Aboriginal/indigenous Britons?

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tobes01

Full Member
May 4, 2009
1,918
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Hampshire
I'm sure many of us saw a certain someone on a certain topical debate programme last night. I don't want to get into that - so let's not discuss it here - but I am curious about how one might define aboriginal or indigenous Britons? I'm struck that we're the ultimate mongrel race anyway, having spent the past few millenia being invaded or invading others, and of course at some point the island would have been settled by the first humans, so where did they come from?

So by what criteria could one define an indigenous Briton, and how long ago did they exist? Is there really such a thing as a modern indigenous Briton?

[Tony & mods - you're welcome to kill this thread if you feel it's too sensitive]

Tobes
 
Hmmmm.... A very difficult question to answer properly, actually. It depends on whether you define "indigenous" on the basis of ethnicity, culture, or some combination of the two. Also, it rather depends on when you consider the starting point to be.

You could argue that "indigenous" British culture disappeared sometime after the first arrival of the Beaker culture around 2500BC. Or you could argue that culture is always fluid, that indigenous British culture is whatever is going on in Britain at the time, and that the signature of modern indigenous British culture is chicken tikka massala.

Ethnically, it's probably even worse... There were several waves of migration before the Last Ice age, all of whom either left or died out at some point. Whoever first got here after the last glaciation has long since been assimilated into the many subsequent waves of migration.

To my mind, the term "indigenous" is almost meaningless in this context. I think it's only really useful when you have a massive replacement of both population and culture over a relatively short period of time, such as in the European settlement of North America.
 
Well, the first major wave of incomers that we know of, where we can actually see proportionally large numbers of people coming into the country, is really Roman.
So, I suppose that one could consider the Iron Age Tribes of Britain and Ireland as being the indigenous folks.
There are tales in Irish and Welsh about incoming peoples, but there's no real substantial changes that would have shown to be a large influx of people.
Usually, the 'conquerors' marry in to the local hegemony and just settle down within a generation or two.
I'm not saying that there weren't movements of people pre Roman, what I am saying is that numbers wise they seem to be very small. Usually they bring in slightly different methods or styles that allow us to seperate them in the archaeological record, but it is also true to say that indigenous development of new ideas, methods and exploitation of resources could account for some of those changes too. The idea that every 'improvement' originated in the middle east and spread from there has long been debunked.
It's a fascinating topic.

Incidentally, there's a lady in Germany (don't know if she is anthro or archaeo ? ) but she believes she can tell where your family originates by the shape of your feet. Indigenous to here she said had narrow heels, broad ball, high arches, second toes shorter than the big one. :dunno:

Random quote about this......though *Celtic* is such a dreadfully confusing word to use :rolleyes:
Because of the paucity of written records, the scope of Celtic settlement across Europe has not been easy to establish. One feature already mentioned that is strongly associated with Celtic blood lines is red hair; a great majority of people in the world who have red hair will be found to have a Celtic ancestor. But that feature is not uniquely associated with the Celts, so the spread of Celtic people in such areas as present-day Germany and Scandinavia has not been accepted by all authorities. During World War II, a discovery was made that only recently has received meticulous research. A couple of doctors in medical centers in England noticed that there was a feature of Scots and Welsh soldiers wounded in battle that was not present with English, Germans, and other nationalities. The former frequently had a big toe (or great toe) that was the same length as the next toe; all others had great toes markedly longer. They marked that down for research after the war ended, but it was only a few years ago that definitive research was done that has led to a remarkable discovery. They found that there were burial sites across Britain where the skeletons were completely of one ethnic group, such as Celtic burial sites on islands along the Scottish northwest coast, and pre-Celtic burial sites in southern England. Results from studies of those burial sites showed that to a 95 probability Celtic remains had a big toe the same length as, or shorter than, the next toe, while pre-Celtic remains had a big toe longer than the one next to it. That study was expanded to cover burial sites in other parts of Europe and Asia, with the same results. Because the so-called Celtic toe can disappear after many generations of intermarriage, it is not a necessary condition to having a Celtic ancestor, but it is a sufficient one: if a person has the Celtic toe, he or she is almost certain to be of Celtic descent.

