Bushcraft accidents research

[Miniwhisk]

Done. Could have written more.

 

[rickyamos]

Done...........

 

[Quixoticgeek]

The survey system I am using is limited to 100 replies, of which so far I've had 85. I'll leave the survey open until Friday, or 100 replies, which ever happens sooner. Lots of really interesting results, but I don't mention too much until after the survey closes.

Thank you to everyone for your responses so far. It's really interesting, I do hope that all of the injuries listed, and some do make you wince to read, have healed up ok.

Done! I funnily haven't been injured at all really from harvesting berries to knife and axe work- it's football I can't seen to play! Anyway, I think only a small first aid kit is needed, a small one with mainly plasters, wipes and a few bandages, a life systems one, works well for me!

Lucky. I just returned from a weekend in the woods with a 3" x ½" bruise on my leg, a cut on my hand and at least 20 insect bites...

Done,,,

I can't remember ever injuring myself in the slightest in the bush; I'm always extra cautious when "out there".

See my previous comment

My point is that more or less any problem which can be alleviated by a layperson using the contents of a standard first aid kit isn't all that serious. The priorities are different when you are in the mouintains - days or even weeks from help. The standard first aid kit contains no products which will have any conclusive effect on injuries which at all are survivable under the actual conditions.

Now this is an interesting one, and I think it's more to do with what is considered a "standard first aid kit". If you slip with your knife and puncture something relatively major, then getting a field dressing onto that wound ASAP can be the difference between SAR getting there to recover a casualty vs to recover a body.

At the same time, this weekend I cut my hand on my saw while cutting firewood. Being able to put a plaster on it, and maybe some anti septic cream, could be the difference between it healing with a scar, and it getting infected and things getting worse.

I don't want to effect the outcome of the survey so I will stop this here, but will go into it more after the survey is closed.

The blanket will do you no good in a howling snowstom in the mountains. The space blankets included in First Aid kits are torn to shreds in seconds in these conditions. The proper equipment is called a "Vindsäck" in swedish - it will withstand the wind. Combined with one or two tealights it is a good solution.

Vindsæk / Vindsäck from Hilleberg: http://hilleberg.se/sv/product/vindsäck

Photo from Hillebergs website.

//Kim Horsevad

This is a bit like Susanne Williams "Staying Alive Cold Kit". Lots of interesting products on the market for this sort of purpose. I have a foil blanket in my backpack at the moment, but that is because my pack is currently rigged for hiking in Kent. Up a mountain, that may change.

Really depends on what you call a standard 1st aid kit I suppose. I think most here on the forum pack their own.

The data will reveal the answer to this.

I was shocked by the number of things that had changed from what was considered good practice when I first did a first aid course back in the early 80's. Also some equipment and medications have changed. I'm as bad as everyone else wanting to play at the nice things in our hobby like chopping wood, lighting fires and cooking nice things to eat. But especially for those of us who like to go off on our own then being able to look after oneself should it all go wrong is easily overlooked. Like when I was a tree feller, we had to carry a large wound dressing on our belts in case of an accident. There was a very real school of thought that it was window dressing as most of the squad either wouldn't know what to do or be in such shock that if you were in need of a dressing that size you were toast.

It changes a lot. Even since I did my full "Standard First Aid" course last April, things have changed, updates come out, etc...

The only dangerous bit for most people is the vehicle journey to/from the site, but there was no option for 'Multiple trauma resulting from road traffic collision'

Number 75 from my checklist of 120.

I would be really interested in the other 118 items on this checklist.

As for no option for the RTC. I wasn't considering the journey too and from your Bushcrafting in my research, primarily because I would hope everybody's car has a First aid kit in it. At least everybody who takes that vehicle abroad will do.

Thank you everyone for your responses so far, just 15 more until I close the survey.

Thank you

Julia

 

[Nice65]

Done. I just carry an a Adventure Medical Kit .5 that I've added a few bits like burn dressings, Betadyne, extra steri-strips and better tape. I'm aware of how easy it is to sustain injury while out, and take extra care with axes, Silky saws and moving round in poor terrain. My job involves complex risk assessment, so though I don't take the forms out with me, I seem to have taken the idea on board.

