't beat nature and bodies do wear out, especially athletic ones.

In my youth I did not carry an ounce of spare flesh and I could eat anything (and did) nowadays I do have to be a bit careful with the carbohydrates as I notice the extra pounds round my belly more than any extra pounds on my back.

Running! well lets see about that I am waiting for a cardiologist appointment for a stress test. I can't run for more than about 3 minutes without experiencing difficulty. There has to be a difference somewhere between running and carrying a rucksack full of shopping upstairs else why can I do the one and not the other?

 

[leon-1]

There has to be a difference somewhere between running and carrying a rucksack full of shopping upstairs else why can I do the one and not the other?

There is, one is a form of aerobic exercise, the other is more strength and endurance. The muscles still work hard, but in different ways and they don't require the same amount of oxygen as when you run.

In the forces you had people that could run with weight and people that couldn't, some of the time you found the guys that could run with weight couldn't go overly fast when running without weight as they are not as aerobically fit as the racing budgies.

 

[jungle_re]

There is, one is a form of aerobic exercise, the other is more strength and endurance. The muscles still work hard, but in different ways and they don't require the same amount of oxygen as when you run.

In the forces you had people that could run with weight and people that couldn't, some of the time you found the guys that could run with weight couldn't go overly fast when running without weight as they are not as aerobically fit as the racing budgies.

Yep i was one of them men - My ACFT time (the normal 1.5 mile run but in boot with rifle and bergan/webbing(i think 35lbs but i can remember) was only 11 seconds slow than a normal BFT

PS

thanks everyone for all the input it been the most intresting thread ive been involved in for a long time - great responses

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

It's simple really different sets of muscles and different strains on the body. Running will exhaust you before walking especially if you are carrying a load.

But that's due to running out of carbs and then fading whereas walking with less than 50% heart rate would 'normally' burn fat. The examples of Ran Fiennes and Stroud is interesting, they were fighting cold and hauling lots of kit. They had a strict diet, sad photos of them emaciated and malnourished after the trek in their books.

Nick

 

[bushwacker bob]

I know that Stuart from experiences tries to practice hand drill once a day to maintain the hard skin to prevent blisters forming when the technique is needed.

Thats the funniest thing I've read for a while.

 

[BOD]

...
In a bushcraft/survival situation I believe my fitness and a few extra pounds would be advantageous. If you are in a jungle climate you are going to lose those pounds rapidly ...

Why should you unless you are pushing it? Walk really slowly and you may well see your next meal.

In an environment that provides a fair amount of carbohydrates and water, one should travel slowly and easily conserving sweat (hence water and calories).

Taking the easy and longer routes, getting lots of sleep and spending an extra day in camp when you feel tired is the way to survive not charging around burning calories, risking injury and dehydration.

While conditioning is good, being calm, sensible and having knowledge of your environment is far more important.

 

[pango]

Mike Stroud and Ran Fiennes have been recent advocates of pushing your body, to see what's possible.
The Antartic in the 90s, 7 Marathons in 7 Days on 7 Continents, etc etc. Mike Stroud believes we are genetically designed to push ourselves to extremes but we don't in our sedentery lifestyle.

Scot_C R, please bear with me while I form my convoluted argument.

There are others who have gone before, Scot_C R, many of whom didn't have the luxury of knowing there was at least a minimal possibility of rescue from desperate situations... Nansen, Amundsen, Shackleton, Scott, and in more recent times, Reinhold Messner, all of whom are extraordinary characters, all of whom have displayed obsessive behaviour.

When reading of the exploits of Shackleton and Scott, fundamental differences emerge. Firstly, being not of the preferred attributes, ie; English, military, upper-middle class: Shackleton did not have the backing of the British establishment of the day, so did not have the resources of Scott. It's also interesting to note their wholly different mind-sets, probably as a result of these circumstances. But whereas Scott's expeditions were planned as a military exercise, Shackleton, although most certainly in possession of "The Plan", also had Flexibility written in stone. This, I believe to be why Scott's attempt on the South Pole resulted in the loss of the expedition to a man, while Shackleton only ever lost one man, and that due to his ignoring of a direct order not to short-cut across an area of decaying ice. Scott worked to a regime which stated they had to cover a certain distance in a given period of time, while Shackleton was more prepared for the unexpected, and to a certain degree allow the terrain more influence on the strategy and pace. Would Scott ever have taken the risk of a Bum-slide into the unknown? Of course not, it wouldn't have been dignified!

