Are there any carpenters here...

[Baggy]

Hi all

I am after carpentry advice please.

I am planning to build some stuff, Bin store, log store, picnic table, garden bench and some raised beds for veg.

Having been to my local my timber merchant I realise that I need some wood knowledge.

I want to build the items to last and look good as sensible money, not cheap but good value for the job.

For instance I have seen commercial log stores being sold made of Cedar frames and planking and fir roof. Others suggest tanalised scandanavian redwoods.

I have seen picnic tables being sold which are made of douglas fir or FSC Swedish Redwood.

Could some kind, patient, person talk/type me through the wood choices please.

A source of good plans would also be useful.

Ta muchly
Mark

 

[Bucephalas]

If you need to know about stock wood for knives etc then there would be plenty of replies coming your way.
Worth asking the question HERE though.

 

[crosslandkelly]

All of the things you want to build, can be made with decking materials. Strong, long lasting and relatively cheap. Hope this helps.

 

[marcelxl]

I'm a chippy......

From what you have said I would opt for pressure treated Tanalised, that lasts as well as anything. I think also you are over-thinking it in terms of what to go for

Around here we have suppliers, usually "fencing" suppliers which do nothing but timber, treated for external use for decking, fencing, sheds & whatever and I never really give too much thought about what it actually is. That said, wood being wood does mean at some point you will have to do some preservation of some kind.

I do not know of the implications of using tanalised wood for veg beds but I have done it for customers in the past.

The Canadians use Cedar a lot, most notably for shingles on roofs

Hope this helps

 

[swright81076]

Go for tanalised timber, not dipped. Your local wood yard or reclamation yard should have stuff for you too.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[bushwacker bob]

Timber cut from deciduous trees is hardwood, evergreens are softwoods, someone will also mention the exeptions.
Most timber sold in the uk is softwood of which there are 2 basic types.
Redwood = pine
Whitewood = spruce species
probably 80% of softwoods in merchants stocks are are whitewood and these are further graded into 6 seperate grades.
The further North the timber come from, the slower growing it is and therfore the quality of the timber improves as tighter growth rings= denser wood.
Of the stuff in merchants yards, most of that will be scandinavian 6ths grade. This will have knots in the wood which are weaknesses
The higher the grade(lower number) the fewer knots and shakes it will have in it.
The strongest and most expensive softwoods are timbers like clear Douglas Fir(psudotsuga menzii) which has lovely straight growth medium tight growthrings and no knots for very long sections.
Softwoods rot and can be preserved by vacuum treating with a copper based preservatives such as Tanalith and are considered safe from rot if kept dry( built into a house) for 30 years
Other vacuum based treatments are available.
Timber such as Cedar and larch have their own built in preservatives and biodegrade at a slower rate than most timber. Cedar shingles smell amazing and last on a roof around 25 years and would be a good choice for a small roof and they are sold in 'bundles' of approx 1m2 and look good as well as being easy to install and lightweight.
As Marcelxl said tanalised timber will last as well as anything in the garden but run polythene around the inside if you are making raised beds, just in case.

 

[grey-array]

Hey Mark,

Not the thoroughly seasoned expert yet, but perhaps I can help you get up to speed,
There are many possible choices, Western red Cedar is often chosen for outside purposes or for roofing shingles seeing the fact it is naturally rich in oils and therefor protects it self from the environment, so it is a really low maintenance option, from my sources if you got standard cedar shingles you could keep them shingles up there for about 40 years without having to look up twice, recommended though it to have a roof slope of 45 degrees or steeper.

To be honest about the Scandinavian redwoods, I dont know much so I am not gonna bother you with my guesses, yet only tell you that Douglas fir etc are pine/spruce/fir species and thus through the inner structure of the wood is called softwood, a softwood has sapvessels, or veins that run through the entire length of the tree and a "softwood"has nothing to do with the wood being actually soft.
I can give you a great article to read about the inner specifications of wood and cell structure.
To help you to understand wood better