Worst thing for me is usually a burn or minor cut whilst inebriated

 

[santaman2000]

The only dangerous bit for most people is the vehicle journey to/from the site, but there was no option for 'Multiple trauma resulting from road traffic collision'

Number 75 from my checklist of 120.

Have you never had sprains? Blisters? Sunburn? What do you do; sit in the shade?

 

[CallsignSam]

Done......

 

[Ruud]

Done! that was easy

 

[horsevad]

Now this is an interesting one, and I think it's more to do with what is considered a "standard first aid kit". If you slip with your knife and puncture something relatively major, then getting a field dressing onto that wound ASAP can be the difference between SAR getting there to recover a casualty vs to recover a body.
(...)

How would SAR even know something has gone wrong in that situation? What in your first aid kit can make you survive a major wound which you could not expect to survive without that first aid kit? What if you are solo - in a terrain where civilization is days away?

Stopping blood loss from a puncture wound doesn't rely on a First Aid Kit. It relies on quick action with whatever suitable item you got handy at the relevant time. In Denmark first-aiders are trained to avoid using valuable time fetching a field dressing from a first aid kit - and just stop the bleeding by pressing ones thumb into the wound (if the wound is serious enough to be lifethreatening).

A human with a puncture wound to the femoral artery will be dead from blood loss before most people even have realised where they have packed their first aid kit.

The viewpoint I an trying to convey is that for some terrain and some environments the real safety lies in planning ones action to that extent that one can be quite sure to avoid injuries. Even with a SPOT, satellite phone (or similar) there are lots of places in the nordic contries where the response time for SAR will be several hours - if not days (in really bad winter conditions).

Under these circumstances a first aid kit - packed with the items with can be administered by a normal layperson - is actually rather insignificant in regards to injuries which at all are surviable under such conditions.

Minor accidents can be alleviated by first aid kits. No one doubts that. A few adhesive bandages, a tick remover, some petroleum jelly, tweezers or similar items will be considered prudent carry by most outdoor-people. But unless the person using that kit have some kind of higher medical expertise the kits are not going to save lives in terrains where professional help is hours or days away.

(...)
This is a bit like Susanne Williams "Staying Alive Cold Kit". Lots of interesting products on the market for this sort of purpose. I have a foil blanket in my backpack at the moment, but that is because my pack is currently rigged for hiking in Kent. Up a mountain, that may change.
Julia

I carry a space blanket myself. It is rainproof and windproof - if one can keep it out of strong winds. For use in a forrested terrain it is very usefull in combination with improvised shelters. It is useless above the tree line - as mentioned above.

I don't know Susanne Williams "Staying Alive Cold Kit", but the idea of the vindsäck is centuries old in scandinavia, The Jerven Bag is a more modern - and more versatile - rendering of the same general idea.

When teaching courses in the colder months I insist that every one of the students - in addition to their other equipment - carry a large polyethylene bag (200L) and a tealight:

( The student in above photo should - of course - have kept her gloves inside the bag! Such a simple mistake could easily have been life-threatening in a real scenario. That is one of the reasons that gloves often are tied to the coat in the nordic contries.)

Even under horrendous weather conditions this combination has the potential to actually keep a person alive. I have been using this setup when teaching for the last 20 years, but the idea isn't mine. I first saw the idea mentioned in one of Harry Macfies books about his travels among the Chippewa indians. He mentions an indian using a blanket made from rabbit-skins (which of course would be effective to even lower temperatures) combined with a very small fire, but the idea is generally the same. Is the "Staying Alive Cold Kit" similar?

By comparison, most first aid kits for laypersons does not, by their very definition, contain items actually designed to keep a person alive over a prolonged period of time. First aid is just that - first aid. It is a stop-gap measure until the professionals can take over. The game changes drastically when in an environment where professional help is either days away or simply just not available.