Is there any evidence to suggest that traditional societies throughout Human history have lived on an all or bust, daily basis strategy in which life and limb are risked, or such routine expenditure of effort to outweigh the benefit of a single meal?

If we contrast what little we know of the day to day lives of traditional African societies against the Zulu Impis, we are immediately aware of the difference between an apparently habitual conservation of energy during everyday tasks, and the Zulu's ability to cover huge distances in a day, reported as exceeding that which a man on horseback could achieve, somewhere between 30 and 50 miles under an African sun. But when we look closer, we get an inkling that similar strategies may have been employed, as we now understand that the Impi ran in an overlapping relay formation. It was never a full fighting force which first arrived at the objective but spearheads of relatively fresh units which were massively reinforced during the course of the day. The logistics must have been tremendous.

The real trick was that neither the Boers nor the British ever realised how they were doing it. It was beyond the understanding of Northern Europeans!

What I'm driving at here, is that it seems to me our "programming" is somewhat different to what you are arguing, Scot_ C R, and although we are genetically equipped with a "Flight or Fight" mechanism and a sometimes unexpected potential for endurance, our make-up is designed not to use it until we find ourselves in extremis, which is to be avoided at all costs!

ps; I know that took a while to get round to, but please don't pick on me (Flight or Fight as opposed to Fight or Flight is a Freudian thing) lol!

 

[FerlasDave]

I think some of us are missing the pint first drawn up here, I think we should be looking at this at more of a 'fitness for survival purposes' rather than a 'fitness for bushcraft purposes' I mean we can all learn about the natural world and what plants you can eat what plants you cant. But whilst most of us are happy doing this in a fixed camp, with thick sleeping bags, dry clothes and a sure means of getting fire. What happens when we survive a plane crash or get drifted out to sea from a ship? The kit wont be there then which is why in my previous post I favoured BG. minimal/no kit, natural shelter, natural fire IMO bushcraft is thrown out of the window for a few weeks when you can get yourself stabilised, AND it is within those few weeks when you need physical and mental fitness to keep yourself going through the rough.

 

[pango]

All fair points, Dave569, but we have to ask ourselves who we'd put our money on, the Slob who likes his beer beside a fire, camping, a bit of fishing, can put together a fair pot of soup, has done a bit of whittling, leather-work, the odd DIY job and knows a few knots, or the athlete without such interests... or the guy who lives in the gym and works as a doorman at a nightclub?

My money's on the Slob!

 

[DaveBromley]

All fair points, Dave569, but we have to ask ourselves who we'd put our money on, the Slob who likes his beer beside a fire, camping, a bit of fishing, can put together a fair pot of soup, has done a bit of whittling, leather-work, the odd DIY job and knows a few knots, or the athlete without such interests... or the guy who lives in the gym and works as a doorman at a nightclub?

My money's on the Slob!

I have to say that I completely agree with that! In any situation knowledge and experience are usually better than any physical fitness, as there is usually an easy less labour intensive way to do everything annd rather than just doing things with raw energy and brute force the more concentrated knowledgable solution is usually better

Take for example felling a tree, any idiot with an axe can go and turn a tree into a million splinters with enough time (and Red Bull ) but the experienced woodsman how ever fit he is would spend a fraction of the energy to achieve the same result!

My 2 pence worth and only my opinion

Thanks Dave

 

[lisa]

Or maybe put another way...; a 70 year old that, whilst does not have the raw strength of youth, has been used to living in the bush and all the associated knowledge/skill VS a 20 year old that is exceptionally fit, but lacks the experience of the former?

personally, i don't see why it must one or the other. Why not aim for both fitness and skill? And any type of physical conditioning will surely enhance your outdoor experience, especially if that conditioning is gained by doing what it is you enjoy doing outdoors?

 

[FerlasDave]

?

personally, i don't see why it must one or the other. Why not aim for both fitness and skill? And any type of physical conditioning will surely enhance your outdoor experience, especially if that conditioning is gained by doing what it is you enjoy doing outdoors?

I agree with you there. Im just trying to look at it from more of a survival perspective. You might not have a nice sharp axe to fell a tree in a plane crash, but you might have an old peice of fusilage which will require more chopping and harder work, which is where the fitter person would do better.

 

[Minotaur]

Think there is a big difference between Survival fit, and Bushcraft fit.

