Bahco Axe issue

[British Red]

Had a couple of notes from them myself. They strike me as really weasel like and using loads of corporate double speak. They are also shifting axe production away from Sweden and the like - which strikes me as exactly what happens when good manufacturers are bought out by suits who simply don't get what goes into a good tool

 

[spader]

I file sharpened my Bahco axe edge, and did some wood processing. It seems working OK - sharp and no chipping. The woods processed were rock hard dried ash logs.

 

[mr dazzler]

I once owned a swedish made bahco axe, it was superb, would go and go and go. And I almost always used a file on it that was all. No need to fanny about with scary sharp or jap waterstone nonsense. It had the perfect compromise between toughness and not being too brittle, pretty much like disston saw steels. It never chipped ever. I sold it-and regretted it. But the roselli is just as good. I do miss the acute toe point though, very good to reach into concave forms.

 

[petrochemicals]

So another case of good company gets bought, production shifts, quality abismal?
I like a file on an axe if it's soft enough, but a wet stone whet stone grinder is far quicker, both finished with a superfine sawtooth file cutting into the blade( mind your hands) is as fine as you need.

 

[HillBill]

Files dont skate off axes. If they did, they wouldn't be used to sharpen axes, be very dangerous seeing as you cut towards the edge!!

The average axe is around 55Rc, the average file is around 60. If a file skates then its rubbish.(or the axe is too hard).. If it bites then good.... thats what its a supposed to do. Not watched the vids, but will do now.

 

[HillBill]

Nothing conclusive there. No stropping to remove burrs, narrowed the blade down a lot, cutting into wood with hard sap pockets and knots. If fir is anything like pine... the knots can kill any axe, even a Gransfors......

 

[mr dazzler]

Files dont skate off axes. If they did, they wouldn't be used to sharpen axes, be very dangerous seeing as you cut towards the edge!!

The average axe is around 55Rc, the average file is around 60. If a file skates then its rubbish.(or the axe is too hard).. If it bites then good.... thats what its a supposed to do. Not watched the vids, but will do now.

I was once given a disston 1960's "cadillac" styled saw to set and sharpen. It was the one with the handle made of "aloominnnum" with rosewood inserts. It was the one and only time when I came across a piece of crap disston steel. there was a short section, around 2 1/2 inches, near the heel, where the steel was TOUGH I mean reallly TOUGH, like glass. Just attempting to file the teeth on that short section ruined 2 files, but the rest of the blade was relatively fine. But the 60's disstons were washed up any way, they had given up on the impeccably high standards set by H Disston to start with

 

[Draven]

Damn shame, I hadn't heard about Bahco's quality going to hell. Flea markets and antique malls are fast becoming the only way to get decent hand tools at decent prices. Picked up a stanley #4 plane (IIRC) for $10 the other day

 

[OldJimbo]

Files dont skate off axes. If they did, they wouldn't be used to sharpen axes, be very dangerous seeing as you cut towards the edge!!

The average axe is around 55Rc, the average file is around 60. If a file skates then its rubbish.(or the axe is too hard).. If it bites then good.... thats what its a supposed to do. Not watched the vids, but will do now.

One of the strangest stories ever with axes is with the Canadian "Warren Axe Co" which produced axes under their own name and for Sager Chemical until they closed in 1951. They forged axes which are basically too hard to be filed, yet tough (not brittle). Supposedly they had a special proprietary heat treat with their gas furnaces. Some Kelly "World Famous" axes were produced in the 1950's with the same characteristics. Anyway it takes a lot of work with an angle grinder and coarse disks to make any impression, and I've never had an edge chip out. I've puzzled for well over a decade as to why such axes were ever made when "normal" axes work so well, and if they are some tungsten steel alloy or something.

With Bahco, well welcome to the age where cutting prices means production in countries with lower labour costs and little quality control.

 

[mr dazzler]

With Bahco, well welcome to the age where cutting prices means production in countries with lower labour costs and little quality control.