That discovery should allow a much better mapping of the extent of Celtic settlement across Europe. The Celtic toe has been found in abundance in southern and central Germany and across western and central Scandinavia. It has been found in present-day descendants of the Dutch Boers who settled in South Africa over a hundred years ago; the only source of that gene is from the Celtic Dutch of two thousand years ago. It could be used to map the Scottish migration route from the central Atlantic down through the Carolinas and into Georgia in the 1700s.
http://www.electricscotland.com/fami...2002/celts.htm

cheers,
Toddy..........definitely got pre-celtic toes :cool:
 
"Celtic people" sets klaxons off in my head... ;)

My big toes are shorter than my second toes. Where do I pick up my torc?
 
Well, I did say.........:D

Funny way to define people though; using their toes.

Kind of one of those dubious ones too, the small bones of feet and hands are frequently poorly represented in the archaeological record, especially among those who practiced excarnation. We have the skulls and long bones (i.e. cave of the eagles) and it is suspected that the phalanges and the like dropped off the platforms that I did hear someone propose were situated ontop of shell middens since sometimes they are found there..........wouldn't swear to that, I have no note of any site records showing this.

I know someone else who swore that the islanders all had longer middle toes since they used them climbing after birds on the cliff faces like the St Kildans did.

cheers,
M
 
I personnely think the person in question on the programme in question was refering to the colour of the ''indigenous Brits'' rather than there direct origins, not trying to bring this point up as such just going along the lines of how and what the person in question has been qouted as saying in the past.
 
I am half Lowland Scottish (on my mothers side), my name has Irish roots but we have only traced my branch of the family back to North Wales C17th.
I am short and stocky with dark hair (what is left of it) and hazel eyes.
My Big Toe is longer than my Second Toe - with narrow heels, high arch, broad ball etc etc to my foot.
I have lived all but 10 years of my life in Wales or in the Welsh Marches.
I am still thought of as a "Mochyn Sais" by tall fair haired Welsh speakers around here!:(

I claim to be an indiginous Brit - will all you wierdy feet please go home now!:D
 


That discovery should allow a much better mapping of the extent of Celtic settlement across Europe. The Celtic toe has been found in abundance in southern and central Germany and across western and central Scandinavia. It has been found in present-day descendants of the Dutch Boers who settled in South Africa over a hundred years ago; the only source of that gene is from the Celtic Dutch of two thousand years ago. It could be used to map the Scottish migration route from the central Atlantic down through the Carolinas and into Georgia in the 1700s. http://www.electricscotland.com/fami...2002/celts.htm

cheers,
Toddy..........definitely got pre-celtic toes


We are a mongrel race, Google Haplogroup A (1) a Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup, over 25 people have been found to have it (so far) It’s found only in Southern Nile region and Southern Africa, oh and Yorkshire. (7 men or 25% of those with Haplogroup A1)
The Yorkshire men are British men with no known African ancestry, now it seems that are all related and are able to trace their lineage to Roman times.

The word 'Viking' is my bug-bear, Viking is a verb a doing word that comes from the word 'víkingr,' meaning to raid or go overseas, they were “Dene” or Norsemen
 
Of course it's not really down to physical appearance these days - Ray's programmes show Australian and New Zealand aboriginals who clearly have 'western' blood as well but consider themselves to be indigenous because of a very particular belief system, often accompanied by certain skills such as tracking.

The other complication is that what we might describe as indigenous Britons would not have considered themselves as such - the idea of Britain as a union of nations is relatively modern, go back 1,000 years and we were a mass of warring tribes and fiefdoms, without even a common language across the island.
 
A very good point Tobes. :)

There is an argument that many of the historical sources which draw a distinction between (presumably native) "ancient Britons" and the "invading" Saxons, Scots, Picts, etc, were either modified or made more prominent in order to legitimise the Norman claims of overlordship over a united Kingdom. It's an interesting idea that the picture we have of an Anglo-Saxon "invasion" might be the result of attempts by later invaders to de-legitimise the prevalent Anglo-Saxon culture of the time. Hence the stories of Arthur defending a unified Britain against the depredations of the Saxons...

It's even more ironic when you realise that the Normans were descended from the "Vikings"... (Sorry Tadpole! ;))
 
i like the idea of a mongrel nation. it would be interesting to see what character traits us brits have which have been inherited from our diverse range of ancestors over the past thousand years.
 
