Arguments for and against open fires in the northern European Arctic forests...

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
I dont think anyone is arguing with that viewpoint Mike its a discussion of the efficiency of fire compared with cold camping or hot tenting in the boreal forest but parallels exist in this country too. For me a hot tent is far more efficient. Most meets i go to in this country i find a big fire with lots of people crowded round getting no useful heat. When i was in Estonia the fire was great for cooking and water processing but beyond that i went back to my tent to stay warm or moved around until i was warm again.

I think fire is a wonderful thing to have, it makes us feel warm inside and gives a big morale boost but i dont think its a very efficient at heating you outdoors. The majority of third world countries that rely on fire for warmth and cooking use them indoors. That has to tell a story.

I'm not sure when I do what I do efficiency is at the forefront of my mind, I'm just enjoying myself. A nice small fire adds to the mood, gives you a focal point and boosts morale. I don't think you can measure the efficiency of that. It's not about survival, it's about living.
 
Feb 15, 2011
3,860
2
Elsewhere
Can't really comment on the pros & cons of open fires in European Boreal forests as I've never frequented one but I imagine they're prehaps more neccessary than in a UK situation.
I have to admit I'm in two minds about fires. Some folk on this forum & elsewhere judging by the number of fire scars one sees, consider a fire as essential or even the basis of bushcraft & camping, they will even put forward eronious reasons such as water purifacation, heat or cooking when they're sitting 200 yards from their car in a Sussex woodland, to me it's just playing or pretending, nothing wrong with that but they can't argue that a fire is essential....... I'm also a little perplexed by the fascination some people have with fires. Could be an age thing though.
Also when we enter or rather leave an enviroment, the bushcrafting code dictates we should leave no trace, well it's worth mentioning that the sticks & various pieces of wood laying around are not there waiting to be used as fuel but are ecological niches, full of insects, fungi & other micro-organisms which contribute to the ecosystem.......so though we may leave no fire scars our impact, albeit invisible & local, has been immense & not even neccessary.
 
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ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
I'm not sure when I do what I do efficiency is at the forefront of my mind, I'm just enjoying myself. A nice small fire adds to the mood, gives you a focal point and boosts morale. I don't think you can measure the efficiency of that. It's not about survival, it's about living.

I accept that completely, there is no doubt fire feels good but at -30 you wont be feeling warm all over sat round the morale boosting fire and that could put you in a survival situation. Jokkmock earlier this year saw one of the guys needing to go back to the cabin as he couldnt maintain his core temp. Sat in a hot tent you still get all the benefits with proper warmth too.
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
I accept that completely, there is no doubt fire feels good but at -30 you wont be feeling warm all over sat round the morale boosting fire and that could put you in a survival situation. Jokkmock earlier this year saw one of the guys needing to go back to the cabin as he couldnt maintain his core temp. Sat in a hot tent you still get all the benefits with proper warmth too.

yes, if you've got a hot tent handy I think it's obviously the better option if keeping warm is the ultimate goal.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
27
70
south wales
We had open fire in the Scouts back in the early 60's but cooked on stoves too. I was a climber and very keen four season hill walker for the next twenty years and never had a fire, thought never crossed my mind, tent and clothing kept me warm. It was only in the 80's when I went out with some 'back to basics' types that I next experienced a fire for cooking on. Perhaps its these personal experiences that forged my views on open fires, they are a bonus not a requirement. I like 'hot tent' camping, have a wood burner (use smokeless fuel in it though) but would be quite happy without it, I'd 'camp' in my tent more.

A few years ago I 'found' Glyn Y Mul Farm and camped there as did many others from this forum, great site and loads of wood...stripped within a year, lucky to find a twig for a Honey stove now. One meet there I counted five different fires on the go at the same time. Don't get me wrong, I'm as guilty as the rest and burnt too much wood but my last trip there and seeing the place stripped of dead wood put me off fires and in fact made me feel guilty. There is plenty of dead wood at our 'permission' but we're inclined to pretty much leave it there, 20kg of smokeless fuel easily does a long weekend.

I don't run a big van or 4X4 so don't sweat over my carbon footprint, its a lot smaller than many others.
 
Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
@rik_uk3

well if thats the case with stripping firewood from the forests there are plenty of farms and forests round there that will probably accomodate the tent and fire, just not the catholes! you just have to be civil .
 

Wayland

Hárbarðr
Snip>Also when we enter or rather leave an enviroment, the bushcrafting code dictates we should leave no trace, well it's worth mentioning that the sticks & various pieces of wood laying around are not there waiting to be used as fuel but are ecological niches, full of insects, fungi & other micro-organisms which contribute to the ecosystem.......so though we may leave no fire scars our impact, albeit invisible & local, has been immense & not even neccessary.

I always thought they was more like "guidelines than an actual code...
piratewhistle.gif


But spot on just the same. Dead wood is an essential habitat and one of the fastest disappearing in this country.

At meet ups I more often turn up with a barrel full of recycled "Firelogs" than forage for wood.
 

Gray

Full Member
Sep 18, 2008
2,091
10
Scouser living in Salford South UK
I always thought they was more like "guidelines than an actual code...
piratewhistle.gif


But spot on just the same. Dead wood is an essential habitat and one of the fastest disappearing in this country.

At meet ups I more often turn up with a barrel full of recycled "Firelogs" than forage for wood.
If i'm by myself or theres just a couple of us i tend to do the same
 
I always thought they was more like "guidelines than an actual code...
piratewhistle.gif


But spot on just the same. Dead wood is an essential habitat and one of the fastest disappearing in this country.

At meet ups I more often turn up with a barrel full of recycled "Firelogs" than forage for wood.

I am always on the look out for folk havin tree work done and transport any unwanted wood to my permission.
Thus not stripping out the stuff already there for wee beasties.
If I have a social gathering I usually ask folk to bring some firewood too.
As for usefulness of fires in Arctic conditions I dont speak from personal experience but I can see how it may not provide as much warmth as its expected to.
For emergency situations like going through ice and needing to warm up I can see its merits.
I know with my experience of camping in snow here whilst I didn't need the fire to stay warm psychological it was a plus to have one
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
27
70
south wales
@rik_uk3

well if thats the case with stripping firewood from the forests there are plenty of farms and forests round there that will probably accomodate the tent and fire, just not the catholes! you just have to be civil .

We can do pretty much what we want on the land, the owner is a nice fella. May even put up a poly tunnel next year but thats for then not now :) Not burning much if any wood is our choice and not his dictate.
 

Swallow

Native
May 27, 2011
1,552
4
London
Regards the OP, that's a really interesting (and for me enlightening) observation. Thinking about it the fire in those areas would orginally have been used in those areas for cooking.


As regards the UK I'm with bushwacker bob on this...

If I carried a tent and stove I would consider it 'camping' and not bushcrafting.

At the same time can't argue with this

The original post sums up my feelings too but I'd say that extends not just to the Arctic but to the UK where far too many fires are lit, just no need for so many IMHO.

or this

But spot on just the same. Dead wood is an essential habitat and one of the fastest disappearing in this country.
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
Uncle ray seems happy to carry a tent and stove when in the boreal forest. When all said and done its all camping. Bushcraft is a skill set and it matters not what you sleep on in or under, what you carry or how you choose to warm yourself. People seem to get hung up on the authenticity of what they enjoy when out. For me its just getting out and being comfortable no matter what gear i choose.
 

bushwacker bob

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 22, 2003
3,824
17
STRANGEUS PLACEUS
Going back to the OP, the problem doesn't seem to be having a fire,more the lack of clearing up.
All the 'bushcrafters' I know will happily leave no trace of a fire at all. Fire scars are left by idiots.
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
I think the OP was questioning the validity of fire as an effective means of heating. For me the cleaning up after yourself goes without saying. I wouldnt want to share a camp with anyone who wasnt prepared to leave it as found or better.
 

Stringmaker

Native
Sep 6, 2010
1,891
1
UK
I would agree with the OP in his initial comments.

In that specific set of circumstances then as he says, there are better ways of regulating temperature without expending any energy to do it.

Even so, the psychological effect of sitting and staring at a small fire can't be overestimated; even if that is the sole reason for making it.
 
