Air pistols: a feasible hunting tool?

[Timinwales]

How do they upgrade to FAC? Is it just like a bigger air resovoir, thus more air pressure or do they change the valve to let more air propell the pellet? And do the cops still hassle you now n then, knocking on your door to see if your guns are locked up?

As best as I understand it a FAC air gun falls under all the same restrictions as a rifle proper does, complete with FA officer visits, gun cabinets et al. I've never had a FAC rated air gun though this is just my understanding and what I have been led to believe.

Now as to upgrading to FAC depends on the model in question, pneumatics require port adjustment more air behind pellet more power higher velocity kind of thing.
Regulated pneumatics need the reg adjusting.
There are other ways some of which I was asked to experiment with a few years ago by a chief inspector from the fire arms squad of my then local constabulary. Some of these had huge effect over the chrono for very little effort. This experimentation was carried out under very controlled conditions though. We also did some stuff with the Brocock TAC systems which shocked us both.
Worthy of note is that nowadays any offence related to firearms (includes airguns over the limit without liscense) is 5yrs inside.
Tim

 

[sharp88]

Yeah well we'v got the complete brainless :tapedshut-wad who did the Hungreford massacre to thank for all the tight firearms law and such.

 

[rapidboy]

the law bans handguns on barrel length an overall length as you say .......But airguns are Oks due to an exclusion which you have missed out



please quote the sections correctly

so a FAC airpistol is as valid as a muzzle loading black powder pistol or a flare pistol (though the 12ga conversion sleeves are illegal)
antuqie are Section 7

this is something ive had discussions with with several police FAC deps gun dealers etc etc over many years
Local police FAC units are very variable on their knowlege and application of the letter of the act depending on the counties experince an the Chief inspectors Views

ATB

Duncan

I find this very interesting, i spoke to a few air pistol manufacturers is September about having a FAC rated pistol made as i have a space for one on my FAC and all said it was not legal to manufacture in the UK even for export.
I wonder is it because they are not Section 5 manufacturers / dealers ?

 

[Buckshot]

so a FAC airpistol is as valid as a muzzle loading black powder pistol or a flare pistol (though the 12ga conversion sleeves are illegal)
antuqie are Section 7

Ignoring the cheap jibe Duncan

My point is once an airgun becomes FAC it's no longer an air gun in the eyes of the law, it becomes a full FAC gun regardless of it's method of propultion.
I think the statement you refer to is specifically aimed at non FAC air pistols (below 6ft/lb) not the sort of thing you're talking about. That's there to allow target shooting using them for instance. Regardless of how the law is written you have to take into account what was intended in the spirit of the law. That's why no-one has bothered introducing semi auto .17 rimfire into the UK. Even though technically, they're allowed under the law everyone knows the spirit intended all rifles more powerfull/ accurate than a .22 rimfire to be manually operated between each shot. No-one's bothered because they know even if they do get through on a technicallity that loop hole door will be firmly shut very quickly indeed.

Thing is Duncan, if you think you can get one, try it. Invent a sport that uses them and see if you can get one on section one. I'd be surprised if you're sucessful but let me know if you can because I'd like one as well

Mark

 

[GreenmanBushcraft]

Too hunt small game with an air gun you ideally need an air file or 12ft lbs. What a lot of people forget is that those with a firearms certificate can obtain them with MUCH more power. The Crossman ratcatcher is a pistol with a stock and that would have enough power to topple a rat or squirrel but would have to be hit clean. I own that pistol but use it more for target shooting. My Airarms Pro sport is the ideal hunting tool, but I have to say I prefer a catapult (handmade of course), although finding good (non tube or cube) elastic is a heck of a job these days.

Kris

 

[dwardo]

I used to own and run quite a few air pistols years back and the power they put out isnt enough to risk inhumane kill in my opinion.

However the Webley nemisis could take down an elephant if you threw it hard enough ! they weigh a absolute ton!

 

[GreenmanBushcraft]

I used to own and run quite a few air pistols years back and the power they put out isnt enough to risk inhumane kill in my opinion.

However the Webley nemisis could take down an elephant if you threw it hard enough ! they weigh a absolute ton!

They were good in their day but IMO they never had huge power. I have an old Gammo that could match it and that was 20 years old then. It was a nice pistol though.

Kris

 

[nicodiemus]

I've got a Hurricane, and my gun shop told me it was around 5.5 fp when he tested it. It's a 22. I mostly use it for exploding cans of "beer" (Stella. Blech!).

Perhaps we should start a forum themed on elephant hunting with the old webley pistols.

I don't think this would make us popular with conservationists, environmentalists, the african and indian governments, or our colleagues on this board, however.

