Alternatives to the traditional bow?

[rich59]

I was reading some of the bow making threads and the question came -- why is the bow a good way of firing a projectile? Is it the most efficient, the most effective? How many other ways are there?

If one were to criticise the design of a bow then:-
They seem to take a lot of work to make.
They wear out with use.
They can break catastrophically.
A lot of tension in the string is wasted as it is not in the line of movement of the arrow.
The driving force is at the back end of a long object - the arrow. This might lead to significant errors in the direction of fire leading to missing the target.

I thought about the blow gun. Is it banned because it actually better than the bow?

Could one base a projectile launcher on a tube but using string and wood to impart the force?

I thought about designing from scratch something to launch a projectile - using the energy stored in bending wood. I wondered if the concept of a diabolo might in theory be more efficient.

 

[Snufkin]

Well a bow really isn't a great deal of work, you can cut down a sapling and string it and you have a bow. Getting the arrows "spined" to match the bow is the secret to getting them to shoot straight.
A blowpipe can only launch a small, lightweight projectile as it is limited in propulsion to one lungful of air. They can travel at great speeds and are good for small game but you would need a poison tipped one for larger animals, though I have read that cherokee indians used them to kill deer by shooting them in the eye. A bow can store a great deal more energy and throw a heavier projectile. The extreme example of this is thhe medieval warbow.
For simplicity and power the atlatl or spearthrower is hard to beat but it is alot more difficult to master snd it requires alot of movement to launch a dart ehich might alert game to your location.

 

[torjusg]

The bow is actually highly efficient.

They don't neccesarily wear out with use (only if poorly made) and I have never had a catastrophic break of my bow.

Good ones are a lot of work to make, but as Snufkin says, serviceable ones can be made quickly.

The blowgun has one advantages over the bow that I can think of. It is easy to aim with. The reason why it is banned in the UK is probably that you can easily shoot silently from concealment and disguise it as a walking staff. Ergo, a good assassin's weapon.

 

[stovie]

....Is it the most efficient, the most effective? How many other ways are there?

If one were to criticise the design of a bow then:-
They seem to take a lot of work to make.
They wear out with use.
They can break catastrophically.
A lot of tension in the string is wasted as it is not in the line of movement of the arrow.
The driving force is at the back end of a long object - the arrow. This might lead to significant errors in the direction of fire leading to missing the target......

Like all tools, the more time and effort invested the greater the reward. You only need to look at the craftsmen creating knives on here and BB. at the end of the day they all do the same job, cut, so you could place the same argument at their feet.

Wear and tear is relative to the design criteria of a specified bow. Stretch the material's potential to the limit and you may have a finely tuned tool that will last only a season, but build within its limits and its lifespan increases.

As for breaking catastrophically.... what can I say. It relates to the above statement generally, and when some occult flaw makes itself known. I have now made a dozen bows of one form or another, and the latest (which I was pushing to the woods limits) is the first have had explode.

The lower the brace height the more of the bows potential energy is transferred to the arrow. An optimum brace height is a compromise between efficiency and accuracy (working around the archers paradox).

As Snufkin said above, a correctly "spined" arrow will reduce the element of innacurracy...but no where near as much as a well trained archer

On the whole I think the bow and arrow has remained such a staple of hunter societies because of its overall efficiency.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Stuart and I had a good chat about bows and blow guns. Stuart has watched the Penan of Borneo make a blow pipe in the jungle and the amount of work needed is mind blowing. It amounted to something like a solid month of day in, day out, labour. They started with a tree several times the diameter that they wanted the pipe to be and then worked it down. However it was the hole down the middle that was the real work. Think about drilling a 8mm diameter hole down the centre of a 6 foot plus log...all by hand. Add to that the fact that the log is of hard tropical wood and you can imagine what a job it is.

Bows by comparison are dead easy to make. In my opinion they are the easiest part of the whole archery kit. For a bow to work you need straight, reasonably well matched arrows, very strong cordage, and ballanced, symetrical points.

Admittedly, a really nice bow is a bit more work, but not too much. As for wearing out, not if they are well made and their moisture content kept constant (preferably fairly dry).

The efficiency arguments are pretty much moot also. All the alternatives for hurling a projectile either propel from the back, or have other shortcomings that equal or outweigh those of the bow system.

Back on the conversation I had with Stuart. We were wondering why it was that the Penan had never even encountered a bow (Stuart had a lot of fun trying to comunicate the concept to them) while both bow and blow gun are used in the jungles of South America. The best hypothesis we could come up with for the popularity of blowguns in jungle is that while they are a lot of work to make, the darts are very simple. With a bow it is the other way around, a significant amount of work goes into the arrows also. In jungle it is all too easy to lose projectiles, better they be cheap to replace.

There is probably some environmental driver for why one group if South American Indians used blowpipes and another used bows, but we didn't go into that amount of detail. Anyone esle got any ideas?

 

[Doc]

This is a very interesting thread. Blowpipes are not legal in the UK but I see no reason why we should not have an academic discussion about their use by hunter-gatherers in South America etc.

