Assertive First Response

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BOD

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
A recent thread elsewhere set me thinking.


All too often in schools and workplaces bullies get away because the "meek" do not stand up for themselves and then do not tell teacher or make a complaint. Other meek observers do nothing for fear of attracting attention and getting in the cross-hairs of the bully. This is rational risk avoidance behavior (as in economics) at the individual level and is quite understandable. It is flight and freeze behaviour


The education system and workplace culture discourages any attempt to stand up for oneself and the only "appropriate" response is to make a report. If you assert yourself you get into trouble too. But this is also a natural response - Fight behaviour


But in some cultures, Anglo-Australian for instance, "telling" gets you in trouble for "dubbing" on others and can make you more of a social outcast.


Apart from the effect on the self confidence of the complaining child/person this has a knock on effect on the whole society and discourages "whistle blowing' on serious criminal acts. Which is why Australia has a high rate of corruption and organised crime.


Our girls have been raised on the principle that "She will never have to rely on any bloke for anything". This has meant simply being physically active and competent with their hands so they "do" camping, use knives and know how to use cordage. etc.


Recently, while talking with our 11 year old about the difference between aggression and assertiveness she interrupted to say "Oh I've done that".


A 13 year old boy had taken her drink and started drinking from it. She told him it was hers and to lay off. He ignored her and continued drinking with his mates. The drink vanishing before her eyes, she told him to get her another one. Again he ignored her.


She then gave him a roundhouse knock-you-down full open hand whack across his face. He didn't fall down but he was pretty shaken. Threatened with another he meekly went and got her another drink.


In another instance, a different boy pulled her hair and received a boxing on his ears.


She has not been picked on since.


We never knew about this. She matter of factly explained the culture. One is supposed to complain but repeated complaints label you a whiner but she was not content to remain meek. Getting into a fight means you get detention.

While we do not need vigilantism the system should encourage reporting and but also understand that defending oneself and turning the tables is an appropriate response too.


Sometimes we have to fight to defend our freedoms whether as societies or individuals and if our ability to fight as individuals is weakened then we cannot effectively fight as a society.
 

Waldganger

Forager
Aug 13, 2009
190
0
42
Esperance, WA
are you an Aussie or Brit national?

Where abouts do you go when you head outdoors?

I'm about 7 hours drive away, looking at getting into a smaller town than this one (pop. 14500)
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,137
2,878
66
Pembrokeshire
When a friend and I became the target of a bully at school we loaded or satchels (remember those?) with books and both of us laid into him at full strap length, knocking seven bells out of him without us getting in range of his kicks and punches....sure, one to one he would have beaten us to a pulp - easily - but cunning, brains and team work had him beat!
We had no further trouble from the bully.....
 

BOD

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

tobes01

Full Member
May 4, 2009
1,902
45
Hampshire
Well done her (and you). Despite being one of the bigger kids, I spent 4 years being knocked around by a range of idiots, only came to an end when I finally went for the 'nuclear' option and plucked up the courage to deck one of them. Never had a problem after that.
 

locum76

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 9, 2005
2,772
9
47
Kirkliston
Well done her (and you). Despite being one of the bigger kids, I spent 4 years being knocked around by a range of idiots, only came to an end when I finally went for the 'nuclear' option and plucked up the courage to deck one of them. Never had a problem after that.

ditto. :rolleyes:
 

Firebringer

Full Member
Jun 5, 2009
110
0
49
Scotland
Well done BOD (Cool username and avatar by the way), with hindsight I regret not standing up for myself more at School. Even years later it still burns a bit. If I had my time again I'd definitely resort with eagerness and glee to ultima ratio regum (force)
 

Laurentius

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 13, 2009
2,433
629
Knowhere
There is a problem though, if you take pre emptive action you are the one who might get punished for being the bully.

I did put an end to one kid's bullying of me on the top deck of a bus once, heaven knows how I managed this feat surpassing even Bruce Lee in such a confined space, but I gave him a roundhouse kick in the teeth, he respected me after that, but if I had been caught doing that I would have been the one in trouble.
 

BOD

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
There is a problem though, if you take pre emptive action you are the one who might get punished for being the bully.

I did put an end to one kid's bullying of me on the top deck of a bus once, heaven knows how I managed this feat surpassing even Bruce Lee in such a confined space, but I gave him a roundhouse kick in the teeth, he respected me after that, but if I had been caught doing that I would have been the one in trouble.

Yes you might but even so he is less likely to mess with you again. By not complaining and telling you get 'respect'.

In school I had a punch up with a member of the school's first XV (rugby) I did not win but remained on my feet though he did much better in terms of punches thrown and connected. I had a huge black eye. We never fought again and became quite friendly over time and a spin off was that other kids thought twice about taking me on.

Of course some kids are not in a position to fight back that's when others should stand up for them.
 
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forestwalker

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Unfortunately bullying is not quite as simple as it appears from some posts here. Certainly, the most visible aspects are those of physical abuse (some early researchers had the impression that girls did not do bullying...), but there are many others. If someone pushes and shoves you, that is visible, and (possibly) hitting back will be a possible response (but it breeds a certain kind of environment, most certainly it does).

But what about the kid that no one will sit next to in the cafeteria, who ever so often finds that someone has glued the lock to his locker shut or had water poured into it? Whom everyone is making up stories about? Or the adult co-worker who never gets invited into any conversations? Or systematically gets the worst jobs, the most pointless complaints, the office next to the air-con, is not invited to come to the after work pub crawl, etc? The one, who if he or she makes a mistaske, it will never be forgotten, and retold in ever improved detail for ever? The one no one will help unless forced, and then will be made to feel guilty about it (when others might have been helped gladly)? Is punching someone out the proper response in that case too?

What happens is that in kindergarten and the lower grades kids, in particular boys, will push, shove and punch each other. The girls (they are ahead of us boys already then...), and older kids, will tend to much more subtle ostracizing behaviours, har are much harder to detect, and much harder to prevent. By adulthood, in most environments, the physical bullying is almost gone, but the non-physical stuff has replaced it.
 

rickyamos

Settler
Feb 6, 2010
622
0
Peterborough
I think that everyone has a right to stand up for themselves. Common law and all that, why should you take the abuse. To much left wing guff going about, stating you should report a bully, when all you need is to be assertive. I think that sometimes discussion is far to over rated, when you can just reach back and apply yourself. Well done for your daughter for sticking up for herself. As an old saying goes. “I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6” So if someone starts then I don’t mind obliging them. Minimum force etc. Anyway just my thoughts, no offence intended to any reader who does not agree.:nutkick:
 
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Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
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www.bushcraftuk.com
I find it a hard balance with my kids, their childhood is completely different to mine and I find it hard to enforce the rules of school v decking the bullys, we've come to the position that they can't actively strike someone (pre-emptive) but if someone has committed themselves to hitting them they can defend themselves, this has been generally effective. I must say though that they're at a rural primary school and a small town secondary school so there's not a lot of bullying anyway (it's generally from just a few kids)

I should also say that the kids have turned a few of the bullies into friends, it's taken work and patience and putting up with some kicks. We know the background of some of the bullies and they're horrible and we asked the kids to be patient wtih them, not fight back, show them a different way and for the most part it worked. I doubt it would ahve worked at my school in Reading though back in the late 70's early 80's That was a take 'em down hard to survive place.

We've called the headmaster a few times and told him to sort issues or we'd tell Rowan (our oldest girl) to deck the boy and girl bullying her, he did sort it :D It's a good school and we do try to support it.

My point though is the balance your girl BOD seems to that just right for her environment goodjob
 

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