 

[FGYT]

Ignoring the cheap jibe Duncan

My point is once an airgun becomes FAC it's no longer an air gun in the eyes of the law, it becomes a full FAC gun regardless of it's method of propultion.
I think the statement you refer to is specifically aimed at non FAC air pistols (below 6ft/lb) not the sort of thing you're talking about. That's there to allow target shooting using them for instance. Regardless of how the law is written you have to take into account what was intended in the spirit of the law. That's why no-one has bothered introducing semi auto .17 rimfire into the UK. Even though technically, they're allowed under the law everyone knows the spirit intended all rifles more powerfull/ accurate than a .22 rimfire to be manually operated between each shot. No-one's bothered because they know even if they do get through on a technicallity that loop hole door will be firmly shut very quickly indeed.

Thing is Duncan, if you think you can get one, try it. Invent a sport that uses them and see if you can get one on section one. I'd be surprised if you're sucessful but let me know if you can because I'd like one as well

Mark

nope the method of propulsion is excluded from the Section 5 Air weapon other wise all air Rifles that are FAC and have Barrels below the stateed 30cm would also in your interpretation be illegal They arnt because air weapons are excluded form that requirement ie a FAC Theobem Fenman isnt section 5 even with its 7" barrel

the statement Dosnt refer to sub 6ft lbs pistols theres are already removed by the fact thyy dont qualify for FAC due to lower power like sub 12 ft lb rifles


See my first Link to the airguns page

The Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 require that certain air weapons can only be held legally on a firearm certificate. It is possible to measure the velocity of pellets, discharged from an air weapon, by the use of an electronic chronograph. From these measurements the kinetic energy of the pellet at the muzzle can be calculated. Air weapons deemed specially dangerous have a muzzle energy in excess of:

In the case of an air pistol: 6 ft/lbs
In the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol: 12 ft/lbs

Such weapons are classified as Section 1 firearms and are required to be held on a firearm certificate. These weapons are subject to all the controls and regulations pertaining to Section 1 firearms, although the "ammunition" (pellets) are not.

This is the law as written the police dont always know it and dont all enforce it teh same way the yare biased depending on experiance and there Chief Constables views
Dorset, Hampshire and Wiltshire FAC units are totally differnt on their application of the laws

BUT as i said you shouldt be able to get a variation for target use as i know of no disapline that used a FAC pistol
That Leaves a Hunting Variation which would be difficult i would Guess you would be better using an air Rifle

The Crossman ratcatcher is a pistol with a stock and that would have enough power to topple a rat or squirrel but would have to be hit clean. I own that pistol but use it more for target shooting.

no the Ratcatcher is classified as a Rifle as its more than 6ft lbs and can be leagally turned up to 12 ft lbs if you get the right bits etc (its difficult to gat much more out of it )

and you cannot have a .17 rimmy semi auto Because the only exclusion in section 5 States .22 Rimfire only which .17 isnt which is also why semi auto air wepons are illegal they have no exclusion clause BUT they do in the lenght bit as i quoted below

(ab) any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges

ATB

Duncan

 

[FGYT]

oks just to check im not going mad here and law hasn changed that i know of recently
Ive rung 2 places

Falcon airguns who make pistols and high power FAC ones etc

Thay say its illegal in UK and Section 5 over 6ft lbs but are allowed to Export and are classified as Sect 5 manufactures but whernt clear if NI qualified


My local police Unit Dorset who say as i do they come under Section 1 and are excluded from the Section 5 length restrictions so you can have one if you have reason and agree with my interpretation of the Law as ive shown here
this page tallies with the Met one shown earleier saying 6ft lbs and over requiresa a Sect 1 FAC
http://www.dorset.police.uk/default.aspx?page=711
BUT also say it would be difficult to get a reason for the variation


online Copy of Fireams Guidance to the Police is avalible here
this isnt the Act but is what most police units use to interpret it and should give some continuity across teh counties

 

[Buckshot]

Looks like we're going round in circles here Duncan, I dissagree with your interpretation and still maintain that they're not allowed.
I agree different forces take different views on the legislation - sometimes very different.

I thought the law referred to rimfire only rather than stating a calibre, I must be wrong there.

I thought (IIRC) you weren't allowed to hunt with pistols anyway (maybe barrel length or something?) , if so sounds like it's a no go from the start

Mark

 

[FGYT]

yep lots of circles and as Falcon are adamant they cannot sell em there must be some truth but i cant see it in the documants ive seen or know about

I called Thames Valley i assume your Licencing force and eventually got put through to the Seinior FAC guy who thought it was banned but agreed my interpretation with of the sites ive shown here gave him some doubt he did Email me back the Home office Pamflet on Airgun Safty which Does say Air Pistols above 6ft lbs along with all air cartridge guns are Banned
Airgun Saftey Pam

ive asked if he can clarify where the actual act law is as this is the only Ref to it ive seen and as ive shown its not been changed on the met site or others who have updated with the change for the Airgun cartridge bann

atb
Duncan

 

[Buckshot]

Thanks Duncan,
That pamphlet is interesting - especially in view of what your local chaps say... as you say, different views.