Same as the old sheffield tool makers-sorby, S&J, marples, elwells, brades etc plus bahco sweden, disston (England then America), etc etc, they made quality stuff because they regarded it as morally proper to do so in return for a price. Now its "morally proper" to build down and down and even further down to a price, so that the people who invested in the hi tech computer machinery dont have to pay to train and employ skilled men, and make max profit for least return. When I go in hardware shops and see "far eastern" c##p etc my heart sinks. My wife got a small pair of wire nippers for bending wire, made in india. Snapped clean through because of poor fitting and shoddy heat treat.

 

[mrcharly]

This is partly our own fault. We've become accustomed to ever-cheaper (comparatively) goods. People don't want to pay what it actually costs for something well made out of good materials.

 

[mr dazzler]

You are right of course. I remember the 70's when it was trendy to knock folk who "kept stuff" and made use of it (as many did), being thrifty etc-and they promoted consumerism instead. And the reverse is the case now LOL
Check out Brian Russell (Little Newsham) he is one of the best blacksmiths in Britain without a shadow of a doubt, a smiths smith if you will, not far from where you live. He charged me about £180 to make some tools in 1991. For me at that time that was a scary amount, my wife thought I was nuts. But I still have them and use the drawknife regular to this day. Plus he taught me how to rivet...

 

[British Red]

This is partly our own fault. We've become accustomed to ever-cheaper (comparatively) goods. People don't want to pay what it actually costs for something well made out of good materials.

I think that's a very valid point. I think people also look for disposable cheap tools (e.g. panel saws) rather than more costly user maintained items.

 

[demographic]

I think that's a very valid point. I think people also look for disposable cheap tools (e.g. panel saws) rather than more costly user maintained items.

I'm not sure hand saws are the best example for that. Certainly not for site use anyway, maybe for a joiners workshop but they have all the machines avalible anyway.
The time spent (maybe half an hour) in a Friday afternoon sharpening them adds up to becoming very expensive versus the fiver per saw I pay for the ones that last longer before they are blunt.

Or put it this way. Most carpenters and joiners are pretty tight and don't like spending money if they can avoid it. I don't know a single one that still regularly uses a resharpanable handsaw on site.
We don't do that because we like giving plumbers old handsaws to cut plastic guttering with.

I don't actually like the fact that the economics work out at making disposable Bahco, Spear & Jacksons/ whatever a cheaper bet in the long run as I like things that last for ever but as soon as you count the time spent sharpening them as money (people who always work on an hourly rate can faff about and pretend this isn't a factor but it is to the people they work for) a saw that costs a fiver and lasts a month as first saw and another month as "saw you don't mind cutting timber that's got concrete on or near" makes sense.
Then the college I went to used to cut up old blunt handsaws to make rectangular cabinet scrapers out of the blade so they get a second life.

Also if you use reclaimed timber the noise of a resharpanable handsaw hitting an old embedded nail and breaking a few teeth off is heartbreaking.

 

[British Red]

I'm not sure hand saws are the best example for that..

It's a perfect example. You have explained why you use disposable tools. You aren't disputing the statement that

. People also look for disposable cheap tools (e.g. panel saws) rather than more costly user maintained items.

 

[mrcharly]

Ain't going to argue with you about that, Demographic.

Personally I find it is a bit like musical instruments. A good musician can make a cheap instrument sound good. A beginner will find it easier to get good sounds out of a good instrument.

I was bought an expensive handsaw by my mum, many years ago. I was a bit embarrassed as at best I'm indifferent at carpentry. However I found it much easier to make square cuts using this saw than any other I'd used (possibly partly due to the weight and rigidity of the blade).

 

[OldJimbo]

This is partly our own fault. We've become accustomed to ever-cheaper (comparatively) goods. People don't want to pay what it actually costs for something well made out of good materials.

Typically though, with some searching and extra expense a person can get what they want.