I actual think there is a big difference full stop. Bushcraft is about being a professional, it is the day job, so you need to be fit, and able to stay fit. A body weight program of some kind is the way to go. I am about to start Convict Conditioning, which has six exercises and ten levels for each. It should mean I can exercise anywhere.

Survival is about just that. Anyone who has the time or energy to exercise in a survival situation is not in a survival situation. In a survival situation not doing something that needs to be done can kill you, so you need the mental strength to force yourself to go on.

As someone who has been fit (long time ago...) and now struggles with joint and tendon troubles (age BITES!) I would like to add the observation that super fit, well conditioned folk will still fail if their mental attitude or technique is poor, while the unfit softies have been known to come through hell if their heads were in the right place....
I am pinning my hopes on keeping a PMA when the smelly stuff hits the air conditioning......

People can sit down and die, so this is the big thing, and most important.

This brought a smile to my dial

Has ayone heard of a Martial artist called Bruce Lee?

He was once asked his opinion on the benefits of cross training for martial arts.

The essence of his response was that all training is good, but the best training for any event is to perform the event.

I have to agree. The best training for bushcraft is to get out and do it regularily.

IMO, everything else is really just a substitute.

While I do agree with the thought behind it. The only way to learn and get better at a skill is to do it. With your weak hand/side if possible.

That said, Bruce Lee did cross train. The workout he did took 4 hours a day. His most interesting thought about training was to train all the time, so he would clench muscles in the car and so.

I guess that's why sprinters don't compete in marathons & maraton competitors don't compete in sprint events

Actually, a lot of Marathon runners were sprinters. Your 100 meter time, and mile time give a good indictior of what your marathon time would be.

Bolt is going to have a very interesting career because he is actual a middle distance runner.

To be honest it's quite a leap to suggest that the "I can walk forever but not run" is excluding runners from being able to walk over long distances

Different muscles are used, so a lot of people can walk distances they could not run.

IMO, it all gets down to the best form of training for any event, is to perform the event.

True, but one of the worse ways to prepare for a marathon is to run one. You could not prepare to walk one of the massive trails by walking the same distance. You could however time walk carrying more weight everyday, so you could walk faster, and increase the weight building the muscles for the event. There is the tale of the shot putter who trained with the wrong weight shot put, so won Gold.

In the specific instance of bushcraft, not only will it develop the aerobic fitness required to cover distance, but it will also get the muscles acustomed to carrying a back pack and using hand tools (eg knife, hatchet/axe for extended periods of time). It will also develop the thickened skin on the heels & hands as required.

There are three areas being talked about here conditioning, strength, and aerobic. All of these can be worked on, in one way or another.

The reason we keep saying you need to do the event, is because you do not use the muscles normally. Kettlebells made russian judo people scary strong, because they train the small muscles as well as the big ones. It is like the health and safety arguement about lifting to different heights. Then you have muscle memory, and technique to take into account. Which is why you need to do a little of it a day.

 

[Laurentius]

Bushcraft and survival are not the same thing. Indeed survival in one situation is not the same as survival in another, and I do think that luck has a lot to do with it, whether you are dumped in a survival situation where you have both the right attitude and the right physical attributes to get out of it.

Frankly I would rather not be in a situation that demanded pure survival skills, I would rather avoid it, but I would like to think I have something in reserve in case I did find myself in such a situation. It says in the Bible Luke 12:25 "And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? "

Which is very true as I keep saying, we basically have what we are dealt with, we can improve it some, or we can squander or waste it, we can't all be Usain Bolt or Reinhold Messner.

The only guy whose bottom I could kick these days is Arnie Schwarzenegger, he looks in worse shape than me even http://www.arnoldspeaks.com/uploaded_images/Arnold-709131.jpg

When I was only seven months old there were two babies in the hospital with bronchial pneumonia, one of them made it, the other didn't, I think it should be obvious which one I was. How much choice in the matter of survival did I have then? I wonder.

 

[wentworth]

Think there is a big difference between Survival fit, and Bushcraft fit.

I actual think there is a big difference full stop. Bushcraft is about being a professional, it is the day job, so you need to be fit, and able to stay fit. A body weight program of some kind is the way to go. I am about to start Convict Conditioning, which has six exercises and ten levels for each. It should mean I can exercise anywhere...

...Different muscles are used, so a lot of people can walk distances they could not run.

.

Hi Minotaur,
Are you prescribing bodyweight exercise because it can be performed while out in the bush, or in general.

And they are the same muscles being used, in regards to walking and running, as previously stated.