Other then the cell structure a pine/spruce/fir possesses pitch or resin in its veins which help it coop against insects, freezing, water and fungi

personally, I would go with English oak, or White Oak I can imagine that it is widely available in essex and it lasts for ages, it turns a slightly grayish color and is a really robust building material that has been used for centuries. because of a preserving substance the wood possesses, called Tannin,
which you ,guessed it ^^, is used in the leather tanning process ( in the old days mostly), but it preserves the wood and protects it from it environment.
there are Oak building in britain that have been dated over 400 years old and still redeemed to be safe to live in.

my question is do you already have the design, if yes can we see it it helps greatly in the decision and if not, then you might wanna alter your design idea to the wood you are using perhaps if you wanted I could draw something up for you, if you gave me your ideas ( Its a thing I like to do and frankly I'm an Industrial-Design-engineer to be so it wont be rubbish ^^)

Yours sincerely Ruud

 

[Biker]

Tanalised all the way. It lasts a long time you can get it in all sorts of sizes. (thickness/width etc) This is decking wood as mentioned above

It'd be a good idea seal the ends of the wood when you cut it with a preservative of some type. You can even tosh another preservative over the top of the whole finished scructure if you want to go belt and braces, such a Cuprinol with a wood stain in it. Personally I wouldn't go with varnish, it never looks good after a few years, no matter what it says on the can.

Try to use screws instead of nails, something like a zinc coated screws over bare mild steel. Brass is a bit OTT really. If you have to use nails go with galvanised and something with a flat head over a "lost head" nail.

Tried to keep it succinct. But it ain't rocket science.

As for building techinque if you're building a square structure such as a cabin be sure to put some diagonal braces in the framework, it'll strengthen it up enormously. Plenty of tutorials on youtube about making stuff like you've listed. Have fun.

 

[Perrari]

As Biker says go for Tanalised. I have fencing that is almost 20 years old and has aged nicely, but has no rotten bits yet. I have also made a woodstore a picnic bench & another couple of benches & border for the veg patch from it. I like it because it is low maintenance (or even no maintenance). Once you start painting un-tanalised with wood preservers etc it does not last, and you will have to re treat them every so often.

 

[Teepee]

+1 on what Biker says.

Tanalised timber and also treated with a spirit based preservative(like sadolins wood preserver or straight sadolins classic), especially on the end grains.

Water ingress is the killer for timber. If you want it to last, spend the time pretreating and sealing the parts where water will get into the timber. End grains, checks/shakes and fixings are the biggest problem areas.

Western red cedar and oak are the alternatives-they will last. I've just redecorated a 40 year old red cedar greenhouse-its never had any coating on it and only the top roof bar had any decay.
I regularly paint well over 100 year old oak window sills, they don't decay apart from the very corners where water pools.
I regularly have to replace pine/ spruce timber components that are over 5 years old and have been painted (badly) from new.

 

[grey-array]

I personally have a grudge against Tanalised, but honest is honest it is very durable, only pittiable thing is that it is such chemically polutting process to do, I guess in that way I'm a bit of a nature boy, but if you have no problem with Tanalised, you should go for it if not, you should considder some of your Local hardwoods, as I said Oak is great and untreated lasts for ages, to show you what I had in mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf04wLSmnrQ

And if I would be building a shed, This would be the way I would want to do it, but that is a bit of a personal affectation too ^^
plus it is a bit more planning and time consuming to do it this way, yet what you get in the end is sheer quality
yours sincerely Ruud
ps wooden frame building is the best, no steel, no nails or adhesives, just plain wood

 

[bushwacker bob]

I personally have a grudge against Tanalised, but honest is honest it is very durable, only pittiable thing is that it is such chemically polutting process to do, I guess in that way I'm a bit of a nature boy, but if you have no problem with Tanalised, you should go for it if not, you should considder some of your Local hardwoods, as I said Oak is great and untreated lasts for ages,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf04wLSmnrQ
And if I would be building a shed, I would know how I want to do it, but that is a bit of a personal affectation too ^^
yours sincerely Ruud
ps wooden frame building is the best, no steel, no nails or adhesives, just plain wood

We've used our oak up Ruud. We used the really good stuff to make ships to fight Napoleon, then we used what decent stuff was left to fight a few wars since, English Oak is in short supply and commands a premium price. It is also very hard to source in reasonably quality or quantity anymore. When I last worked in the timber industry we were working our way through French Oak Stocks.