//Kim Horsevad

 

[Quixoticgeek]

How would SAR even know something has gone wrong in that situation? What in your first aid kit can make you survive a major wound which you could not expect to survive without that first aid kit? What if you are solo - in a terrain where civilization is days away?

Me? I have my buddy beacon firing off every 5-10 minutes when I am alone. That solves the how to find me, how do they know to find me? I tell my buddy "going for a walk, back at 5" If I'm not back and reported in by 6, then SAR are called. This is standard practice among cavers, and should be used more within the outdoors community at large. Along with checkins and the like.

It's also worth noting that in terrain where civilization is days away, you really should be carrying an EPIRB of some kind. Fire off the get em out of here button, and await the whirly bird. In the mean time you have to stay alive. That is what your first aid kit is for.

Stopping blood loss from a puncture wound doesn't rely on a First Aid Kit. It relies on quick action with whatever suitable item you got handy at the relevant time. In Denmark first-aiders are trained to avoid using valuable time fetching a field dressing from a first aid kit - and just stop the bleeding by pressing ones thumb into the wound (if the wound is serious enough to be lifethreatening).

A human with a puncture wound to the femoral artery will be dead from blood loss before most people even have realised where they have packed their first aid kit.

I agree with everything you are saying. This is why my field dressing is in the left waist pocket of my backpack. First aid items are the only things in that pocket. I have considered moving it to bungied on my right shoulder strap. It is with me at all times.

Step one, apply pressure with your hand, step two, remove field dressing, and open it with other hand and teeth, apply dressing.

Not knowing where your first aid kit is, or having it in the depths of your pack is just silly IMHO.

The viewpoint I an trying to convey is that for some terrain and some environments the real safety lies in planning ones action to that extent that one can be quite sure to avoid injuries. Even with a SPOT, satellite phone (or similar) there are lots of places in the nordic contries where the response time for SAR will be several hours - if not days (in really bad winter conditions).

We are in total agreement here. In the UK we are spoilt, the response times are considerably quicker than what is expected in more remote areas.

Under these circumstances a first aid kit - packed with the items with can be administered by a normal layperson - is actually rather insignificant in regards to injuries which at all are surviable under such conditions.

Minor accidents can be alleviated by first aid kits. No one doubts that. A few adhesive bandages, a tick remover, some petroleum jelly, tweezers or similar items will be considered prudent carry by most outdoor-people. But unless the person using that kit have some kind of higher medical expertise the kits are not going to save lives in terrains where professional help is hours or days away.

Nope, but that is not a reason to leave the kit behind. Yes, most people if they get a severe injury on a mountain side in Norway will only be found when the snow thaws, and their body falls out the ice. Doesn't mean you shouldn't carry some form of first aid kit. What it does mean is you should have a higher level of training, and a higher speced kit.

I carry a space blanket myself. It is rainproof and windproof - if one can keep it out of strong winds. For use in a forrested terrain it is very usefull in combination with improvised shelters. It is useless above the tree line - as mentioned above.

I don't know Susanne Williams "Staying Alive Cold Kit", but the idea of the vindsäck is centuries old in scandinavia, The Jerven Bag is a more modern - and more versatile - rendering of the same general idea.

She explains it quite nicely in this [thread=119773]thread[/thread]. It is basically what you describe, and picture below.

When teaching courses in the colder months I insist that every one of the students - in addition to their other equipment - carry a large polyethylene bag (200L) and a tealight:

Even under horrendous weather conditions this combination has the potential to actually keep a person alive. I have been using this setup when teaching for the last 20 years. Is the "Staying Alive Cold Kit" similar?

Pretty much, yes, only with a reflective material, rather than the poly bag.

By comparison, most first aid kits for laypersons does not, by their very definition, contain items actually designed to keep a person alive over a prolonged period of time. First aid is just that - first aid. It is a stop-gap measure until the professionals can take over. The game changes drastically when in an environment where professional help is either days away or simply just not available.

Yep, I am in complete total agreement with you. At no point have I said otherwise.