Is a blowpipe dart much use for hunting without poison? I would not have thought the kinetic energy of the dart was very much. An air rifle pellet may develop 12 foot pounds, an arrow from a recurve hunting bow around 40 foot pounds (native American bows probably rather less), and a .22 rimfire bullet around 100.

 

[torjusg]

On small game it is not really neccesary with poison. At least if you have a powerful enough blowgun to use heavy darts. I don't have a blowgun, but I want to make one. I know you can make good ones from elder.

 

[C_Claycomb]

The Penan pretty much poisoned all their darts. The only ones that I saw that were not poisoned were for practice. They had different types for different game ranging from smallish birds all the way to boar. The darts for boar had micro broadheads fitted, in addition to the poison (extracted from a forest tree). From a practical point, if you have an ample supply of materials to make the poison, why not use it on all the darts. Why limit yourself to only taking head shots, say, on birds high in the canopy when you could use poison and collect lunch with a body shot?

 

[moduser]

Rich59,

Other alternatives that you may consider are;

Sling shot
Catapault
Atlatl Atlatl

All are capable of being accurate & fast


david

 

[torjusg]

And not to mentioned slings. It requires an enormous investment of practising time to become good though.

 

[Stuart]

the most efficient hunting tool from the perspective of effort invested in construction Vs usefulness for the procurement of large game would be (IMO) the atlatl.

I have successfully made an accurate and powerful Atlatl in a hazel wood in less than an hour, that would be easily capable of bringing down a deer and I have almost zero woodworking skill, it also takes very little time to become proficient in its use.

the Blowpipe with poison darts is a whole different kettle of fish.

the Penan blowpipe is for me the pinnacle of bushcraft skill, comparable to a birchbark canoe, more than a tool it is a working piece of art.

The sheer skill required for the construction of a Penan blowpipe by hand is mind boggling and once constructed it is without question the ultimate hunting tool, totally silent, extremely accurate even in unpractised hands, of strong enough construction to be used as a spear for killing boar and devastatingly lethal.

if you have a particular interest in examine a Penan blowpipe and darts rich, you are welcome to visit my place. the bore is 8mm diameter perfectly straight for a distance of 2 meters and mirror polished even having personally witnessed there construction I am at a loss to explain just how they achieve such precision.

A penan man out hunting with his 'keleput' (blowpipe)

Detail of the quiver darts and spear of the blowpipe (the squirrel was shot out of the trees whilst on the move!) the poison will drop a 300lbs boar in around 5 minutes, smaller animals such as monkeys etc are killed almost instantly

 

[Doc]

Fascinating.

How do they drill such a precise hole?
Over what sort of range is it useable?
What poison do they use? Curare?
Are the darts made of wood?

As for the atlatl, that sounds like an interesting meet project. I must try and find out more about it.

I vaguely remember seeing areview of a book on 'man powered weapons' that covered crossbows and air rifles too.

I sometimes wonder if 'primitive technology' is an appropriate name for such sophistication.

 

[torjusg]

And another question: How can you eat the animal when there is poison in it's veins?

 

[C_Claycomb]

The standard answer to eating a poison darted animal is that the poisons are destroyed by cooking.

 

[jojo]

just a quick one before I have to out again. In the book Last of the Coureurs de Bois,mentioned in another thread, there is a paragraph on making a blow gun and using it to hunt. I'll scan the drawings when I have a bit more time. Joel

 

[rich59]

Cool, loads of things to follow through here.

The bow. I am beginning to appreciate it from some of your comments.

The blow gun. What is the law? Pea shooters are clearly allowed, but where is the line drawn?

Atlatl - this sounds a good project.

Stuart when you are in the UK where abouts in the country are you?

I have a little fascination with the bolas.

I am trying to get my head round a sort of hybrid between a blow pipe and a bow - pipe for accuracy, power by tension in cordage/ wood. Would probably take 2 people to operate it.

I guess that drilling a deep hole is a matter of hand or bow drill using a consistent sized drill bit a little wider than the shaft of the drill?

 

[Snufkin]

If I recall the cherokee used rivercane, similar to bamboo for their blowpipes. They wood split the cane, carve out the nodes and smooth the bore and then tie it back together.

 

[jojo]

From American Indian Archery, Reg Laubin: The Cherokees prefer sourwood for the darts but also used white oak splints, about 1/8 inch diameter about a foot long, their blowgun averaged 8 feet. Fletched with thistle down which is laid on and tied with thread beginning at thebutt and spiralling down the shaft for 3 to 6 inches. after the down is wrapped in place are held against a hot stove and burnt flat.
The Cherokees, before having metal tools, are said to have split a long piece of cane in order to remove the solid sections at the joints, glued the two pieces back together and wrapped them a t intervals with sinew. In more recent times they used iron stove pokers which were the right size for the bore of the blowgun, the poker was attached to a cord, the front of it heated red hot and then dropped through the cane.

from Last of the Coureurs de Bois

From Last of the Coureurs de Bois

 

[James_m246]

I quite fancy one of those blowguns, surely if you only use it on private land its not illegal?
Also the atlatl looks like good fun, i've never even heard of it before.

 

[Klenchblaize]

"Alternatives to the traditional bow?"

= It's called a rifle!

Cheers