 

[Baggy]

Thanks all, a ton of info there, no matter what I ask on the web I get the best advice here even for
non bushy stuff

The chippy/DIY forums not so good.

 

[grip]

Timber cut from deciduous trees is hardwood, evergreens are softwoods, someone will also mention the exeptions.
Most timber sold in the uk is softwood of which there are 2 basic types.
Redwood = pine
Whitewood = spruce species
probably 80% of softwoods in merchants stocks are are whitewood and these are further graded into 6 seperate grades.
The further North the timber come from, the slower growing it is and therfore the quality of the timber improves as tighter growth rings= denser wood.
Of the stuff in merchants yards, most of that will be scandinavian 6ths grade. This will have knots in the wood which are weaknesses
The higher the grade(lower number) the fewer knots and shakes it will have in it.
The strongest and most expensive softwoods are timbers like clear Douglas Fir(psudotsuga menzii) which has lovely straight growth medium tight growthrings and no knots for very long sections.
Softwoods rot and can be preserved by vacuum treating with a copper based preservatives such as Tanalith and are considered safe from rot if kept dry( built into a house) for 30 years
Other vacuum based treatments are available.
Timber such as Cedar and larch have their own built in preservatives and biodegrade at a slower rate than most timber. Cedar shingles smell amazing and last on a roof around 25 years and would be a good choice for a small roof and they are sold in 'bundles' of approx 1m2 and look good as well as being easy to install and lightweight.
As Marcelxl said tanalised timber will last as well as anything in the garden but run polythene around the inside if you are making raised beds, just in case.

What a useful post. Thanks alot.

 

[Laurentius]

I am absolutely the last person to ask, there is a reason why I never got to do woodwork at school.

Notwithstanding I built a camper conversion into the back of my landrover, with no measurements, just rule of thumb, and I am presently building a shed the same way. If it feels wonky I put in a bit of cross bracing, just keep going till it feels right, but perpendicular it is not, I am not one for using a try square. My basic rule of shed building is, keep all the timber well off the ground, and build in such a way that if anything rots (and expect it to eventually) you can simply replace it.

Essentially I have built it out of scavenged timber (doors, planks, corrugated iron, that sort of thing, and then put in the framework out of pressure treated timber to hold the roof on (which is a work in progress)

I like breaking all the rules, because I no longer have my dad standing over me, telling me how I should do it

 

[Biker]

I like breaking all the rules, because I no longer have my dad standing over me, telling me how I should do it

You won't be first, nor the last. Just lucky my Dad wasn't like that at all but encouraged a bit of off the wall thinking. But I've known some fathers that were so overbearing, if their son sneezed they probably got slagged off for not doing it correctly.

I for one would love to see some of yur creations, especially the landover camperback. I was just watching a video on youtube about using pallets. If you're making stuff on a budget and like a bit of rustic, pallets are a good source of cheap or even free wood. It's also been treated as well. My brother built his allotment shed out of pallets and a good part of his garden workshop/shed too.

Anyway here's the vid, enjoy.

[video=youtube;pFGaW2FdKB4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFGaW2FdKB4&feature=re lated[/video]

 

[grey-array]

We've used our oak up Ruud. We used the really good stuff to make ships to fight Napoleon, then we used what decent stuff was left to fight a few wars since, English Oak is in short supply and commands a premium price. It is also very hard to source in reasonably quality or quantity anymore. When I last worked in the timber industry we were working our way through French Oak Stocks.

Yeah I heard about that, in the Northern regions of France right?
and wasnt there still a certain reserved forest that was planted in the 1820's that once was reserved for building boats as it was the golden age? and which is currently used by Green Oak frame building carpenters? I really like learning where the material really comes from. but good thing you brought it up!!
Yours sincerely Ruud

 

[Andy T]

I don't know much about wood but here's a bench i made in the last fortnight out of old scaffolding boards and some reclaimed timber. A few rough mortice and tenon joints, some hidden screws and some glue. I stained it with shoe polish and gave it a few coats of matt varnish. With regular treating i think it should last for a few years.



About £40 and a few hours work.

 

[Biker]

About £40 and a few hours work.

And job satisafaction that a bought off the shelf item could NEVER give you. It looks VERY good Andy, very nice work.

 

[Andy T]

Thanks biker.