Body of young man found on Ben Nevis

[Toddy]

Its a bit tacky to talk like this of the dead so soon after it happened, bad form really; perhaps talking in more general terms about mountain safety would be a lot more appropriate.

My thoughts are with the lads family and loved ones. R.I.P.

Tell me Rik, when would be appropriate ?
When it's old soup and not headline stuff that folks actually pay attention to ? When it's an, "Oh that happened years ago!" and so forgotten that no one's learning from the tragedy ?
Or while it's fresh, and immediate, and a healthy young man was alive a fortnight ago and is not now

I know how devastated I'd feel if it were my son, Mr Manir's family and friends really do have my sympathy; but I suspect that they too would rather people actually learned from this horrible situation and it didn't 'ever' happen again.

Toddy

 

[BOD]

There is something called the 'Safety Paradox'.

How do you raise awareness of Safety? Answer - have more accidents.

After accidents, especially a series of incidents safety awareness (and compliance) is high and incidents go down.

Over time memories fade, especially among those who have never witnessed or been involved in an accident.

Compliance and awareness diminishes till BANG another incident occurs - people die or get mangled - and safety awareness rises.

Just after we contractors got a nice letter from the MD about x hours without an LTI, the client had a fatality! Guy sat on a flange and a 'christmas tree' fell on him

 

[BorderReiver]

A 20 year old person lost his life, and most (or some) of you mock him and are angry at him for being ill prepared. We make mistakes when we are young, no matter what your mistake is you should NEVER mock the dead. Think what his mother would feel if she read this thread!

Why?

Not that anyone has done so. He caused his own death, whether through wilful neglect or ignorance (for which there can be no excuse).

His grieving relatives (did He think about them?) are very unlikely to read any of this stuff.

 

[Dogoak]

Hm, I wonder how many of us know the exact circumstances, i.e. did the guy have a physical or mental health issue?
I am not saying he did, but it's really easy to criticise when you are only in possesion of the facts as reported by the media!

I am not in possesion of the full facts, therefore I can not make a judgement.

All I can say is that accidents do and will happen in the mountains and that is a fact. I would say that a very high percentage of people that go into the hills in winter are correctly equipped, but accidents still happen to them.
Unfortunately, in my own personal experience, I have seen quite a few with all the right gear but unfortunately not the knowledge to use it!

Any loss of life is sad and extremely tragic at such a young age, my thoughts go to his family and friends.


We are of course all free to express our thoughts but I would ask that people show respect.

 

[BorderReiver]

Hm, I wonder how many of us know the exact circumstances, i.e. did the guy have a physical or mental health issue?
I am not saying he did, but it's really easy to criticise when you are only in possesion of the facts as reported by the media!
I am not in possesion of the full facts, therefore I can not make a judgement.

All I can say is that accidents do and will happen in the mountains and that is a fact. I would say that a very high percentage of people that go into the hills in winter are correctly equipped, but accidents still happen to them.
Unfortunately, in my own personal experience, I have seen quite a few with all the right gear but unfortunately not the knowledge to use it!

Any loss of life is sad and extremely tragic at such a young age, my thoughts go to his family and friends.


We are of course all free to express our thoughts but I would ask that people show respect.

Yes it is, that's why we do it. The perceived facts are what we are commenting on.
This is an internet forum, not an official body or enquiry.

If the family were members of BcUK, or if we were to meet them in person, I'm sure ALL of us on here would afford them the human decency of respect and condolence.

 

[Bushwhacker]

I'm getting sick of these threads.

The sound-off in the OP highlights the intention and it turns into an ethical *bun fight.

if this post does anything to make someone actually listen to their advice, then it's well worth the effort.

Simple as.



*buns made using fairtrade flour and a sustainable source of cinnamon

 

[filcon]

My wife and pals from work climbed Ben Nevis for charity a couple of years ago, they trained and were equipped for the climb. Arrangements, weather forecasts were all made. Ice and snow warnings had been made and were heeded and they descended before reaching the summit due to conditions.
On the way down a family on holiday was ascending,a father carried a child in a papouse type thing whilst pulling a rope with his pregnant wife and child on tow.None of them had appropriate gear, sheer madness..
The next day somebody died in an avalanche on Ben Nevis.
This thread is not just about the death of one person. It,s the danger that ill prepared climbers put others lives at risk. It happens it will continue to happen until like all legislation a large loss of life will force changes in procedures and practices. Toddy has been totally realistic and correct in my opinion. Scotland has got its own country access code which is and should be respected. Visitor climbers are welcome but should take heed of safety advice and be accountable for their actions.