The scary parts are that:
1. It can be tough to find good tools locally.
2. The move to cut costs can go into fields which you might not want to think about:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/panorama/2011/06/surgerys_dirty_secrets_-_join.html

 

[Draven]

I do like the saws with induction hardened teeth, I must admit - especially when you're cutting a lot of timber. They cut faaaast! But that's also a problem - today I was building a workbench and using douglas fir for the legs and bracing - the saw was a modern job, brand new and very sharp. it was absurdly easy to make a mistake that would cost me a square edge. I was able to straighten out each screwup and wind up with a basically square piece after a little trimming with a mora - the waste side of the wood was completely messed up though and would have required a fresh cut if it wasn't to be scrapped. Traditional crosscut saws I've used, while slower in the cut, seem to run truer and leave a smoother surface. That could also be down to quality though - maybe a high quality modern induction-hardened-teeth saw would be better, but why pay more for an ultimately disposable tool? This is all compounded by me not being that experienced in making good square cuts - but I've definitely noticed modern saws magnifying my faults.

I'm going to make it a point to keep an eye out for quality old saws and teach myself how to sharpen them. It seems silly that I can sharpen an axe and a knife to a razor-like edge but I can't sharpen a saw. Hopefully an old saw will be easier to find than chisels.

PS: Old tools show up in the darnedest places. I picked up a nice old 3 1/2lb double bit head and an unused rigging hatchet from a scrapyard among broken washing machines and bicycles. An antique mall (big) about 30 minutes out has a bunch of two-man saws sitting outside with the junk (next time I go I'm gonna check those out). I've played around with a bunch of old tools and they all met or exceeded modern expectations.

 

[mr dazzler]

I do like the saws with induction hardened teeth, I must admit - especially when you're cutting a lot of timber. They cut faaaast! But that's also a problem - today I was building a workbench and using douglas fir for the legs and bracing - the saw was a modern job, brand new and very sharp. it was absurdly easy to make a mistake that would cost me a square edge. I was able to straighten out each screwup and wind up with a basically square piece after a little trimming with a mora - the waste side of the wood was completely messed up though and would have required a fresh cut if it wasn't to be scrapped. Traditional crosscut saws I've used, while slower in the cut, seem to run truer and leave a smoother surface. That could also be down to quality though - maybe a high quality modern induction-hardened-teeth saw would be better, but why pay more for an ultimately disposable tool? This is all compounded by me not being that experienced in making good square cuts - but I've definitely noticed modern saws magnifying my faults.

I'm going to make it a point to keep an eye out for quality old saws and teach myself how to sharpen them. It seems silly that I can sharpen an axe and a knife to a razor-like edge but I can't sharpen a saw. Hopefully an old saw will be easier to find than chisels.

PS: Old tools show up in the darnedest places. I picked up a nice old 3 1/2lb double bit head and an unused rigging hatchet from a scrapyard among broken washing machines and bicycles. An antique mall (big) about 30 minutes out has a bunch of two-man saws sitting outside with the junk (next time I go I'm gonna check those out). I've played around with a bunch of old tools and they all met or exceeded modern expectations.

The 2 problems with those hardpoint saws is that they have no set on the teeth, and are not taper ground.
On a traditional saw, the teeth splay out a tiny amount alternately left-right-left-right so the kerf is fractionally wider than the rest of the blade. Hardpoints are exactly the same thickness at the teeth and throughout the area of the blade.
The taper grinding on good old saws means that the blade gets fractionally thinner at the top of the blade. This, combined with the set of the teeth means that the blade is less likely to jam in the kerf, and the cut is much much easier to guide, as there is far less friction and you have the ability to "steer" ever so slightly one way or the other to saw to the line. Once a hard point veers off the line, especially on eg 4 inch square fence posts, they are next to impossible to correct. I used bahco hardpoints at one time, they were not bad, and had a teflon coating to ease the friction in the kerf. But if you get to use a well set well sharpened traditional saw, they cut every bit as fast and clean as a hardpoint, but with less effort and more control. Plus the old handles are made of nice cool and comfortable woods such as apple wood or pear wood rather than a lump of naff yellow and black plasticokenest:

 

[MartiniDave]

I have 2 bahco axes, one a hatchet one more the size of a forest axe. Both are well over 10 years old. The larger axe is pretty good, not in the Gransfor Bruks class, but useable. The hatchet is fit only for splitting kindling, the steel isn't much harder than butter. I won't be buying any more of them.

Lets hope the quality of Laplander saws doesn't drop off.

Incidentally, Paul Sellers on you tube does some excellent videos on saw setting and sharpening.

Dave