It is widely said that he healthiest and smartest dogs are mongrels.............wonder if it applies to people too ? :D

I think the undoubted fact that it doesn't matter what area you come from, what colour your skin, what length your bones, what language you speak or religion you do or do not practice, and despite claims of this race or other, that all humans can breed successfully across the entire cline, is perhaps the clearest indication; one species.

cheers,
Toddy

p.s. I don't watch tv, but HWMBLT has just informed me of the OP's debate issue.
So far this exploration of our heritage has been interesting :approve: please can we keep the thread to this and not bring in political conflict.
Appreciated :D

atb,
M
 
Cheers toddy and tadpole for getting in there first.

There's lots of evidence to suggest that mainland Britain has had several waves of incomers, as they are known in Yorkshire, and by the the time of 12th century came around it had slowed right down. It became a low percentage of the the total population but there remained influx.

What we did as a nation when we had an empire was take people and culture back into the motherland and make it our own, often then exporting it back out again.

We were seen as the place to run to when times went bad in Europe and then after the 2nd world war we asked members of the commonwealth to come and help us out.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say you could map it all out on a genetic level if you wanted to but the results wouldn't help certain people as the country would be empty afterwards.

Indigenous Australians have been there at least 40000 years on the island, so we must all be incomers.

jbth

P.S. He did look like a bit of a prat last night
 
Big toe shorter than second one, born and raised in Wales of Welsh ancestry. Lived half my life in England but have not noticed any change in the toes...never heard of this before, although does it not suggest that the Celtic "invasion" was a sizeable one rather than just a topping up of the indigenous bronze age/neolithic peoples??

All fascinating stuff...
 
Hmmmm.... A very difficult question to answer properly, actually. It depends on whether you define "indigenous" on the basis of ethnicity, culture, or some combination of the two. Also, it rather depends on when you consider the starting point to be.

You could argue that "indigenous" British culture disappeared sometime after the first arrival of the Beaker culture around 2500BC. Or you could argue that culture is always fluid, that indigenous British culture is whatever is going on in Britain at the time, and that the signature of modern indigenous British culture is chicken tikka massala.

Ethnically, it's probably even worse... There were several waves of migration before the Last Ice age, all of whom either left or died out at some point. Whoever first got here after the last glaciation has long since been assimilated into the many subsequent waves of migration.

To my mind, the term "indigenous" is almost meaningless in this context. I think it's only really useful when you have a massive replacement of both population and culture over a relatively short period of time, such as in the European settlement of North America.

I would totally agree with this, well summed up.
 
i did also read somewhere of a theory that if we werent invaded by romans etc then our technological advances would have been set back another couple of hundred years.

i live in st albans which is built on the site of verulamium, one of the largest towns in roman britain.
our city park is littered with the remains of roman buildings including a very good example of a hypocaust (roman central heating) , now you dont see evidence of native britons doing anything remotely as advanced until centuries afterwards.

but as we started to rely more and more on technology, stone buildings etc we lost our original bushcraft skills that everyone on here is trying to rediscover lol
 
We are about as mixed as the population of any other country on the planet.

The Roman invasion alone brought in a diverse mix of peoples from various parts of their extensive empire.

I think it would be very difficult (and pointless) to pin point the "original" aboriginal Briton.
 
Hmmmmm, well the Romans took the legions back home and Britain reverted to being Britain..........no huge expensive slave powered and supported villas complexes. (British homes didn't need hypocausts, our roofs were better, we learned early to keep the heat *in*. ) No huge public buildings draining taxes from people, no expensive unified state structure.
Instead society reverted to that which it could actually support.

Funny really, how industialisation started here, when we clearly weren't as smart as those old Romans :rolleyes:

The same Romans who didn't approve of industrialisation because it would leave the poor with time on their hands, who did not approve of universal literacy because then the poor would learn to be 'clever' and demanding .

On the other hand it's believed that it was the depradations of the Romans that forged the Iron Age tribes of Britain into powerful kingdoms as a response to their threat. The same kingdoms that the Romans finally built not one massive defended wall, but two of them, to keep them out of 'their' empire ;)

What did the Romans do for us ?
Well, they did leave some very handy piles of nails and some rather nifty archaeology :D ..........and some very bonny dark skinned babies by the looks of some of the Brits :lmao: whom if I understand the root question of this thread properly, are to be considered indigenous.
Define indigenous :rolleyes: :D

cheers,
Toddy
 

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