 

[bilmo-p5]

void - inappropriate

 

[dwolfhunter]

My wife and pals from work climbed Ben Nevis for charity a couple of years ago, they trained and were equipped for the climb. Arrangements, weather forecasts were all made. Ice and snow warnings had been made and were heeded and they descended before reaching the summit due to conditions.
On the way down a family on holiday was ascending,a father carried a child in a papouse type thing whilst pulling a rope with his pregnant wife and child on tow.None of them had appropriate gear, sheer madness..
The next day somebody died in an avalanche on Ben Nevis.
This thread is not just about the death of one person. It,s the danger that ill prepared climbers put others lives at risk. It happens it will continue to happen until like all legislation a large loss of life will force changes in procedures and practices. Toddy has been totally realistic and correct in my opinion. Scotland has got its own country access code which is and should be respected. Visitor climbers are welcome but should take heed of safety advice and be accountable for their actions.

I have to agree. As a veteran of the US armed forces I have experienced first hand that training and gear still do not prevent random disaster. THEY SURE AS HECK DO HELP, THOUGH. Toddy and the others who have spoken regarding the dangers inherant in climbing in the Nevis range and the cairngorms, have done so with equanimity and clearly cited facts. They have patently avoided abusing the young man who died...saying only that he was not prepared and he clearly did not know or did not correctly assess the risk he was undertaking.
I was in Scotland in October and I categorically refused to hear the requests by several of my tour group that we "take a hike/climb up Ben Nevis". I did this because we were nowhere near prepared for a climb of that magnitude( in October, in weather that was already dicey, etc...), and could not be made to be so with the time we had available. Risk assessed, risk reviewed...risk avoided.

 

[rik_uk3]

Tell me Rik, when would be appropriate ?
When it's old soup and not headline stuff that folks actually pay attention to ? When it's an, "Oh that happened years ago!" and so forgotten that no one's learning from the tragedy ?
Or while it's fresh, and immediate, and a healthy young man was alive a fortnight ago and is not now

I know how devastated I'd feel if it were my son, Mr Manir's family and friends really do have my sympathy; but I suspect that they too would rather people actually learned from this horrible situation and it didn't 'ever' happen again.

Toddy

Difficult Toddy. Perhaps a thread highlighting death and injury on mountains would be more acceptable IMHO rather than specifically highlighting a specific individual who is no yet even buried. The likelihood of his family and loved ones being or becoming aware of this thread is indeed slim but we should all deploy more sensitivity into the potential upset talking about this chap could bring.

I am all for highlighting mountain awareness but not in this manner, its appaling.

 

[No Idea]

I have carried out hundreds of ignorant ill conceived under prepared, and often plain ridiculous acts, plans, trips, you name it and got away scot free.... or at least breathing and a little wiser.

I have also got myself into just as much trouble, danger and pure terror doing things I was prepared trained and provisioned for.

Either way....

There but for the Grace of the Gods.....Whichever ones watch over fools and lunatics...goes I.

IMHO...Taking risks is how we learn, grow and know we are alive.

My thoughts go to those left behind.

 

[Tengu]

But you prepare lots, you told us so

 

[No Idea]

True.

I prepare lots because my experience has convinced me I need to.

I am just so lucky to have managed to get that experience without paying too higher price for it.

Same as most I would guess.

 

[Frogo]

I have carried out hundreds of ignorant ill conceived under prepared, and often plain ridiculous acts, plans, trips, you name it and got away scot free.... or at least breathing and a little wiser.

I have also got myself into just as much trouble, danger and pure terror doing things I was prepared trained and provisioned for.

Either way....

There but for the Grace of the Gods.....Whichever ones watch over fools and lunatics...goes I.

IMHO...Taking risks is how we learn, grow and know we are alive.

My thoughts go to those left behind.

I think you are right we all take risks, human nature i guess...time to let go.

 

[santaman2000]

Please remember that mrts' do it because they want too and enjoy their training days and real rescues.
If circumstances were different i'd be in the Strathclyde Police team now.

Please don't mention insurance,that's a money making exercise for ins' companies and doesn't benefit anyone else.
Rest assured mrt wouldn't be any better equipped.

RN and RAF search and rescue do it because it's the best training for when they have to do it for the troops.

People who go ill equipped and under dressed are free to do so if they wish.
There is plenty of advice regarding the dangers available to them before they venture out.

While stationed in England I served alongside the RAF on more than one occasion. Yes, they (and their RN counterparts) do civilian rescue it because it's good training but never think that's the only reason. They, like the US forces do it for a number of reasons. First and foremost they do it because it's the right thing to do; 2nd they do it because they are after all charged with protecting the British people (in this case the enemy is not a foreign attacker, so what?); 3rd they do it because the goodwill it generates and it helps recruiting. BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST: IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO and they are dedicated proffessionals.

 

[santaman2000]

These are the same type of folks who, here in the states, can be seen trying to hike in the Adirondacks, or Mount Washington, Grand Canyon etc... wearing sneakers, high heels, not carrying sufficient water,no map, no understanding of the wildlife and their habits. Trusting in the love of God and the Forest Service to save them if they run into trouble( mindless of the response time for most regional Ranger stations= 30-45 minutes at best, several hours at worst) Sad really.

And to make it worse, that time clock doesn't start until someone actually reports them as missing. Possibly days later. That is if they bothered to tell anybody where they were going.