As far as I can tell the hardened teeth are hardened after sharpening as the tarnish is only surface staining that wears away, so it must be that they are just as sharp as other saws when first sharpened. Most people (including my father) never did enough woodwork to warrent sharpening, so I neverknew of it. My sharpening insight with regards totools comes from my now passed on uncle, carpenter 50 years. Brace and bits chisels saws, but even he rated the hardpoints, probably as they kept sharp so much longer. If you use a very hard file to sharpen they will sharpen the hard point teeth, but the old softer saw tooth files will just blunt themselves. Any idea how to to reharden the teeth?
Bahco Axe issue
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I actually wound up picking up an antique Disston saw the other day... thought it would be a good one (and it is). Unfortunately it wound up being over 100 years old, a less common model that has no set in the teeth (setting the teeth will break them) and is intended exclusively for cutting seasoned hardwoods in cabinet making. Not ideal for me 
But for $17 I'm not complaining.
petrochemicals, the teeth on hard point saws are induction hardened, which most people don't have the equipment for. I think it would be challenging hardening something that large and thin at home. And hardly worth it when old saws can often be found cheaper than a hardpoint!
Also worth noting, the hard point saws can be fragile. I had one that got a nice big ding in the middle of the cutting edge a couple months ago - several teeth missing and the softer steel behind them bent.
But for $17 I'm not complaining.petrochemicals, the teeth on hard point saws are induction hardened, which most people don't have the equipment for. I think it would be challenging hardening something that large and thin at home. And hardly worth it when old saws can often be found cheaper than a hardpoint!
Also worth noting, the hard point saws can be fragile. I had one that got a nice big ding in the middle of the cutting edge a couple months ago - several teeth missing and the softer steel behind them bent.
You could always try ebay plenty of saws on there. flat sided saws do give precice cuts, at least the cross cut ones do, you can cut to a line, I always wondered why I couldn't dovetail (even though that would be a rip cut). I wouldn't try and curve them either.
You're right about the fragility of the hard points, it is a problem, they do blunt or chip if mistreated, and sharpening them is hard. My bowsawblade has hardpoints but the teeth are soft for the most part so I think that they will bend long before shattering. I would like to try hardening so maybe i'll have a go with a gas stove or blowtorch, I suppose it's only the surface that needs hardening.
You're right about the fragility of the hard points, it is a problem, they do blunt or chip if mistreated, and sharpening them is hard. My bowsawblade has hardpoints but the teeth are soft for the most part so I think that they will bend long before shattering. I would like to try hardening so maybe i'll have a go with a gas stove or blowtorch, I suppose it's only the surface that needs hardening.
Is that a panel saw or a tenon saw? If its a panel saw does it have a strainght top with a "nib" near the end?I actually wound up picking up an antique Disston saw the other day... thought it would be a good one (and it is). Unfortunately it wound up being over 100 years old, a less common model that has no set in the teeth (setting the teeth will break them) and is intended exclusively for cutting seasoned hardwoods in cabinet making. Not ideal for me
You should be ok putting set into the teeth so long as you always set them the same direction. The tendency to snap is greatly increased if the teeth were set one direction (eg to the right) then were reset going to the left (or vice versa) that puts too much stress in the teeth and they will often break. They should always be set the same direction every time. And in any case a few missing teeth is no major problem, they will reappear after a few sharpenings....Of course the other downside to persisting with a traditional saw is the ever increasing difficulty in obtaining decent 3 square files to sharpen with.....
It's this one:
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/acmepage.html
Mine's not in as good condition as the ones shown there - it's clearly been used a lot and stored a while, it has spotty rust. You can see the remnants of the logo and writing on the blade, but it's illegible. Engraved with the name 'Charles Tompkins'. But it originally had writing stating:
"Warranted to run without set in dry seasoned lumber only and is not for general use. Being very hard, any attempt to set may break the teeth."
Unfortunately that page also states that the files used to sharpen it are no longer made. It also states that they they can/do survive conventional filing with set. I cut with it yesterday and it was amazing - bound a bit due to the rust, but cut an extremely smooth, straight line. Surprisingly fast for so smooth a cut.
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/acmepage.html
Mine's not in as good condition as the ones shown there - it's clearly been used a lot and stored a while, it has spotty rust. You can see the remnants of the logo and writing on the blade, but it's illegible. Engraved with the name 'Charles Tompkins'. But it originally had writing stating:
"Warranted to run without set in dry seasoned lumber only and is not for general use. Being very hard, any attempt to set may break the teeth."
Unfortunately that page also states that the files used to sharpen it are no longer made. It also states that they they can/do survive conventional filing with set. I cut with it yesterday and it was amazing - bound a bit due to the rust, but cut an extremely smooth, straight line. Surprisingly fast for so smooth a cut.
The 2 problems with those hardpoint saws is that they have no set on the teeth, and are not taper ground.
On a traditional saw, the teeth splay out a tiny amount alternately left-right-left-right so the kerf is fractionally wider than the rest of the blade. Hardpoints are exactly the same thickness at the teeth and throughout the area of the blade.