But remember, most people on here are operating in conditions where help is nearer than that. Lets face it, many of the members of BCUK are only a few hundred yards from their cars. The numbers of us that make it into the true wilderness, days from help is small. I would like to think that those that do have the higher level of training to survive it.

Julia

 

[Blaidd]

Some tea lights last 2-4 hours. Best carry 4 or get good/special ones (and test them).
Also, I carry a small "trauma" kit in my pocket or on my belt if I'm outside, as Julia said, I don't want to have to "go and get it". (Very limited and only relating to life threatening injuries.)

 

[horsevad]

Me? I have my buddy beacon firing off every 5-10 minutes when I am alone. That solves the how to find me, how do they know to find me? I tell my buddy "going for a walk, back at 5" If I'm not back and reported in by 6, then SAR are called. This is standard practice among cavers, and should be used more within the outdoors community at large. Along with checkins and the like.

(...)

Julia

Thank you for your answer.

If everyone was as prepared as you seem to be in regards to both gear and mental preparation I have a feeling that the number of accidents in the wild would diminish...

When I am not teaching I do most of my travels solo. This is my reference point, and my answers are based upon that perspective. And for most of the really bad accidents which may happen when one is alone in the mountains my viewpoint is that the standard first-aid-kit is utterly useless.

The equation changes when one is responsible for some group and have the means of easy communication with professional SAR.

But even then, in the civilized areas of Denmark, I have actually been in a situation where it could have gone really wrong.

Some young participant in a course I was teaching for a school were stung in the mouth by a bee. Luckily he wasn't allergic, so the swelling never became directly life-threatening, but we had some hurry getting him to the hospital.

If he had been allergic, and we had been in a more remote setting, no standard first-aid-kit could have saved him. An EpiPen might, but in Denmark such items are unlawfull to use on other people without a medical degree. Neither can such items be bought by the general populace.

By the sound of your level of forethought and prepreparation you might be one of those who have the training to perform an improvised tracheostomy. I don't. And in Denmark that level of training is not available to ordinary people.

No part of my postings should be construed as obstructing or hindering your research. It is actually valuable information you are gathering.

Best of luck with your research!

//Kim Horsevad

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Thank you for your answer.

If everyone was as prepared as you seem to be in regards to both gear and mental preparation I have a feeling that the number of accidents in the wild would diminish...

I completely agree. I am very much an edgecase in most aspects of my life.

When I am not teaching I do most of my travels solo. This is my reference point, and my answers are based upon that perspective. And for most of the really bad accidents which may happen when one is alone in the mountains my viewpoint is that the standard first-aid-kit is utterly useless.

Yep, Most first aid kits are entirely useless unless all you have to worry about is a cut finger, or a tick. Anything more and you are screwed.

The equation changes when one is responsible for some group and have the means of easy communication with professional SAR.

But even then, in the civilized areas of Denmark, I have actually been in a situation where it could have gone really wrong.

Some young participant in a course I was teaching for a school were stung in the mouth by a bee. Luckily he wasn't allergic, so the swelling never became directly life-threatening, but we had some hurry getting him to the hospital.

What is the SAR provisioning in Denmark like? Even a bee sting that is compromising an airway like that would justify a blue light response from the ambulance crew in the UK. If you were on a mountainside, you may even get a whirly bird. Immediate danger to life.

If he had been allergic, and we had been in a more remote setting, no standard first-aid-kit could have saved him. An EpiPen might, but in Denmark such items are unlawfull to use on other people without a medical degree. Neither can such items be bought by the general populace.

*SERIOUSLY?!?!?* Here in the UK, administering an Epipen to someone having an anaphylactic shock is taught on any decent first aid course. You aren't allowed to carry a pen for use on someone else, but you are taught how to use a victim's own pen on the victim. Epipens are also prescription only. But to assist a person in anaphylactic shock to use their own pen on them, that is so basic anyone should be able to do it.

By the sound of your level of forethought and prepreparation you might be one of those who have the training to perform an improvised tracheostomy. I don't. And in Denmark that level of training is not available to ordinary people.