So what sport can we invent then?????

Mark

 

[British Red]

Now there's no law against hunting with a black powder ML handgun.

How about bunny hunting with a Ruger Old Army? I'm really looking forward to that variation!

Although my recent variation was equally as odd - section 1 shottie and since I don't bother with section 2, I put in for 600 rounds of 12 bore. Only when chatting with my firearms dept. did it dawn on me that I had applied for 600 rounds of solid slug

He asked if 120 would be enough

Got any bear problems Mark?

Red

 

[FGYT]

Now there's no law against hunting with a black powder ML handgun.

How about bunny hunting with a Ruger Old Army? I'm really looking forward to that variation!

Although my recent variation was equally as odd - section 1 shottie and since I don't bother with section 2, I put in for 600 rounds of 12 bore. Only when chatting with my firearms dept. did it dawn on me that I had applied for 600 rounds of solid slug

He asked if 120 would be enough

Got any bear problems Mark?

Red

now thats fun oh 120 isnt a lot
i used to run a AK Assault Shotgun (theres still some about at Christchurch GC ) and had 4 x10 rns box mags
200rnds of Slug in a couple of hours = an aching Shoulder and a lot of pallets turned to match sticks and a BIG
did you ask for a Clay shooting and Vermin variation as well as some get funny about it


ATB

Duncan

 

[British Red]

Aaah the really ugly and muzzle heavy "Saiga 12" - yep - played with them.

I rather suspect though I'll end up with either a Benelli M3 or Remmy 1187. Probably the Benelli though - an elegant design when you really need to blow big holes in things at close range

Red

 

[FGYT]

thats the Kiddy Saiga 12 sounds like a games console dont it

 

[FGYT]

Warning please ignore unless your really board
oks cos its messing my head about etc ive looked into the actual FAC act as well as i can online to see where the argument a 6ft lb pistol IS a Section 5

Ref Firearms Act 1968 (c. 27) close as i can see this is an upto date amended copy
The Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) (Amendment) Rules 1993 (DAW)

Oks last chance to bail out for the friday evening

TheThe Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) (Amendment) Rules 1993 states
Pistols over 6ft lbs and air rifles over 12ft lbs as specially dangerous

Section 57 (4) of the F Act says

(4) In this Act—
“air weapon” has the meaning assigned to it by section 1(3)(b) of this Act;

which is

1(3)(b)
an air weapon (that is to say, an air rifle, air gun or air pistol [which does not fall within section 5(1) and which is] not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of this Act to be specially dangerous).

which if im reading correctly means Air weapon in the Act is a sub 6ftlb pistol or a sub 12ftlb rifle ( as some suggested below )

therefore the exemption in Section 5(1)(aba) would only be for non FAC air weapons

however the same logic should also make any FAC air Rifle illegal that has a barrel length under 30cm as well and in sure there are lots of those around

so under that lot i would say i was wrong all based on the definition of Air weapon in the Act 1968

can i go to bed now my head hurts :twak:

ATB

Duncan

 

[British Red]

Hmmm,

I doubt you would get away with any section 1 air rifle with a barrel sub 1ft. the 30cm rule certainly comes into play on semi rimfires (Roger F had to design the new Volqy barrel at 31cm). LBRs - 30+cm barrel plus wrist brace to extend OAL to >60cm etc.

BUT, MLRs are exempt from the 30cm rule - indeed I was shooting a tiny ML Derringer in .32 recently. Hmmm - who cares? Its an interesting theoretical debate, but, even if they made one, I wouldn't buy it!

Red

 

[FGYT]

yes i agree Red but 22 rimfire has no basis for an exemption of the length rule at all MLs do and the airweapon thing can be confusing
as i say the theoben Fenman has a 7" barrel (approx 17.5cm) and is cpable i think of being turned up over 12ft lbs
Falcon use their 8" pistol action in a rifle stock the pistol used to (and i asume still is for export) be avalible at 24ft lbs

though obviously for airguns a short barrel length is a big handycap for power/air usage and even more so in PCP /CO2 types the ratcatcher can only reach 12ftlbs if you do the upgrades And fit the longer Rabbit Stopper barrel and use heavy pellets

interesting debates (if your into that sort of thing )

mostly interstin again if you consider airguns are more hevily restricted than a lot of other fire erms is you cannot have a an air pistol at 6.1ftlbs but you can have a .44 cal pistol 6 shot revolver using black powder that will take you head clean off

again i maybe reading it wrong but an airgun has tighter carry in public place rules than a shot gun and possibley a Fire arm only riveled by an imitation gun
(ie the 2 least dangerous are the heaviest legislated) but thats another intersting but theoretical discusion to bore you to sleep with

ATB

Duncan