I work as a wilderness safari guide here in Finnish Lapland, often going on trips in well below -30c and we always run fires. In fact here in Finland that is considered the ecological thing to do as it is a renewable energy source with the woods here(this does not apply however to the northernmost arctic tundra areas where trees take decades to grow!) in the southern Lapland area(we are based in Rovaniemi, Kittila, Saariselka and other places in between those mentioned). If an open fire is not enough the fire just may not be big enough...i have run fires in the open that were hot enough to strip down to just the long johns while sitting next to it in minus 34 degrees celsius. Mind you we always run groups, tho a group can be anything from 1 client + 1 guide to 1000+ clients and well over a 100 guides plus auxiliary staff(sizes and guide to clients ratios differ depending on the groups and activities). We run them during the entire season, from December until the beginning of April, offering anything from short few hour trips to multi day trips. And we do all cooking and heating by wood fire, we carry it with us. Forage is less of what we do, but we do on some longer trips(it is legal to forage fallen wood on any land, but illegal to fell wood on land you do not have specific permission to do so, and besides the fresh cut wood is useless as a fuel) and sometimes we can do logistics ahead of time and have wood already on site before the groups get there.

If you are dressed well enough it can feel good enough for warmth but sitting around is detrimental to your circulation and thus core warmth, gathering wood or doing some activities to get everything flowing is beneficial. Just layer clothes so that you can start stripping layers as needed during the activities.
The psychological effect of a fire(even one not big enough to heat you up) is underrated, it makes as much of a psychological impact as getting the warm sun on your face during a snowy early spring day and can make you stop believing you are freezing your bottom off, which often is the biggest problem since not everyone has the mindset needed to survive in such cold climates.
And as a side effect fire will repel predators here in the arctic, such as wolves, lynx and wolverines(the bears are the only ones sensible enough to sleep the winter off).
If on long trips setting up a traditional Finnish kota(a teepee type tent) with a fire running in the center works nice and many smaller groups/locals use the open Finnish laavu even during the coldest of days by running a fire right in front of the opening of the laavu to heat it up(not doable in a tent unless it is made from fire retarded materials and even then being very careful). We also use wooden grill huts/kotas that have a fireplace in the centre and seating/sleeping benches around the circle and heat it with wood. That makes for a very warm and cozy night even on the most brutally cold nights.

So far the cold record here is -52 celsius(december 1999), i am hoping to see that fall one day(soon!)

And as i often like to tell people: Surviving harsh environments is 80 percent mental. Unless you are an idiot. Then it is 100 percent fatal.
 

Wayland

Hárbarðr
Good post.

There is certainly a psychological benefit to a fire and you are right, that should not be under estimated.

But I do think scale comes into it.

For a group an open fire makes good sense. Multiple users and contributors plus the camaraderie of a fire circle.

For myself on my own it's a lot of energy to expend with relatively little return. I'm well insulated from the cold so a warm meal is all I need.
 

Husky

Nomad
Oct 22, 2008
335
0
Sweden, Småland
I may just be repeating what has already been said but no, if we have the right clothing and equipment we can generally do for a long period of time using hot food and body heat to stay warm and dry even during arctic winter and fuel of the weight of an ax will run a stove for a week.
In "the olden days" however, when they did not have this clothing and equipment, they used an ax and a fire to do everything. Fires worked fine then and the fact that we do not see the point of a fire is probably a sign that we are doing it wrong. There is a book in Swedish which is a collection of the old Saami knowledge of fire and firewood and their knowledge was vast! The whole point for me is to relearn how to use a fire so that you do not need all the modern camping equipment. Only then am I in a position to choose how I want to do it. That and, as Stu pointed out in the "Steampunk Boone" thread - we like it because it makes us feel good and what more reason do we need?
As Wayland pointed out, to minimise the negative effects a hobo stove or similar will give you flames and woodsmoke with a minimum of impact. A good compromise.
 

almac

Forager
Oct 13, 2010
157
0
Okanagan, BC CANADA
wow. if the banned open fires permanently in Canada, i'd sell all my equipment, and get out of bushcraft.
bushcraft without fire, is like cereal without milk.
 

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