I just read a topic on another forum about someones RAT-3 failing while batoning through a two inch sapling. It was due to the blade being made from D2 steel. I was surprised because I thought tool steels like D2 would be good for bushcraft because they are so hard. So what type of steel is the best for doing things like batoning and hard use jobs? Should you choose a knife with better toughness and flexibility? What specific steel do you prefer for bushcraft? I currently use the small version of the Buck NIghtHawk and it has worked well for me..thanks guys.
best knife steel for bushcraft?
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I really don't have much of a preference. I definately don't qualify as a 'steel snobber' either.
To be flat out honest, when I'm in the bush (which isn't near as often as I'd like) I probably use a simple SAK at least 75% of the time. It's a rarity that I actually pull out my Mora Clipper and if I do, it's usually only for something heavy duty like working on shelter poles.
I don't like carbon steel. At all. But I guess I'm biased having grown up around stainless knives.
I figure the best knife for bushcraft is the one you have on you. People have gotten on just fine in the bush with much less than a Mora.
Adam
To be flat out honest, when I'm in the bush (which isn't near as often as I'd like) I probably use a simple SAK at least 75% of the time. It's a rarity that I actually pull out my Mora Clipper and if I do, it's usually only for something heavy duty like working on shelter poles.
I don't like carbon steel. At all. But I guess I'm biased having grown up around stainless knives.
I figure the best knife for bushcraft is the one you have on you. People have gotten on just fine in the bush with much less than a Mora.
Adam
I don't suppose you could post a link to the thread about the RAT3 failing? Seems odd. The knife is meant for tough field use and I had understood that D2 could be treated to be quite tough enough.
A2 is tougher but rusts a bit more readily. O-1 can be tough or brittle depending on how hard it has been left, at the same hardness as A2 I don't think it is quite as tough. The CPM steels are good for toughness and edge holding, but less easy to sharpen. Heat treatment is going to make more difference than the exact steel used, for instance Bob Dozier makes a LOT of working knives in D2 and is acknowleged as really knowing how to get the most from it.
A2 is tougher but rusts a bit more readily. O-1 can be tough or brittle depending on how hard it has been left, at the same hardness as A2 I don't think it is quite as tough. The CPM steels are good for toughness and edge holding, but less easy to sharpen. Heat treatment is going to make more difference than the exact steel used, for instance Bob Dozier makes a LOT of working knives in D2 and is acknowleged as really knowing how to get the most from it.
With the increased hardness comes brittleness, tool steels do not like impact or being asked to flex.
Batoning a sapling may well have meant that the knife was at an angle to the work piece and not struck squarely with the baton, I would guess that it snapped like a carrot.
Tool steels and powder metallurgy metals make great cutting tools not axes.
Batoning a sapling may well have meant that the knife was at an angle to the work piece and not struck squarely with the baton, I would guess that it snapped like a carrot.
Tool steels and powder metallurgy metals make great cutting tools not axes.
But they some of them should easilly be tough to batton. 01 is a good example of this.
If toughness is really really important to you En42 or 1075 type steels will suit best. And you get get them extremely sharp but they wont hold an edge as well as 01 due to its alloy content
pothunter said:
That's generally true, yes. But how would you explain the tendency of a stainless Mora blade (57hrc) to easily chip when batonned while a carbon Mora, (60hrc) seems to hold up much better?
I'm not a metallurgist and I understand that stainless has very different properties than carbon but this sounds very much like a giant exception.
I know I'm just feeding the fire here, but I'm curious what sort of responses I'll get.
No harm done, right?
Adam
D2 when used for industrial punching works well but relies upon the work piece being firmly held and the punch impacting 'square' to the work piece.
Toughness is a consideration as is edge retention therefore a compromise must be made.
The knife in question has a deep blade when compared with its thickness and overall length this may have contributed to its failure as a high degree of leverage could be applied either from the handle or from the spine when batoning.
Comparing the style of knife in question and the bushcraft type knives produced by most UK knife makers the added thickness in relation to depth may well ensured that the blade would not fail in the same application.
However still don't like the idea of hitting D2.
Toughness is a consideration as is edge retention therefore a compromise must be made.
The knife in question has a deep blade when compared with its thickness and overall length this may have contributed to its failure as a high degree of leverage could be applied either from the handle or from the spine when batoning.
Comparing the style of knife in question and the bushcraft type knives produced by most UK knife makers the added thickness in relation to depth may well ensured that the blade would not fail in the same application.
However still don't like the idea of hitting D2.
Because the carbon one is made of a tougher steel. If they use 12c27 in the stainless ones it has 14% chromium in it. Which will result in it becoming more brittle. While the carbon one probably uses a simple carbon steel probably equivalent to 1095 (guess because it says high carbon)
Basically when enough chromium is added to make a steel stainless a weakening of the grain boundaries happen, which make it less tough (in general)
I believe the nicest bush knife steel to be 6mm thick headsaw steel. The blades are big. I've got one180 cm in dia. and 190 kg. Most that were used around here in B.C. where we live were 130 cm in dia.