I do not have that level of training, and I don't carry the proper kit to do so. In the UK you need to be a paramedic (3 years at uni) to be able to do one, and even then they are the very last resort, after intubation with a Laryngoscope has failed. I don't carry a Laryngoscope.

There comes a point where you have to say "if this happens, where I am, if help can't get there quickly, well then tough". It's a harsh way of putting it, but it is the risk we all take when we set foot beyond civilisation. Yes there are SAR volunteers who will risk it to save you, and you can try to do everything possible to stack the odds in your favour. If you sever a femoral artery on a hillside in Scotland you're chances aren't great. If you go into anaphylactic on that same hillside, then chances are you will snuff it if you don't carry an epipen with you. Most people who suffer such allergies will carry an epi pen. Hope that either you or the person you're with can use it and it's not in the bottom of your bag.

It's all about your acceptable level of risk.

No part of my postings should be construed as obstructing or hindering your research. It is actually valuable information you are gathering.

Best of luck with your research!

Thank you. I assume from your tone that you're a bit fed up with what is sold and carried as an outdoors first aid kit by most people?

Thanks

Julia

 

[Bluffer]

Possibly a good time to point out that the victim (in the UK) would not have any initial direct communication with blue-light responders, MRT or SAR.

In theory, the blue-light response ought to be in minutes, however, that may be 30 minutes or longer depending on circumstances.

A typical MRT rescue would involve the victim fending for themselves for at least 2 hours, they publish stats so this can be verified.

I'm not sure how long a typical SAR (Bristow helicopter) rescue would take, I suppose it depends on circumstances.

 

[bambodoggy]

Also depends where you are and what you're doing....a small knife cut in the northern forests on a day trip isn't going to need much and worst case will stop bleeding sooner or later and be ok with or without treatment. On the other hand...if you are on an extended trip in tropical areas a little tube of antiseptic and a plaster/dressing to keep dirt out could save you a very nastily infected wound which if untreated could fester and get worse and worse....so in the north you might get away with not using a fak on every tiny cut and scrap but in hotter places a tiny little belt carried fak might stop potential problems in their tracks

Just my thoughts....and generalisations

 

[Big Stu 12]

Some tea lights last 2-4 hours.

You can get 9 hr tea lights as well

 

[Bluffer]

Also depends where you are and what you're doing....a small knife cut in the northern forests on a day trip isn't going to need much and worst case will stop bleeding sooner or later and be ok with or without treatment. On the other hand...if you are on an extended trip in tropical areas ...
Just my thoughts....and generalisations

True, but on the other hand most naughty tropical illnesses are insect-borne which means your clothing and sleeping arrangements are far more important than your FAK.

On a wider note and not aimed at anyone in particular:

Most peoples FAKs are purely cosmetic, it is the 'other stuff' that will protect and make good any injury.

Sunburn, blisters, etc, yeah they are likely and can be debilitating; but life-threatening they are generally not.

 

[bambodoggy]

True, but on the other hand most naughty tropical illnesses are insect-borne which means your clothing and sleeping arrangements are far more important

Yep....no argument from me there, just keeping it relative to faks and the discussion

Done a few bits and pieces in hot places and as you say personal admin is paramount in those places

 

[santaman2000]

.....Sunburn, blisters, etc, yeah they are likely and can be debilitating; but life-threatening they are generally not.

Life threatening:
-Sunburn? Agreed. At least not immediately, although skin cancer later is not only possible, but highly likely. 1st aid won't stop that though. Sun poisoning is another matter though.
-Blisters? It depends. Can you still walk out?

 

[Bluffer]

I'm from Yorkshire, we used to dream of having the sun poisoning

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

 

[santaman2000]

I've had it (albeit a mild case) when I spent a day on Lake Mead while stationed in the Nevada desert. Sun poisoning is radiation poisoning so not surprisingly, the symptoms are the same. Ironically you can get it in the UK as well thanks to your longer days; though yes, it more rare. Likewise snowy climates will reflect it back just as the lake did to me.

But whether your exposure rises to that level or not has no bearing on the long term effects. UV radiation exposure is cumulative over a lifetime and does cause skin cancer.