The taper grinding on good old saws means that the blade gets fractionally thinner at the top of the blade. This, combined with the set of the teeth means that the blade is less likely to jam in the kerf, and the cut is much much easier to guide, as there is far less friction and you have the ability to "steer" ever so slightly one way or the other to saw to the line. Once a hard point veers off the line, especially on eg 4 inch square fence posts, they are next to impossible to correct. I used bahco hardpoints at one time, they were not bad, and had a teflon coating to ease the friction in the kerf. But if you get to use a well set well sharpened traditional saw, they cut every bit as fast and clean as a hardpoint, but with less effort and more control. Plus the old handles are made of nice cool and comfortable woods such as apple wood or pear wood rather than a lump of naff yellow and black plastic
Dunno where you were buying your hardpoints but the ones I've always bought had set on the teeth.
Only ones that were a problem were some £3.99 ones from Wickes.
I'd been buying the £3.99 ones for a while (they used to say Jack on the blade) then they changed them (no longer said Jack on the blade) and the new one had very little set. At the time I was working on a very big roof and was cutting a lot of wet wood so it was a problem.
Went back to paying a fiver a pop for the Spear & Jackson ones instead. No more problems.
Well, you learn something new every day! I never knew diston made a saw like that. It looks like it would be extremely useful to do tight scribe fit tennon shoulders, also to do a vee joint like on a saz (turkish lute) where the neck is joined with a vee similar to a cricket bat handle. I could see this being good to run between the body and neck at the same time to get a perfect smooth scribed fit, reaqdy to glue, in two passes..
The link says the files to sharpen your saw are no longer available, but you could possibly modify a standard 3 square by removing one face of teeth on a grinder or belt sander then polish it smooth?
On a standard rip or crosscut saw, both types use a standard 3 square file (ie triangular in cross section) to sharpen. The difference between the styles is rip teeth are filed at 90 degrees, and level, to get the tiny "mortise chisel" on the end of each tooth. Crosscut have 2 compound angles (rake and fleam, to get needle sharp cutting tips on the end of each tooth) which is why they are harder to file consistently. You vary these angles depending on what wood you cutting, compromise between speed of cut and durability of tooth points etc etc
If you look on a swiss army knife blade(which I think is a brilliat saw) which is a flat sided crosscut, it has teeth filed at 90 degrees( or 45 to the blade) on the direction across, and the file must be held at an elevation to the blade face, with the file being held equally on its faces with a 60 60 60 degree tooth pattern, so as it cuts on the push and poll stroke. This plobably gives the finest points achievable on a cross cut saw. If you have rake AND fleam the tooth has a less pronounced point.
the one I have is sharpened more like a crosscut - ie lots of little knife edges rather than the chisels of a rip saw. According to the site i linked to earlier, the file used had two safe-cut sides and one cutting side, with angles of 30 degrees on one edge and 40 on the other. They imply that the file was made specifically for this saw. Grinding one of approximately correct dimensions shouldn't be too difficult, particularly given that two sides are safe anyway. It also has a very heavy taper from teeth to back edge.
I cut through a piece of seasoned 1" thick oak board and man, it amazes me how smooth the cut is even with my crummy technique.
According to that site, prices in the time frame my saw was made (1896-1916 if memory serves) was about $32 - that's a lot of money for way back then.
I cut through a piece of seasoned 1" thick oak board and man, it amazes me how smooth the cut is even with my crummy technique.
According to that site, prices in the time frame my saw was made (1896-1916 if memory serves) was about $32 - that's a lot of money for way back then.
But thats the point...depending on what species of wood you are cutting, your pronounced points can disappear in 10 minutes or less in something dry (not green) and dense such as oak or even beech. Alder or willow on the other hand....sometimes you want a more durable point that will stand up to hard use, the downside being it wont be quite as "sharp" Its a compromised play off between speed of cut and durability of tooth point.
It seems a lot of money, but I am guessing, if it did away with the need to uses a shooting board or mitre board, the benefit was the huge amount of time saved while doing architraved mouldings around doors and windows, skirtings etc seeing as American houses had a lot of that decorative trim back then.
Anyway Draven sounds like you have a little gem there
. It will improve even more once that rust spot wears off, and if you apply a little wax to the blade.Yep, your quite right, a nice expensive saw, that cuts quick with a rough cut isn't what they where aiming for.
It seems a lot of money, but I am guessing, if it did away with the need to uses a shooting board or mitre board, the benefit was the huge amount of time saved while doing architraved mouldings around doors and windows, skirtings etc seeing as American houses had a lot of that decorative trim back then.
Anyway Draven sounds like you have a little gem there
True indeed
Thanks for the wax suggestion also, I was thinking about something to ease the binding but oil would get in he wood - wax should work great!
Please forgive the intrusion, with a question for you gentlemen. Does Bahco make the Stihl axes/hatchets for North America ? If not, do you know who the manufacturer is? Thanks.
Now I thought they did up until a couple of days ago when I read that the stihl axe heads are made in Germany by a German company. I have a stihl forest hatchet that looks just like the bahco hatchet. In fact run the brand name of stihl off and you would not know which one was which just by looking at them
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