The proof I have is experience with making knives, and tools for timberframers and log home builders. It is hard to work with, forging etc... but it's an incredible high carbon steel. Very tough. If you can get some it is worth the trouble. They are not used any more but I've found that people find it hard to toss them out so they end up leaning against a wall somewhere.
It is still easy to sharpen because it is still a carbon steel with a molybdenum, chromium and nickel content.
Headsaw
Cariboo Blades Tools and Knives
The proof I have is experience with making knives, and tools for timberframers and log home builders. It is hard to work with, forging etc... but it's an incredible high carbon steel. Very tough. If you can get some it is worth the trouble. They are not used any more but I've found that people find it hard to toss them out so they end up leaning against a wall somewhere.
It is still easy to sharpen because it is still a carbon steel with a molybdenum, chromium and nickel content.
Headsaw
Cariboo Blades Tools and Knives
This is all assuming the blade is evenly tempered mono steel. Hardeness and toughness can be combined by either using two different types of steel laminated together or by hardening or tempering the edge differently from the spine. This is one of the advantages of shallow hardening plain carbon tool steels, they can be differentially hardened by edge-quenching or clay-coating. This can't be done (or done with so much control) with air hardening steel or deeper hardening oil hardening steels.
D2 is a good steel for bushcraft. If someone could break one of my bushcraft knives made of D2 with normal use, I would gladly replace it,
That's probably because with the wear resistance of stainless, you really haven't sharpened it properly. The only real weakness of the stainless Mora blades is in scraping. The stainless doesn't take to lateral stresses too well, and so the edge degrades faster than carbon and so takes much longer to resharpen.
The only exception I've found is with knives sold under the Normark label by Canadian Tire which "appear" to be Moras.
It still takes me quite a while to set up a Mora as I completely flatten the edge bevels to get a straight and even edge. Then I flatten the blade sides, and finally round the tops of the bevel shoulders. Finally I convex everything with a drywall sander and polish. Once the blade is into the material, there's far less friction, and the edge isn't actually cutting, the bevels are wedging the material apart. So I can do a lot of battoning with a cheap stainless Mora on seasoned wood and still not wreck the edge.
Jimbo,
Thanks for the input. I was just speaking from a strictly theoretical point of view. I do however, completely agree with your sentiment about the stainless Mora not handling lateral stresses very well.
Does this make me the only one who notices how easily it chips when batonning? Perhaps my technique is lacking??? Because truth be told, other than ease of sharpening the only difference I've noticed between the two Moras is the tendency of 12c27 to chip.
Does that make any sense at all?
Adam
Thanks for the input. I was just speaking from a strictly theoretical point of view. I do however, completely agree with your sentiment about the stainless Mora not handling lateral stresses very well.
Does this make me the only one who notices how easily it chips when batonning? Perhaps my technique is lacking??? Because truth be told, other than ease of sharpening the only difference I've noticed between the two Moras is the tendency of 12c27 to chip.
Does that make any sense at all?
Adam
It gets more tricky when you bring handmade knives into the equation.
Different heat treating techniques allow you to have different qualities for any given steel. For example a blade that has a range hardened/variable temper heat treat will allow you to have a harder edge for greater edge retention and a softer back thus supporting it.
Also, some of the better makers will tweak the heat treat so that they can get the best performance out of the steel they use, better than any batch process can offer. For example, I recently overhauled my HT techniques to improve toughness and now with the blades that I make now, you can batton the thing through 5mm mild steel bar without chipping or rolling the edge, but in the process I also managed to increase the edge retention by a decent margin.
Broadly speaking, carbon steels (particularly the less complex alloys) allow you to make these adjustments and so get better quality blades. Stainless blades can be good steels, but they are never as tough as carbon, also the edge retention tends to be lower (not to mention the ease of sharpening). I would only use a stainless knife for sea fishing myself!
just my opinion
Different heat treating techniques allow you to have different qualities for any given steel. For example a blade that has a range hardened/variable temper heat treat will allow you to have a harder edge for greater edge retention and a softer back thus supporting it.
Also, some of the better makers will tweak the heat treat so that they can get the best performance out of the steel they use, better than any batch process can offer. For example, I recently overhauled my HT techniques to improve toughness and now with the blades that I make now, you can batton the thing through 5mm mild steel bar without chipping or rolling the edge, but in the process I also managed to increase the edge retention by a decent margin.
Broadly speaking, carbon steels (particularly the less complex alloys) allow you to make these adjustments and so get better quality blades. Stainless blades can be good steels, but they are never as tough as carbon, also the edge retention tends to be lower (not to mention the ease of sharpening). I would only use a stainless knife for sea fishing myself!
just my opinion
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